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Father's will

including wills and probate
GoSeigen
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Father's will

#456118

Postby GoSeigen » November 6th, 2021, 7:06 pm

Sorry this post will be long as I wish to give enough detail to be advised appropriately. Small changes made to protect peoples' identities.

Précis: About a year ago my father, having been got divorced a couple of years earlier, made a new will without informing me but with the knowledge and aid of his ex-wife which, he says, leaves everything to her and none to me or my disabled brother (who is in lifelong care). My father has suffered deteriorating mental health for most of this year and told me about the will soon after showing obvious symptoms of dementia. I asked for a copy, which he said his ex-wife holds but he/they have not sent me one.

What do I make of this and is there anything I should do while he has his remaining marbles?


Detail and background:

-father and my mother divorced c. 30 years ago. They had two children, me and brother who has a severe brain injury.
-father remarried current wife about 25 years ago. She worked about 8 years till her retirement; he didn't have a steady job. Neither had a private pension.
-They spent several years abroad, then returned to the UK.
-Father suffered symptoms of progressively worsening social withdrawal to the point about 4 years back where they could not really go out together. Counselling didn't work/he refused to co-operate and she ended up doing everything for him, hence
-his gregarious wife divorced him; he didn't want the divorce but it was amicable with all assets divided 50:50; they moved into separate homes albeit in the same village; previous wills voided by divorce.
-I offered him to come and live with my famiy some 50 miles away but he insisted on remaining in his local area/keeping his independence
-father had few friends and poor life management and housekeeping skills; ex-wife continued to support him regularly having him round to dinner and helping where he needed it
-my family moved abroad c. 2 years ago
-about a year ago without my knowledge father and his ex made wills and powers of attorney using services of (as far as I can tell) a one-man band will-writing business.
-My father -- three months later when his mental heath suddenly took a dive -- told me about the will and that it leaves everything to his ex if he predeceases her. But he said he thought his ex would leave her estate to us his sons when she died. I said she had no obligation to do so unless the will included a trust mechanism. His explanation of the will was very vague and unclear so I asked for a copy. He said ex held the only copy and would ask her, but a copy was never forthcoming despite reminding them in both their presence a few weeks later.
-I must admit this made me a bit wary, but not because I have reason to suspect foul play, just that the whole thing seemed weird; I have been on pretty good terms with both of them; it seems normal for a will to benefit children and not ex partners e.g. my wife's parents were also divorced and both left everything to their two daughters. Also my father had always involved me in his financial affairs: e.g. his divorce and informing me of previous wills.
-very recently ex-wife contacts me and asks me to sign a deed granting PoA for health and welfare to her and me (as reserve) in my father's affairs because she wishes to register it. As I wasn't involved in its drafting I've never seen the text of this document or even knew I was named. The adviser clearly hadn't made sure I was informed or asked to sign it. I refuse to sign the document sight unseen which annoys ex wife who doesn't see the point in such legal niceties as reading a document before signing it ("I've done it many times why can't you, you are delaying matters and causing unnecessary work").
-father's mental health is by now quite poor and I'm not sure he has capacity to make complex decisions (but perhaps he can when lucid??).
-father's estate value will be low hundred thousands. My disabled brother is supported by a substantial insurance settlement and I am well enough off not to need an inheritance and still live abroad; this is about the weird dynamics and whether my father has been thinking straight.
-father's ex has no children of her own and no new partner that I'm aware of.


So what I'm mulling over is: at this point, while my father still has some remaining capacity, should I:
a. do anything to check my father's wishes were met in the wording of his will; that undue pressure was not put on him and that he had capacity at the time?
b. do anything to ensure the advisor was properly qualified and did his job properly when advising on the wills and powers of attorney?
c. insist on seeing a copy of the will?
d. push back on ex-wife's demands and exploit the need for my signature on the POA to ensure points a. to c. can be done?

Or do I just leave my father to his own devices and let his ex sort him out?


