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RBS probate rip-off

including wills and probate
Clitheroekid
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RBS probate rip-off

#429802

Postby Clitheroekid » July 23rd, 2021, 12:55 am

In the course of obtaining some information from RBS about a deceased's estate, I noticed an ad for their estate administration service.

Their fees are extortionate! :shock:

It starts off with:

Administration fee
A set up fee of £1,500 plus an additional fee charged at a rate of 2.5% on the gross value of the Estate up to a maximum total fee of £15,000.


And just as you were thinking blimey, that's a bit steep ...

All fees quoted will be subject to VAT

Then as if that wasn't bad enough, in the small print it says:

Special fees in Estates
A reasonable additional charge, according to the work involved, may be made for dealing with a business, joint property, landed property, assets abroad, valuations, the compilation of accounts and HM Revenue & Customs forms, Estates or other Trusts with which the Trust, or Estate may be concerned.

And as if that wasn't enough it goes on:

The Bank will normally instruct a solicitor, or its own legal department, to perform legal work in connection with the Estate and, where appropriate, stockbrokers, accountants and other commercial or professional agents. All charges and expenses so incurred will be payable from the Estate and are not included in the Bank’s fees.

Even the starting charge is far too much, but at the very least you'd expect it to include all solicitors' fees and so on.

So in a fairly ordinary estate involving a £450k house and £50k in a couple of bank accounts they would charge £14,000 + VAT (£16,800) even before any solicitors etc got involved. And God only knows where the fees would end up if you were sufficiently inconsiderate as to leave any business assets / joint property etc.

These fees are probably ten times what many solicitors would charge. I really can't understand why Trading Standards or the FCA or some other regulator doesn't step in and prohibit such daylight robbery of - often vulnerable - people.

GoSeigen
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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429835

Postby GoSeigen » July 23rd, 2021, 8:10 am

Clitheroekid wrote:In the course of obtaining some information from RBS about a deceased's estate, I noticed an ad for their estate administration service.

Their fees are extortionate! :shock:

It starts off with:

Administration fee
A set up fee of £1,500 plus an additional fee charged at a rate of 2.5% on the gross value of the Estate up to a maximum total fee of £15,000.


And just as you were thinking blimey, that's a bit steep ...

All fees quoted will be subject to VAT

Then as if that wasn't bad enough, in the small print it says:

Special fees in Estates
A reasonable additional charge, according to the work involved, may be made for dealing with a business, joint property, landed property, assets abroad, valuations, the compilation of accounts and HM Revenue & Customs forms, Estates or other Trusts with which the Trust, or Estate may be concerned.

And as if that wasn't enough it goes on:

The Bank will normally instruct a solicitor, or its own legal department, to perform legal work in connection with the Estate and, where appropriate, stockbrokers, accountants and other commercial or professional agents. All charges and expenses so incurred will be payable from the Estate and are not included in the Bank’s fees.

Even the starting charge is far too much, but at the very least you'd expect it to include all solicitors' fees and so on.

So in a fairly ordinary estate involving a £450k house and £50k in a couple of bank accounts they would charge £14,000 + VAT (£16,800) even before any solicitors etc got involved. And God only knows where the fees would end up if you were sufficiently inconsiderate as to leave any business assets / joint property etc.

These fees are probably ten times what many solicitors would charge. I really can't understand why Trading Standards or the FCA or some other regulator doesn't step in and prohibit such daylight robbery of - often vulnerable - people.


It's majority owned by the government. How else are they going to recover the enormous capital investment they made to save RBS and its depositors, customers and investors thirteen years ago?

GS

Dod101
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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429852

Postby Dod101 » July 23rd, 2021, 9:02 am

It is surely well known by many reasonably savvy people (that is most of us I hope!) that asking a bank to act as the agent for winding up an estate is very unwise because of the costs involved. The trouble is that as CK says, it is the financially unsavvy people (and those that can last afford most likely) who will leave matters to their bank. 'Twas ever thus.

Dod

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429853

Postby Lootman » July 23rd, 2021, 9:15 am

Dod101 wrote:It is surely well known by many reasonably savvy people (that is most of us I hope!) that asking a bank to act as the agent for winding up an estate is very unwise because of the costs involved. The trouble is that as CK says, it is the financially unsavvy people (and those that can last afford most likely) who will leave matters to their bank. 'Twas ever thus.

