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Another victory for the lawyers

including wills and probate
Clitheroekid
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Another victory for the lawyers

#415942

Postby Clitheroekid » May 28th, 2021, 9:22 pm

There's an old saying amongst probate lawyers that high fees are justified as the beneficiaries will only squander what's left! There are also what many believe to be apocryphal tales about fighting over estates till the money runs out.

Unfortunately, a recent inheritance dispute is a stark demonstration that such tales aren't purely apocryphal.

The case is Rochford -v- Rochford, decided in the Peterborough County Court in March.

The dispute was over the estate of the late Kenneth Rochford.

The Claimant, Lynne Rochford, was his daughter, and was left £25,000 under Ken's Will. He left £25,000 to one of his sisters, £2,000 to Lynne's son, and the rest of his modest estate (£245,000 in total) to Ilva, his other sister.

However, Lynne pursued a claim under the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975 claiming that the Will didn't make reasonable financial provision for her due to her disability and lack of income.

Lynne was willing to attempt to mediate the dispute rather than go to trial, but Ilva argued that financial provision should not be made as Lynne owned a house worth approximately £500,000 and that her relationship with Ken had been difficult.

Ilva (or perhaps more accurately her solicitors) took the view that the claim was weak and lacking evidence and therefore refused mediation.

The matter eventually ended in a two day trial. The judge found that the fact that Lynne owned a valuable house would not disqualify her, as it was not a liquid asset.

The judge therefore awarded Lynne a lump sum payment of £85,000, in addition to the £25,000 provided for under the Will, so £100,000 in total.

However, this was more than the sum of £56,000 for which Lynne had offered to settle by making what's known as a Part 36 offer. Such an offer can be made by either party to try and force a settlement. The sting in the tale is that where a party has refused a Part 36 offer and then fails to get a better result at trial, the costs consequences can be very unpleasant.

In this case, as a result of Ilva’s refusal to mediate and her failure to beat Lynne's Part 36 offer, in addition to the payment of the additional £85,000 the Court ordered that Ilva pay by way of a penalty:

1. An additional 10% of the amount awarded (£8,500);
2. Interest at 5% p.a. on the entire judgment from August last year, when the offer was made;
3. Payment of Lynne’s costs on an indemnity basis, which basically means a much more generous method of assessment; and
4. Interest on Lynne's costs at 5% p.a. for the same period.

Lynne's costs were said to be £130,000, and although the judge said they seemed high he nevertheless ordered an interim payment of £60,000 towards them. They will probably end up at about £110,000.

So out of the £193,000 that she would have received the unfortunate Ilva would have had to pay within 14 days of the judgment £85,000 judgment + £8,500 penalty + £6,500 interest + £60,000 costs = £160,000.

Once the costs were assessed / agreed there would probably be another £50,000 or so, and then she'd have to pay her own lawyers, probably at least another £50,000.

So what was an inheritance of £193,000 will end up as a debt of £67,000 :shock:

Although Ilva was either very stupid or badly advised it seems an incredibly harsh penalty. Faced with such a claim, and with judges increasingly disposed to interfere with people's Wills, it's increasingly hard to know for lawyers to know what to advise.

One aspect of the case that I find disconcerting is that Lynne was running the case under a Conditional Fee Agreement, which required her to pay a rather extortionate £60,000 by way of a `success fee'. Consequently, the judge had to take this into account when making his order. So although she was awarded an additional £85,000 she would potentially only have received an additional £25,000 (though as it turned out she'll also get the extra £11,000 in penalty and interest).

Nevertheless, it means that her lawyers will probably end up with around £180,000 - 5 times what Lynne will receive.

Legal costs in the UK have become quite out of control, and with legal aid having been effectively destroyed no ordinary person can afford to become involved in serious litigation.

It reminds me of a famous saying by a judge called Sir James Matthew,"In England, justice is open to all - just like the Ritz Hotel".