This is partly legal and partly Family Fools territory; sorry it's so long, any thoughts on those issues?


GS

GoSeigen
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IEP

#456533

Postby GoSeigen » November 8th, 2021, 1:35 pm

The advisor has the letters IEP after his name. Anyone know what IEP stands for.

Also in England do practitioners offering advice on wills and powers of attorney need to have any sort of qualification or membership or is it a free-for-all?


GS

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Re: Father's will

#456537

Postby pje16 » November 8th, 2021, 1:44 pm

as a educated guess
Institute of Employability Professionals

CAB
might be able to help and that's free
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/famil ... -and-wills

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Re: Father's will

#456750

Postby 88V8 » November 9th, 2021, 10:39 am

GoSeigen wrote:...should I.... do anything to check my father's wishes were met in the wording of his will; that undue pressure was not put on him and that he had capacity at the time?

Grotty family situation. Sympathy.
Mess... and if you can't see how best to proceed, I'm blowed if an outsider can...
Random snippets:

Proving that he had or had not capacity a year ago... how? Lawyers' paradise.

Qualifications to write a Will?
Fraid not https://www.willwriters.com/blog/become-will-writer/
Whilst their are no formal qualifications necessary to become a Will Writer and even though anyone could write their own Will....

Given that they are no longer married, If he leaves his former wife his estate and cuts his family out, I believe he is obliged to state in writing why he has cut them out, otherwise the Will may be subject to challenge post-mortem.
Not that I would point this out to her, in the circumstances....

However... my estate will go to my wife... and she is then free to do with it as she sees fit and if nothing goes to my side of the family that would be perfectly legal.
So if his Will explains and justifies his dispositions, afaik there will be no scope for challenge.

POA ... I don't sign anything I haven't seen. Why on earth would anyone do that?
So... I suppose... I would refuse to sign the POA... although... it is not obligatory to have two attorneys, she does have to involve you at all, which somewhat limits your leverage.

And finally, post-mortem I would take a look at the Will and see whether there is scope for challenge as I mentioned.
If you wanted to cause aggravation at that point.
Low hundred thousands is not peanuts to most people, but depending on your situation and given your brother is financially supported, you may not feel it's worth the candle.

Reading your post, and thinking of the various issues that can arise in later life, one way and another I'm grateful that all four of our parents departed with marbles intact, leaving no rancour behind them.

Sympathy.

V8

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Re: Father's will

#456752

Postby pje16 » November 9th, 2021, 10:43 am

88V8 wrote:POA ... I don't sign anything I haven't seen. Why on earth would anyone do that?
V8

If a partner has lost their marbles or is otherwise incapacitated

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Re: Father's will

#456788

Postby 88V8 » November 9th, 2021, 11:46 am

pje16 wrote:
88V8 wrote:POA ... I don't sign anything I haven't seen. Why on earth would anyone do that?

If a partner has lost their marbles or is otherwise incapacitated

This is what I was referring to.
GoSeigen wrote:...very recently ex-wife contacts me and asks me to sign a deed granting PoA for health and welfare to her and me (as reserve) in my father's affairs because she wishes to register it. As I wasn't involved in its drafting I've never seen the text of this document or even knew I was named. The adviser clearly hadn't made sure I was informed or asked to sign it. I refuse to sign the document sight unseen ...

Couple of further thought for the OP... easy for anyone reading this to cast her as the wicked witch, but a marriage of twenty plus years is not insignificant... amicable divorce... she is still helping him, maybe in part with an eye to the lolly but perhaps morally she is not in the wrong... with the Will/POA is this just her, what seems to be going about things in a cackhanded way... don't know the lady...

What can I say...

V8

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Re: Father's will

#456791

Postby Avantegarde » November 9th, 2021, 11:55 am

Get a copy of the Will first. Then ask your father straight: is this what he really wants, and why? Then you will see how the land lies.

