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Redundancy and any HR advice

including wills and probate
Purplepower
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Redundancy and any HR advice

#517742

Postby Purplepower » July 27th, 2022, 7:59 pm

Hello :D ,before I post my/my work colleagues current situation with a sudden redundancy announcement, are there any HR people who are here to give advice or guidance?
It's the first time for most of us to face redundancy, so we are all a bit unsure of some things and was hoping to get some advice.
Thank you in advance.

dionaeamuscipula
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#517840

Postby dionaeamuscipula » July 28th, 2022, 10:13 am

Melonfool who is an HR professional seems to have dropped off the boards.

I've got a bit of experience - hey, I once made myself redundant - but I'm not an HR professional.

Your best bet *might* be to contact a union if you and your colleagues aren't already members, or to insist that your employers give you paid access to an HR lawyer. If you are asked to sign a formal settlement agreement then it is a legal requirement that you take legal advice, and it is normal for your employer to fund or contribute to the cost of that advice.

DM

dionaeamuscipula
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#517841

Postby dionaeamuscipula » July 28th, 2022, 10:14 am

... and to educate yourself, start here:

https://www.acas.org.uk/redundancy

DM

AF62
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#517884

Postby AF62 » July 28th, 2022, 12:16 pm

dionaeamuscipula wrote:or to insist that your employers give you paid access to an HR lawyer. If you are asked to sign a formal settlement agreement then it is a legal requirement that you take legal advice, and it is normal for your employer to fund or contribute to the cost of that advice.


My understanding was a formal settlement was an alternative some employers offered instead of going through the redundancy process and needing to meet all those legal requirements e.g. notice periods, consultation, etc. and was effectively just a ‘take this larger sum of money and go’ offer.

But for the redundancy process itself there is no legal requirement to provide those being made redundant, although some employers might choose to do so.

Anyway my experience of redundancy is -

- HR are not your friends. They are there to protect the company not you.
- It isn’t personal (in most cases), it just is what it is.
- Understand what you should receive and make sure you get that and move on.
- Those left behind still have their jobs to do. Don’t make it awkward for them, just leave professionally.

dionaeamuscipula
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#518792

Postby dionaeamuscipula » August 1st, 2022, 1:59 pm

AF62 wrote:
dionaeamuscipula wrote:or to insist that your employers give you paid access to an HR lawyer. If you are asked to sign a formal settlement agreement then it is a legal requirement that you take legal advice, and it is normal for your employer to fund or contribute to the cost of that advice.


My understanding was a formal settlement was an alternative some employers offered instead of going through the redundancy process and needing to meet all those legal requirements e.g. notice periods, consultation, etc. and was effectively just a ‘take this larger sum of money and go’ offer.


Yes, although it is not necessarily an alternative, depending on the circumstances. For example if there is any possibility that a normal redundancy might possibly trigger a claim for discrimination on the basis of a protected characteristic, although that would be rare. I mentioned it mainly in the context of independent advice.

DM

kempiejon
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#518821

Postby kempiejon » August 1st, 2022, 3:25 pm

I was offered a compromise agreement, it was because I disputed what they offered as my package. I think they had the details wrong relating to my length of service but they didn't agree so my initial settlement was based upon their understanding and our contractual agreement in place at. I disputed it and offered evidence. Once I suggested I wasn't going to take their formal offer and would be looking to dispute it they gave me £150 to find a brief and take legal advice. They offered me the amount I thought I was entitled to but because it was out of the ordinary I had to take the advice to accept what I felt I was entitled to anyway.

quelquod
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#518851

Postby quelquod » August 1st, 2022, 5:07 pm

kempiejon wrote:I was offered a compromise agreement, it was because I disputed what they offered as my package. I think they had the details wrong relating to my length of service but they didn't agree so my initial settlement was based upon their understanding and our contractual agreement in place at. I disputed it and offered evidence. Once I suggested I wasn't going to take their formal offer and would be looking to dispute it they gave me £150 to find a brief and take legal advice. They offered me the amount I thought I was entitled to but because it was out of the ordinary I had to take the advice to accept what I felt I was entitled to anyway.

I had an identical experience. I disputed a redundancy package as my notice period extended my length of service into a further year. After reviewing it HR agreed but required me to have a lawyer sign a form to say that he had advised me (which they paid for). Seemed daft!

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#518869

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 1st, 2022, 6:11 pm

kempiejon wrote:I was offered a compromise agreement, it was because I disputed what they offered as my package.

I think the term "compromise agreement" is a catch-all phrase for a redundancy package above what the law requires.

I've had a generous redundancy package once in my life. They offered it without my having to argue for anything(!), and I accepted immediately. Very happy to get on with my life and let them get on with their business (the company had taken over my previous employer). They still called it a compromise agreement, and insisted I get it signed off by a lawyer (grumble).

kempiejon
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#518870

Postby kempiejon » August 1st, 2022, 6:15 pm

kempiejon wrote: After reviewing it HR agreed but required me to have a lawyer sign a form to say that he had advised me (which they paid for). Seemed daft!