9873210
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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#415947

Postby 9873210 » May 28th, 2021, 9:44 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:The judge therefore awarded Lynne a lump sum payment of £85,000, in addition to the £25,000 provided for under the Will, so £100,000 in total.

Is that how lawyers do math?

GrahamPlatt
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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#415948

Postby GrahamPlatt » May 28th, 2021, 9:47 pm

To make matters worse, “The judge therefore awarded Lynne a lump sum payment of £85,000, in addition to the £25,000 provided for under the Will...” comes to £110,000

Edit - we both spotted that one!

brightncheerful
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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#416980

Postby brightncheerful » June 3rd, 2021, 9:31 am

Legal costs in the UK have become quite out of control, and with legal aid having been effectively destroyed no ordinary person can afford to become involved in serious litigation.


Currently I am advising a tenant of a small shop whose landlord has opposed renewal of the lease. the client needing a solicitor asked me to recommend a firm of solicitors for the proceedings. I recommended a reputable firm. The solicitor dealing is recently qualified and relatively inexperienced so I have ensured the person's boss is supervising. The tenant is not objecting to the opposition and the only issue is the amount of compensation. The landlord is trying to wriggle out of paying so so likely the matter will have to go to court even though strictly that is unnecessary. The legal costs at £250 an hour, plus vat and disbursements, are mounting and are close to the point at which it could pay my client to waive claim rather than pursue. Ridiculous.

In my view, legal costs have become out of control because of charging by the hour and with no cap on the total amount.

scrumpyjack
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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417002

Postby scrumpyjack » June 3rd, 2021, 10:27 am

brightncheerful wrote:
Legal costs in the UK have become quite out of control, and with legal aid having been effectively destroyed no ordinary person can afford to become involved in serious litigation.


Currently I am advising a tenant of a small shop whose landlord has opposed renewal of the lease. the client needing a solicitor asked me to recommend a firm of solicitors for the proceedings. I recommended a reputable firm. The solicitor dealing is recently qualified and relatively inexperienced so I have ensured the person's boss is supervising. The tenant is not objecting to the opposition and the only issue is the amount of compensation. The landlord is trying to wriggle out of paying so so likely the matter will have to go to court even though strictly that is unnecessary. The legal costs at £250 an hour, plus vat and disbursements, are mounting and are close to the point at which it could pay my client to waive claim rather than pursue. Ridiculous.

In my view, legal costs have become out of control because of charging by the hour and with no cap on the total amount.


I don't think there is anything to stop you employing a solicitor on a fixed fee basis

https://www.jameslegal.co.uk/legal-cost ... gal-costs/

but of course they will prefer an hourly basis as it takes the risk out of it from the lawyers point of view. The trouble is there is no incentive for them to handle the case efficiently or speedily. I have been on the wrong end of this problem, ending up with huge legal costs which fell on the estate of which I was executor. In these situations unfortunately people are driven by emotions rather than rational judgement.

One lesson 'to be learned' (horrible phrase!) is wherever possibly avoid using London lawyers, their hourly rates are double that of provincial lawyers, and of course do your utmost to avoid going to law in the first place. Suggest arbitration perhaps?

I can't really see an alternative as who else should pay? It would hardly be fair for taxpayers generally to have to bear the cost of a dispute between landlord and tenant.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417014

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 3rd, 2021, 10:55 am

scrumpyjack wrote:I can't really see an alternative as who else should pay? It would hardly be fair for taxpayers generally to have to bear the cost of a dispute between landlord and tenant.

How about this for an alternative?

Instead of a judge who cannot get involved nor advise on issues like what can/can't be considered relevant, an arbitrator with the legal authority of the judge but whose job it also is to ascertain facts and legalities, thus replacing the need for parties to employ lawyers they can't afford. That reduces the number of fat-cat lawyers (or legal teams) to be paid from three to one.

Hmm, now you can mention it, I think I see why the Establishment wouldn't want to accept that ...

scrumpyjack
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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417018

Postby scrumpyjack » June 3rd, 2021, 11:04 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:I can't really see an alternative as who else should pay? It would hardly be fair for taxpayers generally to have to bear the cost of a dispute between landlord and tenant.