It is one thing to avoid using a bank if you are the executor. It is quite another thing when the friendly local bank manager advises a customer to put the bank as the executor in their will. Because in that case it will be near impossible to get them to stand down because they would not be legally required to.

Any bank employee who recommends to a client that he/she chooses the bank to write their will and be the executor should be fired for malpractice and conflict of interest. Off the record they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

stewamax
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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429863

Postby stewamax » July 23rd, 2021, 9:47 am

Lootman wrote:It is one thing to avoid using a bank if you are the executor. It is quite another thing when the friendly local bank manager advises a customer to put the bank as the executor in their will. Because in that case it will be near impossible to get them to stand down because they would not be legally required to.
Any bank employee who recommends to a client that he/she chooses the bank to write their will and be the executor should be fired for malpractice and conflict of interest. Off the record they should be hung, drawn and quartered.


Double recs if possible; and my bold, italics and red.

Dod101
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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429865

Postby Dod101 » July 23rd, 2021, 9:52 am

Lootman wrote:
Dod101 wrote:It is surely well known by many reasonably savvy people (that is most of us I hope!) that asking a bank to act as the agent for winding up an estate is very unwise because of the costs involved. The trouble is that as CK says, it is the financially unsavvy people (and those that can last afford most likely) who will leave matters to their bank. 'Twas ever thus.

It is one thing to avoid using a bank if you are the executor. It is quite another thing when the friendly local bank manager advises a customer to put the bank as the executor in their will. Because in that case it will be near impossible to get them to stand down because they would not be legally required to.

Any bank employee who recommends to a client that he/she chooses the bank to write their will and be the executor should be fired for malpractice and conflict of interest. Off the record they should be hung, drawn and quartered.


Agreed. Fortunately friendly or otherwise bank managers are nowadays in short supply but those that use the bank branches which are still open tend to be the older more vulnerable ones I think. I have not been in a bank branch for years, doing all my banking online. We have no bank branch in my nearest village/small town.

Dod

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429867

Postby Dod101 » July 23rd, 2021, 9:57 am

stewamax wrote:
Lootman wrote:It is one thing to avoid using a bank if you are the executor. It is quite another thing when the friendly local bank manager advises a customer to put the bank as the executor in their will. Because in that case it will be near impossible to get them to stand down because they would not be legally required to.
Any bank employee who recommends to a client that he/she chooses the bank to write their will and be the executor should be fired for malpractice and conflict of interest. Off the record they should be hung, drawn and quartered.


Double recs if possible; and my bold, italics and red.


It is though an interesting question if taken seriously because all the bank employee would simply be doing is his job. He is presumably not a financial adviser in the FCA sense of the word. A better answer would surely be to ban banks from acting as executor but on what grounds?

Dod

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429921

Postby didds » July 23rd, 2021, 12:48 pm

Dod101 wrote:, it is the financially unsavvy people (and those that can last afford most likely) who will leave matters to their bank. 'Twas ever thus.
Dod


Often allied to the msisconception that "I've had my account with Bank X for 60 years so they'll look after a loyal customer".

My mum is a classic example... she has some decent levels of savings all tied up in 5 year bonds - she is 84 ... - with her "60 year account bank". As they are coming to an end she toddles off to the bank to discuss what to do with it next. I (and my brother) have explained a zillion times that they can only offer what THEY offer, and won't obviously suggest any deals by any other institutions even if they are better. She just doesn't see/get it.

It's her call of course. And other institutions may well not offer anything better - but she isnt even giving herself a chance, even if its to ask me and my brother to look out for other options).

As Dod says - "it was ever thus"

didds

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429955

Postby Gersemi » July 23rd, 2021, 3:27 pm

Dod101 wrote:
stewamax wrote:
Lootman wrote:It is one thing to avoid using a bank if you are the executor. It is quite another thing when the friendly local bank manager advises a customer to put the bank as the executor in their will. Because in that case it will be near impossible to get them to stand down because they would not be legally required to.
Any bank employee who recommends to a client that he/she chooses the bank to write their will and be the executor should be fired for malpractice and conflict of interest. Off the record they should be hung, drawn and quartered.