Yup, what I thought. Presumably mitigating some perceived statutory risk.

gryffron
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#518880

Postby gryffron » August 1st, 2022, 6:44 pm

Hi,
I've been involved from the management side.

Mostly importantly. They can and they will. There's no point putting any physical or emotional effort into fighting it. Accept it and move on.

That said, there are rules and regulations. Hoops that management must jump through to do it properly. And if they don't, you can sting them for a sizeable payoff. So I concur with the previous posters you should know the rules and check they are followed. But understand the previous posters are just talking about how to improve the settlement. Not how to prevent it happening.

Also worth knowing, employers are required to allow redundant employees to spend their time "searching for other work". So there is no need for you to actually work during your redundancy period. Most people walk out immediately. And to be fair, many employers prefer it that way, and defence/finance companies insist on it! Since disgruntled redundant employees hanging around can cause a lot of stress for the management and remaining workforce.

Ask us anything you need to know. Someone here will have the answers.

Gryff

EverybodyKnows
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#518884

Postby EverybodyKnows » August 1st, 2022, 6:53 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
kempiejon wrote:I was offered a compromise agreement, it was because I disputed what they offered as my package.

I think the term "compromise agreement" is a catch-all phrase for a redundancy package above what the law requires.

I've had a generous redundancy package once in my life. They offered it without my having to argue for anything(!), and I accepted immediately. Very happy to get on with my life and let them get on with their business (the company had taken over my previous employer). They still called it a compromise agreement, and insisted I get it signed off by a lawyer (grumble).


A compromise agreement is the old name for a settlement agreement. It is a way for you to waive your statutory rights - usually in exchange for cash and / or an agreed reference. Some employers pay enhanced packages without one. Employers are obliged to allow you reasonable time off to look for other work.

monabri
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#518914

Postby monabri » August 1st, 2022, 8:13 pm

AF62 wrote:- HR are not your friends. They are there to protect the company not you.


Absolutely. 100% agree.

dionaeamuscipula
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#518973

Postby dionaeamuscipula » August 1st, 2022, 10:54 pm

quelquod wrote:

I had an identical experience. I disputed a redundancy package as my notice period extended my length of service into a further year. After reviewing it HR agreed but required me to have a lawyer sign a form to say that he had advised me (which they paid for). Seemed daft![/quote]

If you are signing a settlement agreement (which as someone else has said is the replacement for compromise agreement) then you are signing away all of your employment rights. As such it is a legal requirement that you must take independent legal advice, and if you do not the agreement is void. Since the certainty that you cannot sue is what the settlement agreement is all about from an employers point of view, they WILL insist on the employee taking advice.

The letter from the independent lawyer confirming that they have given advice is appended to the settlement agreement.

DM

Crazbe7
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#519002

Postby Crazbe7 » August 2nd, 2022, 8:01 am


Purplepower
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#519953

Postby Purplepower » August 4th, 2022, 11:10 pm

Thank you all who have taken the time to reply.
This is all new to me. I am over the shock and hoping all will turn out positive in the end.

We are having our 3rd consultations this week as it is still a 'proposal' but we know it will go ahead. I am happy to walk away with my basic package plus a little bit extra, not much, but it is something.

We haven't been offered to speak to any legal people as of yet, and others have many questions that aren't being answered, or they are questioning. From what I understand, they are too scared to ask a union rep in case it causes issues with their redundancy package.
Some people (5) have been told they have to stay until end of Feb, no incentive or retention offered, this is to make sure the work moving to China/Poland goes smoothly, and everyone else (8) is gone end of Nov. The ones having to stay are upset as they want to just go with the rest of us and feel they are being used, I suppose they are feeling very angry. They have been told they have no choice but to stay and help, or no redundancy.
Someone has been told they aren't allowed to apply for a job at the company, ever. This came as a shock. The company have kept the redundancies very quiet within the company too.
Some of my colleagues have been there for over 20 years and cannot believe how they are being treated during this all. High up bosses have said if our productivity falls, it could affect our redundancy. One Team Leader said it feels very threatening.
I am looking forward to seeing the back of this very large company, it feels very toxic now.
As I said, this is new to me, my partner has been through redundancy a few times so we know how it goes, but regarding the legal side, it just goes over my head.
Do you think it would be worth asking if they are willing to let us speak to a legal team, or would this be at the point before we sign the paperwork?

Thanks

MrFoolish
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#520006

Postby MrFoolish » August 5th, 2022, 9:54 am

Purplepower wrote:Do you think it would be worth asking if they are willing to let us speak to a legal team, or would this be at the point before we sign the paperwork?

Thanks


Did they ask for your permission before they spoke to their legal team?

