How to remove an occupier with no rights?

[zico]

The subject title sounds like a very easy question, but I'm interested in how this would practically happen, and what to do to speed the process.

At the start of Covid, my father invited a lady in her nineties to live with him in his house, after which she sold her house, but my father has not given her any rights to live in his house in he were to die first, and his will leaves the house to me. In this situation, how would I go about getting the lady out of the property? (It's unlikely that my father would agree to ask her to sign a legal document giving up any rights she may have accrued to the property)

She has a son who rents several properties, so he will very likely be aware of all potential delaying opportunities and tricks. I expect she will want to stay there as long as she possibly can, because it's a nice house and she doesn't pay anything towards the costs.
For example, if she didn't comply with a court order, as a lady in her nineties, would it be possible in practice to enforce a court order if she simply refused to leave. (I've heard the expression "possession is 9/10ths of the law"!)

[genou]

Since she is a licensee, if she has any remedies, they lie only against the licensor, and do not pass with the property. A new owner would have no obligations to her at all.

I reckon after the licensor's death, the new owner could just change the locks on her; but I'm sure someone who knows will be along shortly.

[Lootman]

Since she is a licensee, if she has any remedies, they lie only against the licensor, and do not pass with the property. A new owner would have no obligations to her at all.

I reckon after the licensor's death, the new owner could just change the locks on her; but I'm sure someone who knows will be along shortly.

Assuming that the lady has paid no rent, then she is more like a guest than a tenant, which carries few rights.

In that case the owner could regard the guest as a trespasser, and force can be used to remove a trespasser, or the police can be called to remove them. However given this is a very elderly lady I might want to try and gently negotiate her departure rather than be aggressive about it.

[zico]

It seems to me the elderly lady in question is 100% sure that she will simply be able to live in the property until her death. I'd expect her to simply refuse to leave, saying "this is my home now, and I have nowhere else to live".
In this situation, I certainly wouldn't want to use force, and I very much doubt the police would remove her - is that likely at all? (I've no experience of how these issues get resolved). For example, could I get a legal judgement that would then be enforced by bailiffs?

As for changing the locks, I'd expect it to be more likely that her son changes the locks of the property so I wouldn't be able to gain access.

[Arborbridge]

I'm almost certain the police would not be interested.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

It seems to me the elderly lady in question is 100% sure that she will simply be able to live in the property until her death. I'd expect her to simply refuse to leave, saying "this is my home now, and I have nowhere else to live".
In this situation, I certainly wouldn't want to use force, and I very much doubt the police would remove her - is that likely at all? (I've no experience of how these issues get resolved). For example, could I get a legal judgement that would then be enforced by bailiffs?

As for changing the locks, I'd expect it to be more likely that her son changes the locks of the property so I wouldn't be able to gain access.

If and when your Father dies, you will, after probate and any other legal stuff become the legal owner of the home. If the lady isn't prepared to draw up a legally binding document and pay rent to the new owner or simply vacate the home then I wonder if she's edging towards the tort of conversion? I don't really know though. Google it and see what comes up

AiY

[Lootman]

I'm almost certain the police would not be interested.

It's an interesting one. Trespass (which is what this lady will be doing if she doesn't leave when told to) didn't used to be a crime. When I was squatting in North London in the 1970s one of the property owners tried to involve the police and they told him that it was a purely civil matter.

But Thatcher changed the trespass laws to make squatting a crime in the 1980s, and so at least in theory if you call the cops and tell them there is a trespasser on your property, they should show up. Especially if you express concern about safety.

Of course when the cops show up and see a 95 year old woman is the threat then they will probably demur. They may ask the woman for proof that she lives there and she may be able to provide that through utility bills etc.

I suspect the real dispute here is with the woman's son, who sounds like a piece of work, perhaps even seeking a payout for vacant possession.

[swill453]

I suspect the real dispute here is with the woman's son, who sounds like a piece of work, perhaps even seeking a payout for vacant possession.

Not sure how we conclude that. All we know is that he's a landlord. Does that automatically make him a "piece of work"?

Scott.

[Lootman]

I suspect the real dispute here is with the woman's son, who sounds like a piece of work, perhaps even seeking a payout for vacant possession.

Not sure how we conclude that. All we know is that he's a landlord. Does that automatically make him a "piece of work"?

Scott.

Speaking as a former landlord of 32 years, yes.

[scrumpyjack]

You could move in yourself too and maybe invite some noisy friends of yours

[Lootman]

You could move in yourself too and maybe invite some noisy friends of yours

I did that once. I had a property that I rented out as a HMO (before there were licenses and a whole bunch of rules about that).

I had one sub-tenant who was a pain and, rather than go through an eviction, I waited until one of his housemates moved out and then announced that I was moving into the vacated room. We were going to be housemates!

He was gone before I even moved in.

[zico]

From the thread so far, it sounds like possession really is 9/10ths of the law, and whoever changes the locks first will be the one that comes out best.
Hopefully there's a proper legal way of resolving the situation, but I'm not yet sure what that might be.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

From the thread so far, it sounds like possession really is 9/10ths of the law, and whoever changes the locks first will be the one that comes out best.
Hopefully there's a proper legal way of resolving the situation, but I'm not yet sure what that might be.

I have a different view. As I've said the scenario you suggest may well enter the realm of the tort of conversion.

https://hallellis.co.uk/tort-of-convers ... %3A%20sold.

"Conversion" is an unlawful act in English law whereby:

a person without authority does any act, which interferes with the title of goods owned by another person.
The aggrieved person doesn't have to own the goods.