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Re: Father's will

#456859

Postby GoSeigen » November 9th, 2021, 3:26 pm

Thanks for your thoughts 88V8. Just briefly an update: I have now received copies of the two original unsigned powers of attorney from the advisor via my fathers' ex. Obviously, lacking a signature I'm still taking a risk if I sign, but at least I have some certainty about what was in them. They each appoint one attorney, his ex, and one replacement attorney, me. The rest is boilerplate. There is no explanation as to why I was not involved earlier nor sent a copy immediately to sign.

I spoke briefly to the Office of the Public Guardian who were mildly perturbed to hear that I hadn't seen the document but was named on it.

88V8 wrote:Given that they are no longer married, If he leaves his former wife his estate and cuts his family out, I believe he is obliged to state in writing why he has cut them out, otherwise the Will may be subject to challenge post-mortem.
Not that I would point this out to her, in the circumstances....

Is this a fact? I'll try to get legal advice, but useful to know if true.
However... my estate will go to my wife... and she is then free to do with it as she sees fit and if nothing goes to my side of the family that would be perfectly legal.
So if his Will explains and justifies his dispositions, afaik there will be no scope for challenge.

POA ... I don't sign anything I haven't seen. Why on earth would anyone do that?
So... I suppose... I would refuse to sign the POA... although... it is not obligatory to have two attorneys, she does have to involve you at all, which somewhat limits your leverage.

I understand as both attorneys are already named and everyone else has signed and it's a deed the document cannot now be altered. Without my signature they cannot register the incomplete deed and can only make a new one -- and I doubt he'd be judged to have capacity now.

When I asked why she thought I should sign a statement that I knew to be false i.e. that I had read the document and would take into account the instructions therein, she said that she'd often signed documents she hadn't read and I was "causing [her] a lot of trouble by insisting on dotting the i's and crossing the t's"!

And finally, post-mortem I would take a look at the Will and see whether there is scope for challenge as I mentioned.
If you wanted to cause aggravation at that point.
Low hundred thousands is not peanuts to most people, but depending on your situation and given your brother is financially supported, you may not feel it's worth the candle.

Reading your post, and thinking of the various issues that can arise in later life, one way and another I'm grateful that all four of our parents departed with marbles intact, leaving no rancour behind them.


It's the rancour factor that is bothering me at the moment. Finding it hard to read the dynamic; as you commented, they have remained friendly and she is the one who has been helping her. Is this apparent change in his will then a "reward" for her. And as it indicates their closeness should I leave her largely to deal with his affairs? On the other hand if he was confused giving his version of the will and in fact he had (for example) left everything in trust to me and my brother but for her benefit during her lifetime, then she may feel resentful if we don't get involved as much as she might expect.

The problem is: the will is the elephant in the room since I found out about it. Every time I raise it she diverts onto another topic or says "this is nothing to do with the wills", etc. I've asked in writing and she simply ignores it. So it makes one very wary and uncertain, despite of the previous very good relationship.

GS

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Re: Father's will

#456875

Postby Dod101 » November 9th, 2021, 4:34 pm

I was about to write much the same as 88V8 has . The positive seems to be that the ex wife is obviously (from your comments in your first post) happy to look after him, even to the extent of a POA in her favour. That is surely a relief to you especially if you are living abroad. Neither you nor your brother needs your father's money you have said and what is in the will is, to be blunt, probably none of your business. Your father is entitled to leave his estate as he wishes (assuming of course that he had capacity when it was signed anyway.)

It sounds as if the divorce was a convenience for her, given your father's mental health issues, but that she still feels an obligation to keep in touch and in fact more than that, more or less look after him. If the reward for that is a few hundred thousand and you do not need the money anyway, well so be it. Had they remained married that is quite possibly what would have happened anyway. Who knows, your father might end up in a care home and it would not be difficult to get through at least £100,000 and possibly more so it is by no means certain how much the ex wife is going to benefit in the end anyway.

