The Lemon Fool

We should remember that the OP said, "At the start of Covid, my father invited a lady in her nineties to live with him in his house, after which she sold her house..."

Which tells us (a) that at least she considered it a permanent arrangement (not a just-for-the-pandemic one), and (b) she is very likely sitting on a large pile of cash, enough to buy herself another house or to rent accommodation for many years, if need be.

Clitheroekid wrote:It’s not a good situation, and you really need to speak to your father, and ideally get him to get some form of written agreement with her whereby she waives any occupation rights.

And what if she doesn't agree to sign any such agreement? I'm not sure I really understand why it's anything to do with her, per se.

Couldn't the matter be clearly set out if the father added something to his will to the effect of: "<lady> to be allowed to live in <house> for up to a maximum of 2 months after my death, while she seeks new accommodation."

The lady in question is in her 90's. For what it's worth it seems a bit harsh to evict her as she probably has nowhere else to go. How would the OP's father feel if he knew the woman he invited to live with him would be chucked out as soon as he dies? Getting the father to sign an agreement would surely end up with an answer the OP would not want and probably make matters worse. If the lady in question is very elderly can't she be allowed to remain in the house until nature takes its course?

What does your dad want? What does he think will happen after his death? Have you asked him? After all, it is still his house, not yours.

Mike88 wrote:Getting the father to sign an agreement would surely end up with an answer the OP would not want and probably make matters worse.

I agree with this. Once prompted as to your thinking dad may decide he wants to change his will to leave the lady a lifetime right of residence, or worse (for you), ownership the house.

I think a quiet chat with dad (alone) would be a very good first move. If he wants what you want, THEN you can look at formalising some agreement to ensure it happens.

Gryff

Dod101 wrote:

mc2fool wrote:

Dod101 wrote:...in any case, she might die first, before the father that is. If she does not , then it is a fair assumption that she is not going to live in the house independently for very long. I am sorry to say that I would just let matters take their natural course. If the father dies first then the son becomes the owner of the house. Is it going to kill him to await the natural removal of the father's friend?

I am reminded of Jeanne Calment, the oldest ever verified person, who at the age of 90 entered a kind of equity release arrangement common in France with a local solicitor, who would pay her a monthly income for the rest of her life and in exchange he would get her house when she died. I reckon the solicitor figured he wouldn't have to wait for too long...........

............ 30 years later the solicitor died, in his 70s. She kept going for another 2 years after that.

Thanks. Yes I was trying to remember the name. I accept that that is a risk but at the same time, I do think that some compassion for the elderly lady would be in order

I had heard that French story before but a different variation of it. A man in (say) his 40s married a much older and very wealthy woman, figuring that she would die and he would inherit. She lived to be well over 100 and he died before her.

I think most people would want to get this situation resolved soon rather than sit around waiting for her to die. I once had a male tenant in his 70s who was on a very old pre-Thatcher lease, meaning that he would be near impossible to remove. But one day he had a fall and broke his hip. After that he could no longer get up the stairs. So the local authority rehoused him. Better for him and better for me.

Not that I am suggesting that Zico should engineer a fall, but she may move into care at some point. The very worst thing would be if she moves in a much younger family member. Another reason to deal with the issue rather than let it continue.

Thanks for all the responses so far. Just to provide some extra background and context, the lady (& son) put her house up for sale without first consulting my father or me, then subsequently persuading my father that this all made perfect sense because they were happy to give him a verbal promise to move out within a month (and her son also verbally confirmed to my father he would take her into his house) - and my father thinks this is fine, and that's what would happen.

I expressed my concerns privately to him about putting trust in verbal agreements (and showing him proof her son put the house on the market months before the date they had told him) but he reiterated his intention is that I would be his sole inheritor (as stated in his will) and he assures me I have absolutely nothing to worry about, because everybody will stick to their verbal agreements. He said he has no intention of marrying the lady. (He also said (and believes) that even if he did, that would make no difference to me - but a marriage automatically nullifies a will, in the eyes of the law.)

My father is considerably more frail than her, but puts himself at risk looking after her, so it's very likely that she will outlive him, probably by several years. He's told me their relationship is for company, not romance, and it certainly seems that way from what I've seen.

Thinking of worst-case scenarios, my concern is that her family would change the locks as soon as possible (though it's technically illegal), and then I wouldn't be able to even gain access to the home, and any court orders simply wouldn't be executed due to the age of the lady. I think my next step may be to ask him to write down his wishes, so I at least have something non-verbal and recent. (A few months ago, during a discussion with him, I wrote down his views, and asked him to sign them, which he did, but it would be far better for him to write them. I doubt he'd agree to writing a valid legally witnessed document - he thinks there's no need to do anything, because everyone will stick to verbal agreements.)

In an ideal (normal) world, the lady would have retained her home, so she could simply move back to it if my father died first. She's obviously entitled to sell her house if she wants, but in a normal situation, the future implications would have been discussed amongst all parties concerned, and an acceptable solution agreed should my father die first. None of this happened.

Clitheroekid wrote:You can't just change the locks. Although as an `excluded occupier’ she has very limited rights she is nevertheless entitled to reasonable notice.

There’s no deification of reasonable notice, but 28 days is generally considered OK for this type of situation.

I can see that as a requirement on the existing licensor. But after his death, what is the relationship between the lady and the executors / new owner of the house? They have not granted her any licence. I am deliberately limiting myself to what they can legally do.

