Fraudulent LPAs are now a thing

[Mike4]

A shocking edition of "You and Yours" on the BBC today (27/12/21) details a case of a woman discovering the existence of a fraudulent Lasting Power of Attorney granted to a stranger claiming to be her sister, who then attempts to sell her (empty) house.

It turns out the Office of the Public Guardian carries out no checks when issuing LPAs and has no staff or process to investigate fraudulently obtained LPAs.

How on EARTH can one protect oneself against being so targeted? Houses are not the only thing at risk here, all our assets can be fall under the control of a fraudster by this method.

Here's the programme link. Makes deeply disturbing listening.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0012scr

[jackdaww]

A shocking edition of "You and Yours" on the BBC today (27/12/21) details a case of a woman discovering the existence of a fraudulent Lasting Power of Attorney granted to a stranger claiming to be her sister, who then attempts to sell her (empty) house.

It turns out the Office of the Public Guardian carries out no checks when issuing LPAs and has no staff or process to investigate fraudulently obtained LPAs.

How on EARTH can one protect oneself against being so targeted? Houses are not the only thing at risk here, all our assets can be fall under the control of a fraudster by this method.

Here's the programme link. Makes deeply disturbing listening.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0012scr

================================

astonishing !!

[bonrepos]

Truly frightening with no cohesive protection of LPAs.

I noted that the government in the guise of Dominic Raab was asked to comment on these findings and
could not find the time to reply to the request. At least the Shadow minister sounds as though he will
bring this matter to the attention of the government.

Watch this space!

[88V8]

.....the Office of the Public Guardian carries out no checks when issuing LPAs ...

That is indeed alarming.
And now of course the broadcast has alerted a whole nation of scrotes to this nice opportunity.

Pick an empty house where you slightly know the owner, get a locksmith to let you in... forgot me keys... and away you go.

The ultimate loser I suppose would be whoever bought the house as they would have no legal title and would have to sue the perp to retrieve their money.

V8

[chas49]

.....the Office of the Public Guardian carries out no checks when issuing LPAs ...

That is indeed alarming.
And now of course the broadcast has alerted a whole nation of scrotes to this nice opportunity.

Pick an empty house where you slightly know the owner, get a locksmith to let you in... forgot me keys... and away you go.

The ultimate loser I suppose would be whoever bought the house as they would have no legal title and would have to sue the perp to retrieve their money.

V8

This thread (https://lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f ... en#p454449) suggests that the person buying the property in such a scenario might actually have good title once the tranasction has been registered by the Land Registry!! (The linked topic was about ID theft rather than using an LPA but I can't see that being a material difference!)

[mc2fool]

Yes, horrific. And a catalogue of failures it seems. In addition to the ones already mentioned there is:

The police and Action Fraud said there was nothing they could do ... uh?!? Fraud is a criminal offence, is it not?! The reporter managed to investigate but the police can't/won't ?!?

Then, the solicitor (or was it OPG rep?) said that as "Julie" still has the original paper LPA document she could present it at banks etc to grab the victims assets. But there is a central register of LPAs and it seems you can view an LPA online and check if it's valid. https://www.gov.uk/view-lasting-power-of-attorney. How come that wasn't mentioned? And why don't, as was implied, banks etc do that check and not just rely on the paper in front of them?!?

And then I wonder about the good judgment of the investigative journalism in the programme. So the reporter found some addresses for "Julie" -- and went knocking on her door to try and interview her! The prime effect of which would have been, had she been there, to let "Julie" know she'd been caught out and found, and undoubtedly result in her disappearing.

There surely has to be a point at which journalists investigating criminals share their evidence with the police so that the cops can go and nab them, not give the criminal the heads up they've been discovered so they can scarper! Of course, if the cops aren't interested ...

[Arborbridge]

A shocking edition of "You and Yours" on the BBC today (27/12/21) details a case of a woman discovering the existence of a fraudulent Lasting Power of Attorney granted to a stranger claiming to be her sister, who then attempts to sell her (empty) house.

It turns out the Office of the Public Guardian carries out no checks when issuing LPAs and has no staff or process to investigate fraudulently obtained LPAs.

How on EARTH can one protect oneself against being so targeted? Houses are not the only thing at risk here, all our assets can be fall under the control of a fraudster by this method.

Here's the programme link. Makes deeply disturbing listening.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0012scr

================================

astonishing !!

I think they would argue it like the land registry. It isn't their job to investigate, only to register

Whatever, it is a blooming disgrace.

Note, however, that if one is living at your postal address the risk is much less. This fraud was nascent only because the woman's house was empty for long periods and also did not have a mortgage. The inital thing which tripped her up was that the house was leashold, and that fortunately led to the freeholder trying to contact the owner by email.

It is quite mind blowing that the perpetrator still has the original and on initial inspection, legal, document giving her control. The only thing which could stop her is the vigilance of any solicitor, and I wouldn't mind betting that this "Julie" whoever she is, has learnt so much from this program about how she went wrong, she can do it again but more convincingly. Find a solicitor less on the ball, or even a crooked one, and it would have worked.