I can understand that there is an emotional angle to all family matters but I would think it is probably best for you just to accept the POA situation and keep on at least speaking terms your father and the ex. BTW is the POA for care matters as well as looking after his assets?

Dod

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Re: Father's will

#456881

Postby monabri » November 9th, 2021, 5:36 pm

Post mortem - you can obtain a copy of the will for £3.50 (credit card payment). The copy of the will being needed for probate and you download via t'internet. There is usually a delay of a few months between death and the will being made available.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Ac ... dToPayment

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Re: Father's will

#456891

Postby 88V8 » November 9th, 2021, 6:18 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
88V8 wrote:Given that they are no longer married, If he leaves his former wife his estate and cuts his family out, I believe he is obliged to state in writing why he has cut them out, otherwise the Will may be subject to challenge post-mortem.

Is this a fact? I'll try to get legal advice, but useful to know if true.

There have been successful challenges, but if you are well funded from your own means and not dependent on an inheritance, and if he has not in the past specifically promised you anything, I think at best you would receive a modest percentage.
As you say, perhaps best to leave this on ice until the time comes, and then decide depending on the provisions of the Will and how relationships are at that time.
It's the rancour factor that is bothering me at the moment. Finding it hard to read the dynamic; as you commented, they have remained friendly and she is the one who has been helping her.
The problem is: the will is the elephant in the room since I found out about it. Every time I raise it she diverts onto another topic or says "this is nothing to do with the wills", etc. I've asked in writing and she simply ignores it. So it makes one very wary and uncertain, despite of the previous very good relationship.GS

It's trite, but behind every Will there is a human dynamic. Perhaps he still loves her.

Perhaps he fears being left alone, in practical terms, given you are abroad and your brother is not able, so he buys her allegiance. It sounds cold, put like that, but one can imagine it being perfectly logical from his pov, and if he loves her it keeps her around.

It does not sound as if you are going to get sight of the Will and as Dod says, one has no right anyway....
While he is alive, there seems little to gain by poisoning the relationship with her.

I hope that if necessary she does her bit with the POA. They can be onerous to administer, many companies do not deal well with POAs and make life difficult for the holder - as you will know if you are a Which member, it's a regular gripe.
For you living abroad it could be a right royal pita, so another reason to let things lie while he is alive.

V8

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Re: Father's will

#456976

Postby GoSeigen » November 10th, 2021, 7:06 am

Dod101 wrote:I was about to write much the same as 88V8 has . The positive seems to be that the ex wife is obviously (from your comments in your first post) happy to look after him, even to the extent of a POA in her favour. That is surely a relief to you especially if you are living abroad. Neither you nor your brother needs your father's money you have said and what is in the will is, to be blunt, probably none of your business. Your father is entitled to leave his estate as he wishes (assuming of course that he had capacity when it was signed anyway.)


I agree, save for the fact that he attempted to tell me what he'd put in there, it was his explanation that I didn't understand** , hence my asking him to let me read it for myself. He didn't seem averse to that so the inference for me (in the absence of a better explanation) is that his ex opposed it.

**(for years he's struggled to communicate complex matters with clarity -- he speaks in an arm-waving manner with little use of technical terminology where it's needed -- so for example if a trust were mentioned in the will I doubt he'd communicate that. Talking over whatsapp rather than face to face doesn't help.)


It sounds as if the divorce was a convenience for her, given your father's mental health issues, but that she still feels an obligation to keep in touch and in fact more than that, more or less look after him. If the reward for that is a few hundred thousand and you do not need the money anyway, well so be it. Had they remained married that is quite possibly what would have happened anyway. Who knows, your father might end up in a care home and it would not be difficult to get through at least £100,000 and possibly more so it is by no means certain how much the ex wife is going to benefit in the end anyway.

I can understand that there is an emotional angle to all family matters but I would think it is probably best for you just to accept the POA situation and keep on at least speaking terms your father and the ex. BTW is the POA for care matters as well as looking after his assets?

