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Serving papers

including wills and probate
Paupertas
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Serving papers

#440547

Postby Paupertas » September 8th, 2021, 10:05 am

I just wondering why the papers need to be 'served' - why not use register post?

Prince Andrew bolts for Balmoral in bid to avoid being served sex assault papers


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16078341/ ... -balmoral/

(Not interested in discussing the case in any way - just interested in the legal process)

pje16
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Re: Serving papers

#440550

Postby pje16 » September 8th, 2021, 10:12 am

I guess if they are posted you can deny they never made it you as anyone can sign for and open it
whereas if they stuff it into your hand.... (not the legal definition, but you know what I mean) :lol:
PS doesn't he look dodgy in the Suns photos :o

9873210
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Re: Serving papers

#440589

Postby 9873210 » September 8th, 2021, 12:12 pm

The papers are being served by US Lawyers under US* court rules. The rules don't allow for service by first class mail or registered post. Probably for some quaint historical reason, but their lawyers don't wear wigs. On balance personal service has more entertainment value than horsehair. See also John Cox who was served at the California Gubernatorial debate.

* Probably the rules of a particular state rather than the US per se.

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Re: Serving papers

#440593

Postby pje16 » September 8th, 2021, 12:22 pm

from this page
https://www.diemlegal.co.uk/court-paper ... %e2%80%a8/
"Third-party service
– The documents could be served to a close friend, family member, employer or even neighbour. The standard service process applies i.e. the documents have to be physically handed over and proof of delivery obtained. The main difference is that the person being handed the documents then becomes legally responsible for ensuring the recipient receives the documents. It is therefore important to check that the third-party individual has regular contact with the recipient."

So in this case drop them into
Pizza Express in Aberdeen :lol:

Lootman
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Re: Serving papers

#440608

Postby Lootman » September 8th, 2021, 1:20 pm

9873210 wrote:The papers are being served by US Lawyers under US* court rules. The rules don't allow for service by first class mail or registered post.

Although personal service of legal papers is the norm in the US there is provision for cases where a person deliberately avoids personal service, say by hiding. The so-called "substitute service" involves sending the papers through the post AND attaching a copy at the last known address of the subject. This is called "nail and mail" and is accepted by courts, although typically the subject has more time to respond in those cases.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Serving papers

#440637

Postby UncleEbenezer » September 8th, 2021, 2:45 pm

pje16 wrote:from this page
https://www.diemlegal.co.uk/court-paper ... %e2%80%a8/
"Third-party service
– The documents could be served to a close friend, family member, employer or even neighbour. The standard service process applies i.e. the documents have to be physically handed over and proof of delivery obtained. The main difference is that the person being handed the documents then becomes legally responsible for ensuring the recipient receives the documents. It is therefore important to check that the third-party individual has regular contact with the recipient."

So in this case drop them into
Pizza Express in Aberdeen :lol:


That could be a harsh responsibility to put onto some innocent third-party, who probably doesn't realise what (s)he is taking on. What happens when it all blows up?

I've idly wondered about responsibility when accepting a delivery for a neighbour. Happily no problems there - yet!

pje16
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Re: Serving papers

#440641

Postby pje16 » September 8th, 2021, 2:58 pm

If it is done that way I imagine whoever delivers it explains the situation and I would expect that you are under no obligations to accept
unless you free extra toppings on your pizza :D
btw in my road we all take packages in for each other as we all get on like friends

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Serving papers

#440646

Postby UncleEbenezer » September 8th, 2021, 3:14 pm

pje16 wrote:If it is done that way I imagine whoever delivers it explains the situation and I would expect that you are under no obligations to accept
unless you free extra toppings on your pizza :D
btw in my road we all take packages in for each other as we all get on like friends


Explains the situation?

