General advice/tips on the steps after death

[pje16]

I know but it only takes one ornery custodian to refuse release of funds and then you have to deal with probate.

and I bet it is a world full of jobsmiths

[AF62]

I am going through this at this moment after my mother died recently and my thoughts / suggestions in addition to the very good suggestions from DrFfybes are -

- When you register the death the registrar will give you a 'tell us once' registration number - this is the one for all the government departments and not the financial institutions, and in my view from when my father died a couple of years ago it worked well and seems to have done so again for my mother - https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death/organi ... ll-us-once

- Separately there is the 'death notification' service for the financial institutions - https://www.deathnotificationservice.co.uk/ As mentioned this does freeze the bank accounts until the death is registered (it can be used before registering the death) and they will remain frozen if probate is needed. Whether freezing the account is a good or a bad thing is dependent on circumstances and whether you know what is being paid out from the account.

I didn't use the 'death notification' service for my father as the only accounts he held were joint with my mother and I didn't want anything to go wrong with her accounts, but I did use it for my mother as I wasn't entirely sure of the regular payments she had set up.

When dealing with the banks and other financial institutions I did find them to be well set up to deal with this, and did so efficiently. Slightly less efficient were all the other organisations who needed to be notified, for example a National Trust membership, subscriptions to magazines, etc. - all seemed to have different, and not always sensible, processes.

If the only assets are money in the bank and not any property only by the deceased on their own, then probate might not be required if the amounts are not that high - some banks will release up to £50k without probate. After my father died my mother moved into a care home and sold her home, so her circumstances were easier to deal with than many might be.

If you decide to do the probate yourself (if her affairs are simple) then you can either fill in a paper form and send it off or you can complete a web form on the probate website (https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate ... or-probate) and the web form is a *lot* easier than the paper form. When the web form is complete and submitted you are provided with a code number to write on a piece of paper and send with the original will to the probate office.

Insurance and pension companies are not part of the 'death notification' service so you need to contact them separately.

- There is another notification service for 'junk mail' - https://www.thebereavementregister.org.uk/ although how well that works I am not sure, but it does seem to have reduced the marketing mail.

Registering the death - sounds obvious but take along the deceased's birth and marriage certificates (etc.) if you have them, as when the registrar asks something blindingly obvious like "how is their middle name spelt" you are not doubting yourself. I paid for three death certificates both for my father and mother and found that was plenty, but if you find it isn't then it is easy (and no more expensive) to order more afterwards.

One task I had which could have been made easier if my mother had not died suddenly, was updating her address book to know which of her friends to notify. In the end I had to rely on an old Christmas card list and Christmas cards she had kept to try to work out which of her friends was still alive and which were not. I sent out fairly standard letters letting them know of my mother's death, and to make things easier for the recipient I added my email address to save them needing to put pen to paper, and I did get quite a few emails from sons/daughters, etc. saying that mum's friend had died in the last year - when you get to 89 not many are left around you.

[Clitheroekid]

I am a big believer in avoiding probate if at all possible. It saves money, time, effort, frustration and risk.

If as an executor and/or beneficiary, I can get the assets in my hands without probate then I always will. The rest can be sorted out later - possession is nine points of the law, as someone apparently once said.

In a case involving a house it can't be avoided, as you won't be able to sell the house without a grant of probate.

Likewise, if there are any significant investments, such as shares, bonds etc, a grant will be required to transfer / sell them.

One useful tip, if there's time, is to check if your mother has any shares or other investments that are registered in foreign countries. These can be a real pain to deal with, and it may involve hiring local lawyers and paying often substantial legal fees in relation to the value of the holding. For example, shares registered in Jersey will often need a local grant of probate to be obtained, and Jersey lawyers are as expensive as you'd expect.

Although it's essential to consider the tax position (any CGT liability disappears on death) it may be sensible to sell these before death, if practicable.

You may think it's unlikely that she would hold any such shares, but they're surprisingly common. I'm dealing with several estates where, in particular, shares in Kraft and Mondelez were held, as a result of these companies having taken over UK ones, and issued shares instead of cash. Both companies are registered in the USA, and it's an expensive nightmare trying to get them sold / transferred, involving long telephone calls to Louisville, Kentucky, and conversations with people who appear to be astonished that anyone actually lives outside the USA.