Dod


Yes, that is what I'm grappling with more than anything, hence my comment in the OP that the thread might as well be on "Family Fools". I'm struggling to get my head around it. And the timing is terrible given the recent rapid decline in my father's mental health.

Yes, there are two powers of attorney drawn up. Would it be sensible to suggest that I be attorney for financial matters and she for health?? But this discussion should have been had in his presence months ago...


GS

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Re: Father's will

#456977

Postby GoSeigen » November 10th, 2021, 7:08 am

Avantegarde wrote:Get a copy of the Will first. Then ask your father straight: is this what he really wants, and why? Then you will see how the land lies.

I've no right to see the will as Dod and others have said. I'm relying on his wanting me to know its content. And only his ex has a copy AFAIAA.

GS

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Re: Father's will

#456982

Postby Dod101 » November 10th, 2021, 7:29 am

Thinking a bit more about all of this, is there any mileage in your going to see them both face to face (assuming Covid restrictions allow for that)?

That way you could show willing, get an actual up to date position on the feelings of the ex and maybe get a feel for her emotions (and motivation) as well. Even if you can do nothing at least you would feel you had 'done something'.

Re the POAs, logically as you say, you as the immediate next of kin ought surely to have some say on his assets, and leave the ex to attend to health issues.

It is clearly not an easy situation for anyone and it is such a same that situations like this occur more often than we would all like.

Dod

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Re: Father's will

#457421

Postby Avantegarde » November 11th, 2021, 8:36 pm

Another point: are you sure the POA has been set up properly? When my father was alive, his solicitor, on being asked to set up POAs for both welfare and finance, ensured he discussed the matter without me present (to ensure I did not put any unfair pressure on my father and that he got my father's wishes and not mine) while he explained all the ramifications to my dad. The solicitor said he had to be sure that my father was capable of understanding what his impending decisions about the POAs meant, before proceeding. All very good and thorough. Do you think your father was sufficiently compos mentis when his POA was drawn up? And what is the state of play with it, given that you were named as an attorney without your knowledge and have, as yet, not signed it?

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Re: Father's will

#457579

Postby GoSeigen » November 12th, 2021, 12:54 pm

Avantegarde wrote:Another point: are you sure the POA has been set up properly? When my father was alive, his solicitor, on being asked to set up POAs for both welfare and finance, ensured he discussed the matter without me present (to ensure I did not put any unfair pressure on my father and that he got my father's wishes and not mine) while he explained all the ramifications to my dad. The solicitor said he had to be sure that my father was capable of understanding what his impending decisions about the POAs meant, before proceeding. All very good and thorough. Do you think your father was sufficiently compos mentis when his POA was drawn up? And what is the state of play with it, given that you were named as an attorney without your knowledge and have, as yet, not signed it?


No PoA has been set up. The PoA's need my signature to be set up and they didn't seek it or even consult me until last week.

I presume your solicitor got you to sign as soon as he'd finished with your father, which as you say is good and thorough. Someone in my father's setup seems to have neglected that part.

I've no idea how compos mentis my father was as I had no involvement at the time. And all my discussions with him around that time (all by phone) were on the level of family chit chat -- birthdays, Christmas and general family gossip. So there was not much to go on regarding his state of mind. His ex was seeing him regularly and didn't comment on him much except that she worried about his diet and increasing isolation... but ....... COVID


The current position is he is in hospital, completely gaga the last time I spoke to him. :-( The advisor sent what copies he has but they are the drafts before anyone signed and dated them. I've written to him asking for his input but so far he has ignored my letter. Ex-wife knows I've written to the advisor but has made no comment, seems to be sulking so no real communication for almost a week. I've made clear to everyone that i don't want to sign something I haven't seen. So for now I think it's what is known as a Mexican standoff with my father caught in the middle and unable to fight his own corner.