For example, when a person takes the property of another person, and deals the goods as their own, a claim for conversion may arise where the goods are:

1. not returned on demand
2. damaged
3. used for the purposes of the wrongdoer
4. diminished in value, or
5. sold.

It's said the goods are "converted" for the purposes of the wrongdoer.

Conversion only applies to physical property.

AiY(D)

[mc2fool]

The first thing you or the executors will do in regards to the house on your father's death will be to get all the utilities transferred into your/the estate's name. Most utility suppliers have a bereavement support team that handles that and related probate matters.

So, while obviously not the first approach you'd want to use, one thing you could do to help convince her to leave is to turn off the utilities. Note though that I don't believe you can do it for gas and electricity between 1-Oct and 31-Mar. Phone, broadband, cable TV, etc you can turn off anytime.

[Dod101]

The subject title sounds like a very easy question, but I'm interested in how this would practically happen, and what to do to speed the process.

At the start of Covid, my father invited a lady in her nineties to live with him in his house, after which she sold her house, but my father has not given her any rights to live in his house in he were to die first, and his will leaves the house to me. In this situation, how would I go about getting the lady out of the property? (It's unlikely that my father would agree to ask her to sign a legal document giving up any rights she may have accrued to the property)

She has a son who rents several properties, so he will very likely be aware of all potential delaying opportunities and tricks. I expect she will want to stay there as long as she possibly can, because it's a nice house and she doesn't pay anything towards the costs.
For example, if she didn't comply with a court order, as a lady in her nineties, would it be possible in practice to enforce a court order if she simply refused to leave. (I've heard the expression "possession is 9/10ths of the law"!)

Having read this thread, it seems to me to be bereft of the obvious, which is some compassion, for the very elderly lady and in any case, she might die first, before the father that is. If she does not , then it is a fair assumption that she is not going to live in the house independently for very long. I am sorry to say that I would just let matters take their natural course. If the father dies first then the son becomes the owner of the house. Is it going to kill him to await the natural removal of the father's friend? What is the problem? She (the very elderly lady) is not a trespasser and presumably she has an interest in maintaining the property but why not get the views of the father now?

Dod

[Clitheroekid]

Since she is a licensee, if she has any remedies, they lie only against the licensor, and do not pass with the property. A new owner would have no obligations to her at all.

I reckon after the licensor's death, the new owner could just change the locks on her; but I'm sure someone who knows will be along shortly.

I have a different view. As I've said the scenario you suggest may well enter the realm of the tort of conversion.

No, the tort of conversion has no relevance to this situation. It refers only to chattels, not land.

In the absence of any agreement to the contrary the lady is technically a licensee. You can't just change the locks. Although as an `excluded occupier’ she has very limited rights she is nevertheless entitled to reasonable notice.

There’s no deification of reasonable notice, but 28 days is generally considered OK for this type of situation.

Once the notice has expired you are entitled to use `peaceable eviction’. You don’t need a court order, but neither can you use physical force, which is a criminal offence. The normal method is to wait until she’s out and then change the locks.

A risk that may arise in this situation is that she may claim that your father promised her a right of occupation or even some form of interest in the house. Providing certain conditions are fulfilled such rights can arise, and as your father wouldn’t be around to deny it you might then be faced with the need to obtain a court order.

It’s not a good situation, and you really need to speak to your father, and ideally get him to get some form of written agreement with her whereby she waives any occupation rights.

[mc2fool]

...in any case, she might die first, before the father that is. If she does not , then it is a fair assumption that she is not going to live in the house independently for very long. I am sorry to say that I would just let matters take their natural course. If the father dies first then the son becomes the owner of the house. Is it going to kill him to await the natural removal of the father's friend?

I am reminded of Jeanne Calment, the oldest ever verified person, who at the age of 90 entered a kind of equity release arrangement common in France with a local solicitor, who would pay her a monthly income for the rest of her life and in exchange he would get her house when she died. I reckon the solicitor figured he wouldn't have to wait for too long...........

............ 30 years later the solicitor died, in his 70s. She kept going for another 2 years after that.

[Dod101]

...in any case, she might die first, before the father that is. If she does not , then it is a fair assumption that she is not going to live in the house independently for very long. I am sorry to say that I would just let matters take their natural course. If the father dies first then the son becomes the owner of the house. Is it going to kill him to await the natural removal of the father's friend?

I am reminded of Jeanne Calment, the oldest ever verified person, who at the age of 90 entered a kind of equity release arrangement common in France with a local solicitor, who would pay her a monthly income for the rest of her life and in exchange he would get her house when she died. I reckon the solicitor figured he wouldn't have to wait for too long...........

............ 30 years later the solicitor died, in his 70s. She kept going for another 2 years after that.

Thanks. Yes I was trying to remember the name. I accept that that is a risk but at the same time, I do think that some compassion for the elderly lady would be in order.

Dod

[Arborbridge]

The 95 year old lady is the shield behind which other things may follow. It reminds me that in a war, some state have used civilians to shield military facilities...

My reaction was the same as Dod's but before venturing down that road, the current owner must make jolly sure that nothing can go wrong in terms of eventual ownership and make sure she has no rights over the property.

It's a really dodgy situation and in that position I would feel for the woman, but probably end up feeling I was being morally blackmailed. I'm too soft, but a more businesslike person (or a company) would just evict her.

Arb.

[Midsmartin]

Couldn't the lady be offered a normal tenancy if/when the situation arises? I appreciate the new owner might just want to sell, and we don't know all the details, but that seems a compromise worth considering. I think that moving house in your 90s is likely to be extremely stressful.