AF62
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#520012

Postby AF62 » August 5th, 2022, 10:04 am

Purplepower wrote:Thank you all who have taken the time to reply.
This is all new to me. I am over the shock and hoping all will turn out positive in the end.

We are having our 3rd consultations this week as it is still a 'proposal' but we know it will go ahead. I am happy to walk away with my basic package plus a little bit extra, not much, but it is something.

We haven't been offered to speak to any legal people as of yet, and others have many questions that aren't being answered, or they are questioning. From what I understand, they are too scared to ask a union rep in case it causes issues with their redundancy package.


If you are members of a union it is definitely worth speaking to a union rep - if nothing else in confidence outside work time if they are concerned about retribution from their employer. Unions, if good for not much else, know the rules and processes and often know them far better than an employer who might be going through it for the first time.

Purplepower wrote:Some people (5) have been told they have to stay until end of Feb, no incentive or retention offered, this is to make sure the work moving to China/Poland goes smoothly, and everyone else (8) is gone end of Nov. The ones having to stay are upset as they want to just go with the rest of us and feel they are being used, I suppose they are feeling very angry. They have been told they have no choice but to stay and help, or no redundancy.


For the eight the risk they run is that if they leave at November that will be their choice, so it isn't redundancy and so no payment.

Likewise if they choose not to work productively between November and February then they run the risk of dismissal and again no redundancy payment. Again this is where the union may be helpful, examining the terms of their contract and what they are required to do.

As the employer will want their new Chinese and Polish staff well trained then they will be motivated to ensure that is done well, and may be persuaded to reward the people doing that in some way - it might be monetary or enhanced references.

Purplepower wrote:Someone has been told they aren't allowed to apply for a job at the company, ever. This came as a shock.


Unless they are breaking discrimination law then employers can choose not to employ people.

Purplepower wrote:The company have kept the redundancies very quiet within the company too.


They often do, and it is always foolish as it inevitably leaks and then they are not in control of the message and are playing 'catch up'. But they never learn.

Purplepower wrote:Some of my colleagues have been there for over 20 years and cannot believe how they are being treated during this all. High up bosses have said if our productivity falls, it could affect our redundancy. One Team Leader said it feels very threatening.


If you are only being paid statutory redundancy then unless they actually dismiss people then they have no threat, but again, time to get the union involved.

Purplepower wrote:I am looking forward to seeing the back of this very large company, it feels very toxic now.


Look forward, not back.

Companies don't make *people* redundant they make *roles* redundant. It isn't anything you or your colleagues have done' but the bosses working out they can make more profit operating from China and Poland.

Purplepower wrote:As I said, this is new to me, my partner has been through redundancy a few times so we know how it goes, but regarding the legal side, it just goes over my head.


The calculations for the statutory redundancy payments are reasonably straightforward, so just make sure you are getting at least that and that all the notice periods (which are again reasonably straightforward) are followed.

If they are offering more than statutory redundancy then as before, if you are a union member consulting confidentially with them to check what you are being offered is correct would be sensible.

Purplepower wrote:Do you think it would be worth asking if they are willing to let us speak to a legal team, or would this be at the point before we sign the paperwork?


It would need to be a legal team that was representing you and that they are paying for is what you would need. Will they offer that? Maybe, maybe not, but again if there is a union then getting them to negotiate this might be a sensible route.

Those who are going at the end of November should be now looking to see what their next move will be, getting their job application skills brushed up, and establishing which employers in the area are hiring so they can submit applications to tie in with the redundancy.

If there is nothing suitable available in November then they need to be aware they will be eligible for Job Seekers Allowance for up to six months and their redundancy payment won't have any effect on their claim (https://www.gov.uk/jobseekers-allowance/eligibility) but also that in December many employers are looking for temporary staff for the Christmas period.

gryffron
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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#520456

Postby gryffron » August 7th, 2022, 10:00 am

Purplepower wrote:Someone has been told they aren't allowed to apply for a job at the company, ever. This came as a shock.

Do you mean the same company or some competitor? Banning people working for competitors is almost always ruled an illegal restraint of trade. Again, your union should advise.

Gryff

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Re: Redundancy and any HR advice

#521355

Postby Purplepower » August 10th, 2022, 1:59 pm

Thank you for all the help and replies, they are very much appreciated.
We are no longer 'at risk' and the company is going ahead with the 40ish redundancies.
I asked if we would get anyone from a legal team to talk to, or go over things on our side, we can get someone but at a cost to ourselves. I kind of have trust that everything has been done correctly from their side.
Not the best time to look for a job in Dec/Jan, and I have decided to take some time out as i recently lost my beautiful mum and have/had been on one difficult road with her. So I think this will allow me to do so and be good for my own wellbeing as I am both mentally and emotionally exhausted, and having the extra job issues now thrown in hasn't been the best news. Onwards and upwards!

With regards to the job/company, it appears the company do not want this person back, ever.

Thank you all again!


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