GS

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Re: Father's will

#457581

Postby GoSeigen » November 12th, 2021, 1:05 pm

Dod101 wrote:Thinking a bit more about all of this, is there any mileage in your going to see them both face to face (assuming Covid restrictions allow for that)?

Thinking seriously about this but I'm living abroad with a business and three kids and visa-related issues (i.e. a foreigner getting the "hostile environment treatment") so it's not just a matter of popping down the road. At least there's no red list any more!

That way you could show willing, get an actual up to date position on the feelings of the ex and maybe get a feel for her emotions (and motivation) as well. Even if you can do nothing at least you would feel you had 'done something'.

Re the POAs, logically as you say, you as the immediate next of kin ought surely to have some say on his assets, and leave the ex to attend to health issues.

It is clearly not an easy situation for anyone and it is such a same that situations like this occur more often than we would all like.


Thanks Dod I appreciate your sympathy...

Mentioning next of kin, the hospital asked me about next of kin the other day, I gave my name without thinking, then they said, "But his ex-wife is listed here as next of kin."

Who exactly is next of kin? Is it up to relatives to decide among themselves? Or does proximity and social contact trump family relationship? Probably google could answer but...

GS

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Re: Father's will

#457608

Postby Dod101 » November 12th, 2021, 2:20 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Thinking a bit more about all of this, is there any mileage in your going to see them both face to face (assuming Covid restrictions allow for that)?

Thinking seriously about this but I'm living abroad with a business and three kids and visa-related issues (i.e. a foreigner getting the "hostile environment treatment") so it's not just a matter of popping down the road. At least there's no red list any more!

That way you could show willing, get an actual up to date position on the feelings of the ex and maybe get a feel for her emotions (and motivation) as well. Even if you can do nothing at least you would feel you had 'done something'.

Re the POAs, logically as you say, you as the immediate next of kin ought surely to have some say on his assets, and leave the ex to attend to health issues.

It is clearly not an easy situation for anyone and it is such a same that situations like this occur more often than we would all like.


Thanks Dod I appreciate your sympathy...

Mentioning next of kin, the hospital asked me about next of kin the other day, I gave my name without thinking, then they said, "But his ex-wife is listed here as next of kin."

Who exactly is next of kin? Is it up to relatives to decide among themselves? Or does proximity and social contact trump family relationship? Probably google could answer but...

GS


Investopaedia tells us the next of kin is the one with the nearest blood or legal relationships. That would suggest that you would have a greater claim than an ex wife but it may not be worth arguing about with her. She though seems to want the best of both worlds although being 'next of kin' usually will bring more responsibility than benefit! Clearly though for whatever reason she seems to be acting more or less as de facto wife. In your current situation I cannot see that that is to your disadvantage in that there is someone nearby keeping an eye on him. The hospital though would seem to think it a bit unusual for the ex to be named otherwise they would presumably not have asked you about it.
You sound as though you are concerned about the whole set up and that is entirely understandable but I think as I said earlier that the only way to resolve that would be to go and see her and your father if that is at all possible. Not much more that I can say.

Dod

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Re: Father's will

#458987

Postby GoSeigen » November 18th, 2021, 6:22 am

Update:

My father's ex-wife is handling this very strangely. She has now vowed not to have any contact with me - ever! plus a heap of other abuse. For the crime of refusing to sign a document before seeing it. The professional wills and LPA chappie agreed with her that there is no harm in doing so.

So I have now written to the Office of the Public Guardian asking if they are okay with an attorney signing a draft version, and if not to send me a copy of the original, which they have already refused to do by phone.

GS

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Re: Father's will

#459039

Postby 88V8 » November 18th, 2021, 10:48 am

GoSeigen wrote:My father's ex-wife is handling this very strangely. She has now vowed not to have any contact with me - ever! plus a heap of other abuse.

Oh dear.
It begins to sound as if she's the one that needs a POA.
I wonder if you could have her removed as Attorney... but then what would you do...

Sympathy.

V8


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