Arb.

[Arborbridge]

Yes, horrific. And a catalogue of failures it seems. In addition to the ones already mentioned there is:

The police and Action Fraud said there was nothing they could do ... uh?!? Fraud is a criminal offence, is it not?! The reporter managed to investigate but the police can't/won't ?!?

Then, the solicitor (or was it OPG rep?) said that as "Julie" still has the original paper LPA document she could present it at banks etc to grab the victims assets. But there is a central register of LPAs and it seems you can view an LPA online and check if it's valid. https://www.gov.uk/view-lasting-power-of-attorney. How come that wasn't mentioned? And why don't, as was implied, banks etc do that check and not just rely on the paper in front of them?!?

And then I wonder about the good judgment of the investigative journalism in the programme. So the reporter found some addresses for "Julie" -- and went knocking on her door to try and interview her! The prime effect of which would have been, had she been there, to let "Julie" know she'd been caught out and found, and undoubtedly result in her disappearing.

There surely has to be a point at which journalists investigating criminals share their evidence with the police so that the cops can go and nab them, not give the criminal the heads up they've been discovered so they can scarper! Of course, if the cops aren't interested ...

I thought the same, but to be fair, we don't know that the BBC did not contact the police beforehand. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. What is sad, is that the police initially say they could not do anything, but then later when the BBC gave them the evidence, they claimed there were no leads to follow up. This isn't very convincing to me, and the reported pointed out that there were some obvious leads. It is a reflection on how the police prioritise their limited resources.

Arb.

[yorkshirelad1]

A shocking edition of "You and Yours" on the BBC today (27/12/21) details a case of a woman discovering the existence of a fraudulent Lasting Power of Attorney granted to a stranger claiming to be her sister, who then attempts to sell her (empty) house.

It turns out the Office of the Public Guardian carries out no checks when issuing LPAs and has no staff or process to investigate fraudulently obtained LPAs.

How on EARTH can one protect oneself against being so targeted? Houses are not the only thing at risk here, all our assets can be fall under the control of a fraudster by this method.

Here's the programme link. Makes deeply disturbing listening.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0012scr

It's about time the loopholes in the LPA process get cleaned up. When I did an LPA, I seem to recall that letters are supposed to go to a number of supposedly trusted third parties for them to object (e.g. "Did you know your elderly, frail and vulnerable Aunt Lilly has just written a Power of Attorney in favour of one Boris Johnson"). But no-one really seems to check whether those letters get sent .... it's all taken on trust ....

[nautical]

Presumably, the Land Registry Property Alert service is intended to alert property owners to this and similar fraud attempts?

https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

I signed up last month to this free service after reading online of other similar property fraud cases.

[Mike4]

Presumably, the Land Registry Property Alert service is intended to alert property owners to this and similar fraud attempts?

https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

I signed up last month to this free service after reading online of other similar property fraud cases.

These are chocolate teapot territory. Once someone has a LPA over your affairs, they won't give a hoot if you know or not about their selling of your house. There seems to be little you can do to stop it given the refusal of those in power to respond in a timely manner.

[GrahamPlatt]

Presumably, the Land Registry Property Alert service is intended to alert property owners to this and similar fraud attempts?

https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

I signed up last month to this free service after reading online of other similar property fraud cases.

Yes. I signed up to this years ago. Had three properties on the site. Two of them have since been sold (legitimately). But I never had what you might call an “alert” about these sales. ISTR there’s a six-monthly status review sort of email, telling you that some “activity” has occurred - with no specifics. And it’d be too late to act if the event was just after your last reassuring notification.

[Arborbridge]

Presumably, the Land Registry Property Alert service is intended to alert property owners to this and similar fraud attempts?

https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

I signed up last month to this free service after reading online of other similar property fraud cases.

So did I, and I received an alert a couple of days later. Haha! - Gotcha, I thought. Well, no, actually, I realised I had gone into my title records to check something

[Arborbridge]

Presumably, the Land Registry Property Alert service is intended to alert property owners to this and similar fraud attempts?

https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

I signed up last month to this free service after reading online of other similar property fraud cases.

Yes. I signed up to this years ago. Had three properties on the site. Two of them have since been sold (legitimately). But I never had what you might call an “alert” about these sales. ISTR there’s a six-monthly status review sort of email, telling you that some “activity” has occurred - with no specifics. And it’d be too late to act if the event was just after your last reassuring notification.

Odd. See my previous post, where I had an alert a couple of days after I checked something on the site. I have heard, though, that by the time you hear anything, it is possibly too late.

I think that should make us fall back on having a restriction put on the title, or registering a small charge in a trusted reltive's name. I'm in the process of discussing this with my solicitor, though Christmas brought it to a halt.

[yorkshirelad1]

Presumably, the Land Registry Property Alert service is intended to alert property owners to this and similar fraud attempts?

https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

I signed up last month to this free service after reading online of other similar property fraud cases.