The same applies to property owned overseas, as this can also be a lot more difficult and expensive to sell after death than during the owner's lifetime. Obviously, however, this would again only be practicable where someone has sufficient prior warning that they are dying.

It's often the case that funeral firms offer hefty discounts for quick payment, but the family may not be able to raise the several thousand pounds involved, and have to wait for probate, by which time the discount's gone. However, what few people know is that banks and building societies will allow funds in the deceased's account to be withdrawn for funeral bills before probate's been granted.

This also applies to the payment of inheritance tax, which needs to be paid before probate can be granted.

As there's a house you need to consider how to value it. If inheritance tax is payable then value it as low as possible, as every extra pound on the valuation incurs 40p tax. OK, you may have to pay capital gains tax when it's sold, but that will be at a much lower rate.

If there's no IHT payable then value it as high as possible, as it's the death value that's the staring point for any future CGT calculation. And to minimise CGT you can transfer it into the joint names of you and your sister before you sell it, so you can each benefit from your annual £12,300 exemption (though this may not apply if you live overseas).

Find out if the solicitor is an executor, and, if so, you might consider asking them for a fee quote to deal with the estate. Most firms, especially small ones, will probably be fairly reasonable, but there are still some who insist on taking a percentage of the estate as well as hourly charges, and this is not on. If there is a solicitor appointed, and you and your mother aren't happy about it, your mother can easily make a codicil removing them, and the solicitor doesn't need to be involved.

It's a miserable situation to be in, and it may seem a bit callous to be considering such practicalities, but having probate hassles while you're still trying to come to terms with the death is the last thing you need, so anything you can do, within reason, to mitigate these will definitely be worthwhile.

[Lootman]

I am a big believer in avoiding probate if at all possible. It saves money, time, effort, frustration and risk.

If as an executor and/or beneficiary, I can get the assets in my hands without probate then I always will. The rest can be sorted out later - possession is nine points of the law, as someone apparently once said.

In a case involving a house it can't be avoided, as you won't be able to sell the house without a grant of probate.

Likewise, if there are any significant investments, such as shares, bonds etc, a grant will be required to transfer / sell them.

Believe me, I know. With my mother I had about 2 weeks notice that she was going to die. During that time I used my power of attorney (an "old style" EPA) to transfer all her financial assets to my account. So when she did die there was no need to initiate probate to get hold of those assets.

I had been trying to sell her home anyway, to help pay the care home fees. But sadly I could not quite exchange contracts on the sale before she died. So I had to go through probate anyway, just for that. It took 3 months and it cost me 2 grand. Very annoying as I was within days of avoiding the need for probate.

One useful tip, if there's time, is to check if your mother has any shares or other investments that are registered in foreign countries. These can be a real pain to deal with, and it may involve hiring local lawyers and paying often substantial legal fees in relation to the value of the holding.

I should pay more attention to that. I had thought that overseas securities held in UK nominee accounts, such as an ISA, would be easier to deal with than individual and/or certificated holdings, but maybe not.

[UncleEbenezer]

One useful tip, if there's time, is to check if your mother has any shares or other investments that are registered in foreign countries.

Interesting. Does that extend to assets held on a platform (SIPP, ISA or otherwise), or is it just when you're dealing directly with foreign red tape?

Not that I'll ever have to deal with that myself, but my executors might.

[Dod101]

One useful tip, if there's time, is to check if your mother has any shares or other investments that are registered in foreign countries.

Interesting. Does that extend to assets held on a platform (SIPP, ISA or otherwise), or is it just when you're dealing directly with foreign red tape?

Not that I'll ever have to deal with that myself, but my executors might.

I am in the same position but I would be very surprised if there were a problem since the legal owner is the nominee company not the beneficial owner, and that surely is what the foreign authorities are concerned about.

Dod

[hiriskpaul]

I vaguely remember that premium bonds and other NS&I investments often require probate as the NS&I set the threshold very low. I have been dealing with my uncle's estate the last 3 years and remember NS&I being a problem, although probate was needed for other reasons. On a positive note, premium bonds can stay invested for 1 year after death with prizes paid to the estate tax free, which can be useful.

[Lootman]

One useful tip, if there's time, is to check if your mother has any shares or other investments that are registered in foreign countries.

Interesting. Does that extend to assets held on a platform (SIPP, ISA or otherwise), or is it just when you're dealing directly with foreign red tape?

Not that I'll ever have to deal with that myself, but my executors might.