How about this for an alternative?

Instead of a judge who cannot get involved nor advise on issues like what can/can't be considered relevant, an arbitrator with the legal authority of the judge but whose job it also is to ascertain facts and legalities, thus replacing the need for parties to employ lawyers they can't afford. That reduces the number of fat-cat lawyers (or legal teams) to be paid from three to one.

Hmm, now you can mention it, I think I see why the Establishment wouldn't want to accept that ...


Yes France and some other countries have 'Examining Magistrates' though there must be problems as some countries that used to have them, abolished it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examining_magistrate

IANAL but I think the rights of a business tenant whose lease is not renewed on certain grounds are quite clearly defined
https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en- ... t-act-1954

Of course lawyers may not be too keen on anything that reduces the amount paid to lawyers

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417022

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 3rd, 2021, 11:16 am

scrumpyjack wrote:Yes France and some other countries have 'Examining Magistrates' though there must be problems as some countries that used to have them, abolished it.

Well, obviously, there's a serious problem. Where's that gravy-train for lawyers some rival countries have? It's not fair!

(yeah, I don't suppose that's quite how they expressed it ..)

Mike88
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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417028

Postby Mike88 » June 3rd, 2021, 11:34 am

Solicitors get paid irrespective of the outcome. Why are they not paid on results and not on the amount of work undertaken? That at least might persuade the legal profession from encouraging their clients to pursue lost causes.

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417075

Postby brightncheerful » June 3rd, 2021, 1:56 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:I can't really see an alternative as who else should pay? It would hardly be fair for taxpayers generally to have to bear the cost of a dispute between landlord and tenant.

How about this for an alternative?

Instead of a judge who cannot get involved nor advise on issues like what can/can't be considered relevant, an arbitrator with the legal authority of the judge but whose job it also is to ascertain facts and legalities, thus replacing the need for parties to employ lawyers they can't afford. That reduces the number of fat-cat lawyers (or legal teams) to be paid from three to one.

Hmm, now you can mention it, I think I see why the Establishment wouldn't want to accept that ...



Why do you think an arbitrator would be any cheaper?

A judge in a court of law is paid a salary by the state so from the parties' perspective is free of charge. An arbitrator's costs are paid for by one or all of the parties depending upon the arbitrator's award on costs, if the parties' responsibility for the arbitrator's costs is not agreed by the parties themselves.


Under the Arbitration Act 1996, an arbitrator has the legal authority of the judge but can apply to the court for a declaration on a point of law if the arbitrator is unable or unwilling to decide or the legal advice the arbitrator is entitled to seek is uncertain.

As an arbitrator can only decide on the evidence presented, albeit an arbitrator is entitled to take the initiative (adopt a robust approach) provided the arbitrator gives the parties an opportunity to comment on any findings the arbitrator makes off his/her own bat,

As for leaving it to the arbitrator to decide without any input from the parties, an arbitrator can proceed ex parte but that is very risky from the parties' perspective> the arbitrator might overlook or not be aware of the subtleties and nuances. an arbitrator cannot be sued for negligence. There is provision for appeal against an arbitrator's award but on limited grounds, also leave to appeal would first have to be granted by the court.

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417377

Postby supremetwo » June 4th, 2021, 6:10 pm

Mike88 wrote:Solicitors get paid irrespective of the outcome. Why are they not paid on results and not on the amount of work undertaken? That at least might persuade the legal profession from encouraging their clients to pursue lost causes.

Never heard of no-win=no fee lawyers?

Mind you, before one of those takes it on, their scrutiny of your likelihood of success will be very thorough and their percentage of an award that you get from that success will be high!

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417378

Postby Mike4 » June 4th, 2021, 6:23 pm

supremetwo wrote:
Mike88 wrote:Solicitors get paid irrespective of the outcome. Why are they not paid on results and not on the amount of work undertaken? That at least might persuade the legal profession from encouraging their clients to pursue lost causes.