Since the lady is 95, it is possible that her son has both forms of LPA in place and 'triggered' - so OP would be dealing with him and not her.

zico wrote:Thinking of worst-case scenarios, my concern is that her family would change the locks as soon as possible (though it's technically illegal), and then I wouldn't be able to even gain access to the home,

Without making any moral judgement, is this correct?

Surely if you can't get into your own home with your keys, you can smash a window, get in and then call in a locksmith to sort out all the "broken" locks which your keys will no longer operate?

zico wrote:A few months ago, during a discussion with him, I wrote down his views, and asked him to sign them, which he did, but it would be far better for him to write them. I doubt he'd agree to writing a valid legally witnessed document - he thinks there's no need to do anything, because everyone will stick to verbal agreements.

Hmmmm ... I understand your concern. Clearly one approach to resolve the issue is to convince him to formalise his view in a legally witnessed document. Maybe if you took him to a solicitor?

Anyway, from what I can make out the lady has a "bare licence", as there's no consideration to make it a contractual one.

"A bare licence is where someone has been given simple permission to live in accommodation. For example, a friend invited to look after a flat while somebody is on holiday or a young person living with their parents is likely to be a bare licensee.

A contractual licence is where a licence arises out of a contract under which the licensee has to perform a service or pay money in return for accommodation but where the conditions for creating a tenancy are not met. The contract can be verbal or written. It is very important to look at exactly what was said or written in the agreement."
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/renting/introduction_to_security_of_tenure/what_is_a_licence

genou wrote:But after his death, what is the relationship between the lady and the executors / new owner of the house? They have not granted her any licence.

Several sources say that a bare licence is automatically revoked upon death of licensor

"Revocation – a bare licence can be revoked, however person revoking it must allow a
reasonable amount of time for the person to leave, after this time is up, if he
remains on the land he becomes a trespasser.
- Licence is also automatically revoked upon death of licensor"
https://www.studocu.com/en-gb/document/university-of-oxford/land-law/licences-and-proprietary-estoppel-revision-notes/1723258

Also here and others. Not sure how much that knowledge helps though ...

staffordian wrote:Surely if you can't get into your own home with your keys, you can smash a window, get in and then call in a locksmith to sort out all the "broken" locks which your keys will no longer operate?

On a purely practical note, it would be much cheaper to get the locksmith to let you in and NOT break the window. He’ll only have to drill out the lock you want replacing anyway. Locks are cheaper and easier to fix than windows.

Locksmiths will open locks for landlords. You will need to satisfy them that you have the correct right of entry, have give an appropriate notice etc. For which the rest of this thread is relevant.

Gryff

gryffron wrote:

staffordian wrote:Surely if you can't get into your own home with your keys, you can smash a window, get in and then call in a locksmith to sort out all the "broken" locks which your keys will no longer operate?

On a purely practical note, it would be much cheaper to get the locksmith to let you in and NOT break the window. He’ll only have to drill out the lock you want replacing anyway. Locks are cheaper and easier to fix than windows.

And while you're in there, if she's still in-situ, leave a dead kipper under the floorboards.

V8

88V8 wrote:

gryffron wrote:

staffordian wrote:Surely if you can't get into your own home with your keys, you can smash a window, get in and then call in a locksmith to sort out all the "broken" locks which your keys will no longer operate?

On a purely practical note, it would be much cheaper to get the locksmith to let you in and NOT break the window. He’ll only have to drill out the lock you want replacing anyway. Locks are cheaper and easier to fix than windows.

And while you're in there, if she's still in-situ, leave a dead kipper under the floorboards.

V8

Or if you can't be bothered lifting boards you can get a similar effect by placing frozen prawns inside things like the curtain rail

88V8 wrote:

gryffron wrote:

staffordian wrote:Surely if you can't get into your own home with your keys, you can smash a window, get in and then call in a locksmith to sort out all the "broken" locks which your keys will no longer operate?

On a purely practical note, it would be much cheaper to get the locksmith to let you in and NOT break the window. He’ll only have to drill out the lock you want replacing anyway. Locks are cheaper and easier to fix than windows.

And while you're in there, if she's still in-situ, leave a dead kipper under the floorboards.

V8

Point of Order M'Lud...
There is no such thing as a live kipper. All kippers are dead - the process of kippering is fatal to herrings.

Anyway back on topic. I had a near identical situation arise when my dear old dad died. His woman lived in his house and her avaricious son had persuaded her to sell her house and give him 'his inheritance' before she died. Charming chap. My dad died and she announced she had nowhere to live and was gonna stay put, encouraged by the son who did not want her moving in with him. Curiously the situation self-resolved a couple of weeks after my dad's passing when she announced she didn't like living in his house alone and was moving out. She rented a house in Devon and moved out, all in about a week. Like the OP my dad saw no looming problem but I think had she not moved out spontaneously, it would have helped if my dad had put a clause in his will bequeathing her a right of occupation for some fixed period or other following after his passing. He would have been far more amenable to this (had we thought of it in advance), than wheeling him off to a solicitor to sign something separate.

mc2fool wrote:We should remember that the OP said, "At the start of Covid, my father invited a lady in her nineties to live with him in his house, after which she sold her house..."

It's already been alluded to that her son is a landlord and perhaps something of a rotter. How do you know she sold her house, maybe he had Power of Attorney (or similarly legit. capacity) and on her moving to the house in question, sold her original house on her behalf? - Just a suggestion as in such a case it might pay to consider worst-case scenarios in order to protect oneself.

I'd certainly be putting on a LandReg Title Search e-mail advice on this house in question. That'd be a 5 minute job as a first minor line of defence...