I am in the same position but I would be very surprised if there were a problem since the legal owner is the nominee company not the beneficial owner, and that surely is what the foreign authorities are concerned about.

I would have thought so too, and certainly assumed that. Once your executor has access to your share-dealing account, then he can sell everything if he/she wants to. That would be handled just as a normal sale with its back office settling the trades in the usual way. The foreign share issuer neither knows nor cares because you are not on the registry.

But CK actually deals with this and I don't, so it would be good to know for sure. I am all about hot making work for my NOK.

[UncleEbenezer]

One useful tip, if there's time, is to check if your mother has any shares or other investments that are registered in foreign countries.

Interesting. Does that extend to assets held on a platform (SIPP, ISA or otherwise), or is it just when you're dealing directly with foreign red tape?

Not that I'll ever have to deal with that myself, but my executors might.

I am in the same position but I would be very surprised if there were a problem since the legal owner is the nominee company not the beneficial owner, and that surely is what the foreign authorities are concerned about.

I would have thought so too, and certainly assumed that.

Indeed, that would seem intuitive. But then, my SIPP provider needs to hold US tax documentation for me to hold US shares in my SIPP, so at least one difficult foreign country peers inside the wrapper.

[yorkshirelad1]

A few points to add (and having seen the excellent post by AF62 https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=496687#p496687 )

• Utility bills: I put my Mum's utility bills in my name and her name several years before she died, so I could help her with sorting them out (i.e. the utility cos would talk to me on the phone about her bills etc). On her death, I just left the utility accounts running (and changed the bank account on the direct debit to mine because her bank account was frozen) so the bills got paid on the house and one less bit of hassle at a time when there are a lot of other things to be dealing with (not having to create e.g. new gas bill account).
• Digital assets: I posted this a little while ago: https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=488420#p488420
• Which? did a book "What to do when someone dies", which is quite helpful. It has been out of print for a couple of years, but is largely correct and you can look on the web for updates etc. It seems there are some second hand copies on Amazon et al. "What to do when someone dies" ISBN 9781844901272

[Clitheroekid]

One useful tip, if there's time, is to check if your mother has any shares or other investments that are registered in foreign countries. These can be a real pain to deal with, and it may involve hiring local lawyers and paying often substantial legal fees in relation to the value of the holding.

I should pay more attention to that. I had thought that overseas securities held in UK nominee accounts, such as an ISA, would be easier to deal with than individual and/or certificated holdings, but maybe not.

Yes, I should probably have clarified that the problems that I've encountered have been with certificated holdings, not those held in nominee accounts.

This is probably because the majority of estates that I've been dealing with have been elderly people, many of whom have inherited shares from their spouse (nearly always their husband). They often have little or no interest in the shares or investments generally, so have never bothered to deal with them at all, let alone go to the trouble of migrating the holdings into a nominee account - indeed, I very much doubt if the vast majority of these people would even know what a nominee account is.

This also explains the problem with the foreign shares. In all the cases I've mentioned what's happened is that the husband was an active investor, who maintained a portfolio of (certificated) shares. He then died, and his wife inherited them, but had no interest in them. Consequently, when a company was taken over, e.g. Cadbury by Kraft, she would just have binned the incomprehensible 100 page takeover documents, and ended up owning Kraft shares that were traded on the NYSE.

But this is probably a generational thing. As that generation, who dealt only in certificated holdings, dies out, so the problem may gradually disappear - I sincerely hope so!

[yorkshirelad1]

One useful tip, if there's time, is to check if your mother has any shares or other investments that are registered in foreign countries. These can be a real pain to deal with, and it may involve hiring local lawyers and paying often substantial legal fees in relation to the value of the holding.

I should pay more attention to that. I had thought that overseas securities held in UK nominee accounts, such as an ISA, would be easier to deal with than individual and/or certificated holdings, but maybe not.

Yes, I should probably have clarified that the problems that I've encountered have been with certificated holdings, not those held in nominee accounts.

This is probably because the majority of estates that I've been dealing with have been elderly people, many of whom have inherited shares from their spouse (nearly always their husband). They often have little or no interest in the shares or investments generally, so have never bothered to deal with them at all, let alone go to the trouble of migrating the holdings into a nominee account - indeed, I very much doubt if the vast majority of these people would even know what a nominee account is.