Double recs if possible; and my bold, italics and red.


It is though an interesting question if taken seriously because all the bank employee would simply be doing is his job. He is presumably not a financial adviser in the FCA sense of the word. A better answer would surely be to ban banks from acting as executor but on what grounds?

Dod


The mischief to me seems to be a person acting as a professional executor (as apposed to a family member or personal friend of the deceased) to do a job that they are not qualified to do as - as evidenced by the fact they reserve the right to consult - and charge an additonal fee for the services of - a solicitor. What service exactly are they providing for these extortionate fees?

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429957

Postby pje16 » July 23rd, 2021, 3:52 pm

I did my mum's one myself and I had no prior knowledge other then being quite savvy about finance
you can get the forms here
https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... -tax-forms
PS She did have a will which makes it MUCH easier

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429961

Postby Gersemi » July 23rd, 2021, 4:05 pm

pje16 wrote:I did my mum's one myself and I had no prior knowledge other then being quite savvy about finance
you can get the forms here
https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... -tax-forms
PS She did have a will which makes it MUCH easier


You have to make a will to appoint RBS as executor (or any executor for that matter).

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429965

Postby pje16 » July 23rd, 2021, 4:25 pm

Gersemi wrote:You have to make a will to appoint RBS as executor (or any executor for that matter).

If someone dies intestate it is done by a personal representative known as an administrator

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429966

Postby Dod101 » July 23rd, 2021, 4:30 pm

Not that I suppose it would usually matter for a family situation, although knowing some families........but we should remember that acting in the role of am executor can incur quite serious consequences if you do not do your job correctly, so lawyers and other professional executors are not doing the job without monetary risk. That needs to be factored in to the time element which goes in to 'just filling in a few forms'. I am not saying that RBS seems to be over egging the matter but all the same......

Dod

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#429998

Postby Gersemi » July 23rd, 2021, 8:31 pm

pje16 wrote:
Gersemi wrote:You have to make a will to appoint RBS as executor (or any executor for that matter).

If someone dies intestate it is done by a personal representative known as an administrator


Or Administratrix - I've been one of them. In that case the estate was very simple (one bank account and no debts), so it wasn't a hard job.

Clitheroekid
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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#430002

Postby Clitheroekid » July 23rd, 2021, 8:49 pm

Gersemi wrote:
pje16 wrote:
Gersemi wrote:You have to make a will to appoint RBS as executor (or any executor for that matter).

If someone dies intestate it is done by a personal representative known as an administrator


Or Administratrix - I've been one of them. In that case the estate was very simple (one bank account and no debts), so it wasn't a hard job.

To save people from Googling, an Administratrix is the formal (though nowadays never used) name for a female Administrator. And yes, a female Executor is formally an Executrix, the plural being Executrices - why did they ever bother?

As the only other word I can think of (which may say a lot about my mind!) using -ix to denote a female is dominatrix I assume the plural is dominatrices, which I can only describe as a somewhat tortuous word! ;)

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Re: RBS probate rip-off

#442259

Postby Howard » September 14th, 2021, 6:05 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:In the course of obtaining some information from RBS about a deceased's estate, I noticed an ad for their estate administration service.

Their fees are extortionate! :shock:


[/i]
And as if that wasn't enough it goes on:

The Bank will normally instruct a solicitor, or its own legal department, to perform legal work in connection with the Estate and, where appropriate, stockbrokers, accountants and other commercial or professional agents. All charges and expenses so incurred will be payable from the Estate and are not included in the Bank’s fees.

Even the starting charge is far too much, but at the very least you'd expect it to include all solicitors' fees and so on.

So in a fairly ordinary estate involving a £450k house and £50k in a couple of bank accounts they would charge £14,000 + VAT (£16,800) even before any solicitors etc got involved. And God only knows where the fees would end up if you were sufficiently inconsiderate as to leave any business assets / joint property etc.

These fees are probably ten times what many solicitors would charge. I really can't understand why Trading Standards or the FCA or some other regulator doesn't step in and prohibit such daylight robbery of - often vulnerable - people.


Hope you don't mind my suggesting this but I guess your comments on the thread linked below would be most helpful. It deals with the aftermath of a bank handling probate.

viewtopic.php?p=441979#p441979

regards

Howard


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