If I take in something for a neighbour, I don't expect the courier to know details of what's inside, and I'm not listening for an explanation. I just expect to keep an eye open for when they're in and take it round. And legal processes are an area notorious for explaining nothing even if I were listening for it and not - say - rushing to get back to the kitchen, the phone, or whatever else that knock on the door interrupted!

btw, in my current home we get a lot of confusion. House numbers don't go with the road but with the sites either side of it, and my house is one of two in the postcode having the same number. Just a couple of days ago it was a confused chap trying to deliver a takeaway!

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Re: Serving papers

#440653

Postby pje16 » September 8th, 2021, 3:22 pm

explains the situation
Delivery person (i don't imagine it's the postie) has the papers for Mr A, he's not in, so say his housemate, Mr B, offers to taKe them
delivery guy tells him they are court documents etc
I don't KNOW about this I just found a site that gave the method

I'll see you and raise you, we have THREE No.1s in our reasonably short road :)

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Re: Serving papers

#440655

Postby UncleEbenezer » September 8th, 2021, 3:31 pm

pje16 wrote:I'll see you and raise you, we have THREE No.1s in our reasonably short road :)

:lol:
But are they the identical postcode?

Mine is the only one that's actually on the road. The other sharing its number is up quite a lot of steps, and you don't notice there's a pair of houses there until you've had it pointed out.

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Re: Serving papers

#440657

Postby pje16 » September 8th, 2021, 3:36 pm

All the same postcode
In fact I live at No.2 and both houses to my right are No.1 :o
the other one is a church, so not much confusion there

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Re: Serving papers

#441128

Postby Clitheroekid » September 9th, 2021, 10:24 pm

pje16 wrote:from this page
https://www.diemlegal.co.uk/court-paper ... %e2%80%a8/
"Third-party service
– The documents could be served to a close friend, family member, employer or even neighbour. The standard service process applies i.e. the documents have to be physically handed over and proof of delivery obtained. The main difference is that the person being handed the documents then becomes legally responsible for ensuring the recipient receives the documents. It is therefore important to check that the third-party individual has regular contact with the recipient."

This is extremely misleading, as it gives the impression that this is a perfectly normal method of service, which it emphatically is not - in fact I've never heard of anyone being served in this manner.

The vast majority of court documents in England don't need to be served personally, and are simply served by post, so this question rarely arises. One exception is a bankruptcy petition, and if personal service isn't possible the creditor has to apply to the court for an order for substituted service, explaining their efforts to effect personal service, and suggesting alternatives.

It's only at this stage that it may become possible to effect service by means of a newspaper ad or possibly through social media.

However, the basic point is that the creditor needs the court's permission to serve documents other than personally, and I frankly can't imagine a court making an order that service on a third party would be valid substituted service, as it would be imposing a quite onerous and unjustifiable burden on that person.

In the present case, as the court papers have been issued in New York the rules for service would be governed by the New York civil procedure rules, not by the English ones, and they presumably require personal service, though I've no doubt they will have similar rules if personal service proves impossible.

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Re: Serving papers

#441130

Postby Lootman » September 9th, 2021, 10:33 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:In the present case, as the court papers have been issued in New York the rules for service would be governed by the New York civil procedure rules, not by the English ones, and they presumably require personal service, though I've no doubt they will have similar rules if personal service proves impossible.

Indeed. As I indicated above although personal service is the norm in most, if not all, US counties and states, there is a provison both for substituted service ("nail and mail") as well as physical service to a person closely connected to the recipient. And ultimately by posting to a newspaper in the same jurisdiction as the last known address of the recipient.

Of course, the more indirect the method of service, the more probable that the recipient might later be able to win a motion to have the judgement waived on the grounds that they did not know anything about it and were therefore denied due process.

The UK method of assuming that the summons, subpoena or whatever arrived in the post always struck me as odd.

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Re: Serving papers

#441138

Postby Clitheroekid » September 9th, 2021, 11:21 pm

Lootman wrote:The UK method of assuming that the summons, subpoena or whatever arrived in the post always struck me as odd.