Never heard of no-win=no fee lawyers?

Mind you, before one of those takes it on, their scrutiny of your likelihood of success will be very thorough and their percentage of an award that you get from that success will be high!


This always strikes me as an excellent advantage of offering your case to a NWNF lawyer - a dispassionate assessment of your chances. If they turn you down, you probably don't have that strong a case. If they offer to accept your case, run a mile and pay an ordinary lawyer their hourly rate for the slam-dunk the NWNF lawyer sees your case as, an save yourself a pile.

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417383

Postby richlist » June 4th, 2021, 6:55 pm

My very limited experience of the High Court & Appeal Courts a few years back was a real eyeopener. I remember we had to get insurance to cover us if we lost the case and the premium was based on our chance of winning. Why can't other courts operate in the same way ?

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417399

Postby Mike88 » June 4th, 2021, 8:48 pm

supremetwo wrote:
Mike88 wrote:Solicitors get paid irrespective of the outcome. Why are they not paid on results and not on the amount of work undertaken? That at least might persuade the legal profession from encouraging their clients to pursue lost causes.


Never heard of no-win=no fee lawyers?



Of course. But there are very many cases where NWNF is not applicable such as the example in the original post. I doubt whether many, if any, NWNF lawyers agree to pursue hopeless cases and I doubt whether there are many professions that get rewarded for bad advice.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417440

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 5th, 2021, 10:53 am

Mike4 wrote:This always strikes me as an excellent advantage of offering your case to a NWNF lawyer - a dispassionate assessment of your chances. If they turn you down, you probably don't have that strong a case. If they offer to accept your case, run a mile and pay an ordinary lawyer their hourly rate for the slam-dunk the NWNF lawyer sees your case as, an save yourself a pile.

So take your business from the lawyer who is motivated to win your case and give it to one who isn't (unless of course you're a regular litigant with repeat business).

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417443

Postby Mike4 » June 5th, 2021, 11:12 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Mike4 wrote:This always strikes me as an excellent advantage of offering your case to a NWNF lawyer - a dispassionate assessment of your chances. If they turn you down, you probably don't have that strong a case. If they offer to accept your case, run a mile and pay an ordinary lawyer their hourly rate for the slam-dunk the NWNF lawyer sees your case as, an save yourself a pile.

So take your business from the lawyer who is motivated to win your case and give it to one who isn't (unless of course you're a regular litigant with repeat business).


Yes agreed that is a risk, but then surely such superior individuals as lawyers would be always motivated by their desire to see justice done first and foremost, rather than such base instincts as profit...

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417454

Postby JamesMuenchen » June 5th, 2021, 12:54 pm

How about insurance?

In Germany its pretty standard to have your own personal legal insurance and 3rd party indemnity. Not a UK thing?

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417456

Postby Lootman » June 5th, 2021, 1:02 pm

JamesMuenchen wrote:How about insurance?

In Germany its pretty standard to have your own personal legal insurance and 3rd party indemnity. Not a UK thing?

I had litigation insurance when I was doing business in the US. It covered my legal costs, and in some cases the judgement/award itself.

But it was designed to protect me as a defendant. It didn't cover the cost of me suing someone else, a I recall.

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417469

Postby JamesMuenchen » June 5th, 2021, 2:01 pm

Lootman wrote:I had litigation insurance when I was doing business in the US. It covered my legal costs, and in some cases the judgement/award itself.

But it was designed to protect me as a defendant. It didn't cover the cost of me suing someone else, a I recall.

Mine does, I have a suit against someone running at the moment.

I guess that makes people a bit more litigious, hence the need for 3rd party liability as we'll.

Doesn't cost much though, and we'll worth it in my view.

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Re: Another victory for the lawyers

#417474

Postby richlist » June 5th, 2021, 2:26 pm

On anything other than a relatively small claim or defence it makes perfect sense to have insurance. After all, you may win the case but have costs awarded against you......and you might need deep pockets as a result. Hence the rules with the high court action.


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