This also explains the problem with the foreign shares. In all the cases I've mentioned what's happened is that the husband was an active investor, who maintained a portfolio of (certificated) shares. He then died, and his wife inherited them, but had no interest in them. Consequently, when a company was taken over, e.g. Cadbury by Kraft, she would just have binned the incomprehensible 100 page takeover documents, and ended up owning Kraft shares that were traded on the NYSE.

But this is probably a generational thing. As that generation, who dealt only in certificated holdings, dies out, so the problem may gradually disappear - I sincerely hope so!

Nominees are, by some people, much disliked. However, a few years before my Mum died, I persuaded her to put all her shares into the broker nominee (there was much work hunting down and tidying up decades of paper certificates in various desks). When she subsequently moved house, there was only one address to change (the broker). When she died a couple of years after that, the share portfolio admin and transfer to the beneficiaries was much easier: all done by the broker in one go, and not many shareholdings across several registrars (and some foreign holdings already in the nominee). Nominees aren't always a good thing, but in this case, it saved me (the exor) a whole load of hassle (when I had enough on my plate).

[AF62]

Utility bills: I put my Mum's utility bills in my name and her name several years before she died, so I could help her with sorting them out (i.e. the utility cos would talk to me on the phone about her bills etc).

As an alternative, whilst my mother was alive I found that the utility companies (gas, electricity, water, broadband, council, etc.) were happy to add a note to my mother’s account that I could speak to them on her behalf about the running of the accounts.

The different organisations called it different things, permission to speak, third party bill management, etc. but effectively it meant we didn’t have to go through the hassle of them trying to verify an old lady, hard of hearing and with a poor memory! Some information here - https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecom ... f-attorney

[torata]

A belated thanks to all who contributed.

The information here was useful and helped persuade my sister to be more practical, allowing us then to make better preparations and so avoid some potential big headaches.

torata

[yorkshirelad1]

Having done this a few times (as a lay person)

There are various forms/booklets that various institutions offer (mostly for their own benefit but a useful template) of information that exors will need. You could try and find one or two of those and start filling them in. Google for something like "dying tidily" and I've posted a couple of links in TLF in the past.

The TellUsOnce service (for govt departs etc) seemed good for me (used it as exor 3 times now).
There's a banking equivalent (which I wouldn't use, I would notify individually), the death notification service that AF62 has posted.

I left the deceased's accounts running for a few weeks to make sure (utility) direct debits got paid (it's a complete ballache changing direct debits in haste and you can do it at your leisure).
You should be able to get statements of the deceased's accounts so there's a "paper" trail of what's happened when you (or someone else) need to do accounts.

Some banks can be picky about when they let you open an exors accounts.
TBH, I opened a separate account in my name (before I could get an exor's account or I could get probate) to process payments etc and keep them separate (for my own sake/sanity, and easier "house-keeping" and so I had a separate "paper" trail if I had to evidence anything).

If you need to pay IHT (to get probate) and there is cash in the deceased's frozen (before probate) bank accounts that you would like to use to pay IHT (that old catch 22!), you can use HMRC's "Direct Payment Scheme" to make payments direct from the Deceased's frozen accounts direct to HMRC to pay IHT (there are special forms to fill in that you send to HRMC that they send to the bank).

[modellingman]

I vaguely remember that premium bonds and other NS&I investments often require probate as the NS&I set the threshold very low. I have been dealing with my uncle's estate the last 3 years and remember NS&I being a problem, although probate was needed for other reasons. On a positive note, premium bonds can stay invested for 1 year after death with prizes paid to the estate tax free, which can be useful.

I am in middle of dealing with my daughter's fairly uncomplicated estate. This is my experience so far.

The NS&I limit is £5,000 but the Director General reserves the right to require probate even if the holding is lower. Bizarrely, NS&I's online system does not provide the facility to upload documents such as a death certificate, unlike the banks that I have so far contacted (Halifax and NatWest) whose front ends are fully online.

Nationwide wanted an original or certified physical copy of the death certificate sending to them. Certification is possible in branch but the local branch seemed surprised when I walked in and requested this. Only when I showed them the letter from their own bereavement department did I get help and co-operation.

Student Loans Company, which probably doesn't apply to any cases being discussed on this thread, has no mention of bereavement on its website (or none I could find) so I just wrote to them asking what they wanted. I expect they will eventually respond but I'm not holding my breath.

[MDW1954]

This is a very interesting thread. I can see that things have definitely moved on since I last did this in 2010.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

MDW1954