Yes. I signed up to this years ago. Had three properties on the site. Two of them have since been sold (legitimately). But I never had what you might call an “alert” about these sales. ISTR there’s a six-monthly status review sort of email, telling you that some “activity” has occurred - with no specifics. And it’d be too late to act if the event was just after your last reassuring notification.

I use the Land Registry alerts (I was selling a house as an exor and it was useful to see the updates), and I have seen both an "at the time" e-mail alert, and the six-month summary e-mails. The "at the time" e-mails sometimes have a fairly uninformative narrative (to the untrained eye anyway) but it's a useful nudge/reminder that something is happening.

[Howard]

If one really wants to be scared about the LPA situation I recommend watching "I care a lot" a 2020 film, free on Amazon Prime starring Rosamund Pike.

For full scary effect it's worth having a coffee/tea break after watching the film for about 20 minutes and reflecting on the similarities to the OP.

We watched last night and being of a similar age to the "victim" this thread seemed very relevant.

Regards

Howard

Spoiler alert:

Given a similar situation we are at the disadvantage that Mrs H doesn't have the victims' connections which were so helpful in the film.

[Arborbridge]

If one really wants to be scared about the LPA situation I recommend watching "I care a lot" a 2020 film, free on Amazon Prime starring Rosamund Pike.

For full scary effect it's worth having a coffee/tea break after watching the film for about 20 minutes and reflecting on the similarities to the OP.

We watched last night and being of a similar age to the "victim" this thread seemed very relevant.

Regards

Howard

Spoiler alert:

Given a similar situation we are at the disadvantage that Mrs H doesn't have the victims' connections which were so helpful in the film.

Thanks. I've put it on my "to hire" list at Cinema Paradiso. Not sure if it will ever become available to hire as it's Amazon prime, but it might one day.

[Howard]

If one really wants to be scared about the LPA situation I recommend watching "I care a lot" a 2020 film, free on Amazon Prime starring Rosamund Pike.

For full scary effect it's worth having a coffee/tea break after watching the film for about 20 minutes and reflecting on the similarities to the OP.

We watched last night and being of a similar age to the "victim" this thread seemed very relevant.

Regards

Howard

Spoiler alert:

Given a similar situation we are at the disadvantage that Mrs H doesn't have the victims' connections which were so helpful in the film.

Thanks. I've put it on my "to hire" list at Cinema Paradiso. Not sure if it will ever become available to hire as it's Amazon prime, but it might one day.

I think it's on Netflix as well.

regards

Howard

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
Can we restrain ourselves and not go too far off-topic in discussion of where a film might be available please! Thanks (chas49)

[Clitheroekid]

It's about time the loopholes in the LPA process get cleaned up. When I did an LPA, I seem to recall that letters are supposed to go to a number of supposedly trusted third parties for them to object (e.g. "Did you know your elderly, frail and vulnerable Aunt Lilly has just written a Power of Attorney in favour of one Boris Johnson"). But no-one really seems to check whether those letters get sent .... it's all taken on trust ....

This is where the Lasting Power of Attorney offers less security than the old Enduring Power of Attorney.

There was no need to notify anyone that you had made an EPA, and it could be used immediately. However, if the donor lost their mental capacity it did have to be registered at the OPG, and it couldn't be used until registration had taken place. And importantly the registration process did require that various relatives were notified and given a chance to object.

However, an LPA has to be registered before you can use it at all, irrespective of your mental state, so 99% of people register them immediately.

The problem is that although the LPA form does give the option for people to be notified of the application for registration that's all it is - an option. And as 99% of people making an LPA are registering it at the same time as they're making it, when they are, by definition, of full mental capacity, they quite understandably don't see any need for anyone to be notified, so they reject the option.

The ease of fraud is something that's always worried me, and another aspect that often surprises lay people is that no evidence at all is required that the person making the LPA actually has mental capacity to do so. It would therefore be the easiest thing in the world to make an LPA for someone who did not have mental capacity, to get it registered, and to use it to steal the donor's assets.

And from the criminal's point of view the best aspect of LPA fraud is that the unfortunate victim is often by definition incapable of giving evidence, thereby making prosecution extremely difficult or impossible. This not only simplifies the crime but removes a lot of the risk from it.

At the risk of being accused of special pleading a relatively simple way of policing the system would be a requirement for a certificate from a solicitor that all the necessary formalities had been complied with and that the identity of the parties to the LPA had been verified. But this would obviously (a) create an additional cost; and (b) put money in lawyers' pockets, and as the Government are obsessed with `light touch regulation' and know how unpopular lawyers are this would never happen for purely political reasons.

Having said all of the above it would be far easier just to use an ordinary Power of Attorney - a section 10 PoA as they're known in the trade. This is a simple one page form that is signed by the donor in front of a random witness, and gives the attorney immediate and unrestricted powers to deal with all the donor's property with absolutely no overview at all and no pesky notification / registration formalities to worry about.

I suspect the only reason these aren't used to perpetrate widespread fraud is that crims simply don't know about them - so I sincerely hope the LF readership doesn't include any potential fraudsters!