Au contraire, it's a rare example of common sense being applied to civil procedure.

99.9% of correctly addressed mail does reach the recipient, so it would be utterly ludicrous to require court documents to be served by the massively more expensive and time consuming method of personal service.

And in practice the failure of postal service is hardly ever an issue in court proceedings.

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Re: Serving papers

#441371

Postby pje16 » September 10th, 2021, 9:37 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:uote]
This is extremely misleading, as it gives the impression that this is a perfectly normal method of service, which it emphatically is not - in fact I've never heard of anyone being served in this manner.

"they were served on 27 August, being left with a police officer at Windsor's Royal Lodge."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58523119

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Re: Serving papers

#441379

Postby Lootman » September 10th, 2021, 10:20 pm

pje16 wrote:
Clitheroekid wrote:This is extremely misleading, as it gives the impression that this is a perfectly normal method of service, which it emphatically is not - in fact I've never heard of anyone being served in this manner.

"they were served on 27 August, being left with a police officer at Windsor's Royal Lodge."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58523119

It will now be up to a US judge to rule that the defendant was duly served. Given the publicity around all this I cannot imagine that any judge would decide that somehow magically Andrew was completely unaware of this action against him.

Sounds like he is going to ignore it, which in turn would mean a default judgement will be entered against him, along with whatever monetary award the judge or jury decides.

Then the process of collection will begin. Will Andrew add the indignity of dodging debt collectors in the same way as he ignored process servers?

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Re: Serving papers

#441393

Postby UncleEbenezer » September 11th, 2021, 1:30 am

Lootman wrote:
pje16 wrote:
Clitheroekid wrote:This is extremely misleading, as it gives the impression that this is a perfectly normal method of service, which it emphatically is not - in fact I've never heard of anyone being served in this manner.

"they were served on 27 August, being left with a police officer at Windsor's Royal Lodge."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58523119

It will now be up to a US judge to rule that the defendant was duly served. Given the publicity around all this I cannot imagine that any judge would decide that somehow magically Andrew was completely unaware of this action against him.

Sounds like he is going to ignore it, which in turn would mean a default judgement will be entered against him, along with whatever monetary award the judge or jury decides.

Then the process of collection will begin. Will Andrew add the indignity of dodging debt collectors in the same way as he ignored process servers?


He says this, they say that. Most of us have no idea who, if anyone, is telling the truth when they're in conflict.

But how does a US court have the jurisdiction to do this? Surely if a US court wants a Brit, they apply to extradite him? And in the case of royalty, that would seem to raise potential constitutional issues!

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Re: Serving papers

#441394

Postby 9873210 » September 11th, 2021, 2:06 am

It' a civil matter. Extradition does not apply.

The alleged misbehaviour took place in US, hence US jurisdiction over the civil matter. Also Andrew is not a head of state or any other position recognized by the US.

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Re: Serving papers

#441474

Postby Lootman » September 11th, 2021, 2:53 pm

9873210 wrote:It' a civil matter. Extradition does not apply.

Indeed. The aim here is a monetary award for the victim, and to create a court record of Andrew's liability for the incident.

The beauty of a civil court case is that the verdict does not have to be beyond reasonable doubt like in a criminal case. But rather just "more probable than not". So if the jury (and juries are common for civil trials in the US) decide it is 51% likely that Andrew did this then Andrew will lose the case. If Andrew fails to respond he will lose the case by default - there is no presumption of innocence in a civil case, and no right to silence.

A similar thing happened in the OJ Simpson case. Although OJ somehow managed to be acquitted in the criminal case, his widow's family then sued him in civil court, The jury awarded them a settlement - I think it was $2 or $3 million.

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Re: Serving papers

#441482

Postby scrumpyjack » September 11th, 2021, 3:46 pm

It seems very likely he is doing what his lawyers tell him to, so they must have thought through what was the best course of action for him.


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