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HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
IanTHughes
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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#210916

Postby IanTHughes » March 28th, 2019, 12:43 am

MDW1954 wrote:If it helps, here's how this could have played out:

1) IDpickering posts link to trading statement on Company News boards, and briefly summarises it.

2) He (or anyone else, for that matter) then posts something on HYP pointing to that post, if they feel like it, and says something like: "These IMB results look OK for now, but for how long can IMB continue to strip out costs and rationalise its global brands? Should HYPers be nervous about continued dividend growth over the short to medium term term?" This post doesn't simply regurgitate the trading statement, but raises HYP-specific about it. Note the reference there to HYP-specific!

3) Everyone piles in for a discussion.

That would all have been fine. Nothing Gulliveresque about that, and perfectly straightforward.
IanTHughes wrote:Change to:

1) IDpickering posts link to trading statement on HYP Practical board, and briefly summarises it.

2) ….

3) ….


and you have it in my view.

As I also said above, if the news item is not relevant to HYP Practical, the whole thread should be closed/moved, or otherwise moderated, as not suitable for discussion on HYP Practical at all, irrespective of any link to the Company News board or wherever. However, in my opinion, Trading Updates are a perfectly valid topic for HYP Practical, they should not be closed/moved and, if a thread/discussion is considered valid for HYP Practical, a direct link to the Trading Update news item itself should be allowed. I hope that is clearer?

Not all trading statement posts will attract comment and discussion. It is important, to avoid clogging up the HYP Practical board, that initial posts are posted on Company News, where other (non-HYPer) TLF users might also see them. Otherwise, we are mostly back to where were. It is quite permissible to post a brief announcement on HYP Practical saying that the details of the trading statement have been posted on Company News.

But what you are suggesting does not "avoid clogging up the HYP Practical board"! The post, linking to the Company News board has the same "clogging" effect. The only difference is that a reader of a HYP Practical board now has to go to the Company News board to find a link to a news item that he/she wishes to read in full! If the news item is relevant to HYP Practical, how is it "clogging" the board to allow a direct link to the news item in question, from the HYP Practical board, within a post that is allowed to remain?

MDW1954 wrote:Given that TLF is a broad church, and HYPing a minority sport within it, this exposes company news to the largest possible readership.

Posting solely on HYP Practical would not achieve this.

So, are the rules about company news items the same on any board or is it only HYP practical which is treated in this special way? Also, why the exceptions for news about dividends, corporate issues, results … etc... ? Do they not also need to be exposed to the largest possible readership?

I do understand the desire to present any news items to as broad an audience as possible but this could surely be achieved by simply copying the news item direct link to the Company News board. Why is it necessary to obliterate the direct link already in place on the HYP Practical board?

MDW1954 wrote:It's all about (2). Anything noteworthy would attract a (2). And I note that despite the heat in this thread, nobody has yet posted a (2) on HYP Practical, which rather supports my suspicion that there might not be a lot to say.

No, as it happens the Trading Update in question was not very noteworthy. But I hope you realise I was talking in general terms about the posting procedures currently in place, rather than this specific rather uninteresting news item

Look, I think I have clearly explained my thinking on this subject and if there is no change .. well … we shall just have to agree to disagree.

I will not further respond but once again I do thank you for listening


Ian

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#210920

Postby Alaric » March 28th, 2019, 1:11 am

IanTHughes wrote:So, are the rules about company news items the same on any board or is it only HYP practical which is treated in this special way?


The posters to HYP Practical demand special treatment.

IanTHughes
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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#210922

Postby IanTHughes » March 28th, 2019, 1:21 am

Alaric wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:So, are the rules about company news items the same on any board or is it only HYP practical which is treated in this special way?

The posters to HYP Practical demand special treatment.


No, not all "posters to the HYP Practical demand special treatment", only you and your ilk


Ian

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#210923

Postby Alaric » March 28th, 2019, 1:31 am

IanTHughes wrote:No, not all "posters to the HYP Practical demand special treatment", only you and your ilk


I have concluded that posting to HYP Practical is best avoided. The likelihood the someone will take offence is several degrees of magnitude higher than on any other board, even including "Polite discussions".

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#210955

Postby Dod101 » March 28th, 2019, 8:47 am

IanTHughes wrote:
Alaric wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:No, not all "posters to the HYP Practical demand special treatment", only you and your ilk

I have concluded that posting to HYP Practical is best avoided.


Well hurrah for that!


The loss of any member should be regarded as a failure of the system not an occasion for a hurrah. I happen to agree with you that MDW got this wrong but he is a mod and we must respect that. If you wish there is provision to take the matter to Clariman as you will know from the guidance. I do not feel strongly enough about it to do so myself so will take no action.

Dod

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#210958

Postby Wizard » March 28th, 2019, 8:52 am

While I still read it I now rarely post on HYP Practical. For me it is an utterly unintelligable mine field where rules differ depending who they are being applied to and who is applying them. For a long while I have wondered why more posts have not migrated to HY Strategies.

IanTHughes
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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#210967

Postby IanTHughes » March 28th, 2019, 9:09 am

Dod101 wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:
Alaric wrote:I have concluded that posting to HYP Practical is best avoided.

Well hurrah for that!

The loss of any member should be regarded as a failure of the system not an occasion for a hurrah.

You are right. Such a decision is personal to the user concerned and should of course remain so. But in this instance the site is not losing a member and if the decision results in non-HYP posts being directed to a more appropriate board, the user should be applauded and I do so.

Dod101 wrote:I happen to agree with you that MDW got this wrong but he is a mod and we must respect that. If you wish there is provision to take the matter to Clariman as you will know from the guidance. I do not feel strongly enough about it to do so myself so will take no action.

Well, this board is provided without charge and manned by volunteers who do a fine job. Even when, in my view, they do not get it right, I cannot say their motives are not honourable. I have I think made my feelings plain and I believe I have done so in a clear and rational way. If the powers that be decide to change these company news posting procedures, that would be great. If not, it will not be the end of the world.


Ian

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#210969

Postby IanTHughes » March 28th, 2019, 9:12 am

Wizard wrote:For a long while I have wondered why more posts have not migrated to HY Strategies.

I am sure that a lot of people wonder that, I know I do


Ian

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#210987

Postby dspp » March 28th, 2019, 9:41 am

IanTHughes wrote:
So, are the rules about company news items the same on any board or is it only HYP practical which is treated in this special way? Also, why the exceptions for news about dividends, corporate issues, results … etc... ? Do they not also need to be exposed to the largest possible readership?

Ian


Ian, all,

A few things:

1. The Company News (FTSE-350) board is - so far - only for FTSE-350. Therefore any news to do with AIM, bonds, ETFs, foreigners, VCTs, and many many many other specific investments simply cannot go in that board. Therefore they quite sensibly go to other locations without it causing any significant fuss. And in those other locations both the news, and the discussion about the specific news, and the wider discussions all tend to go on in parallel without any real issues.

2. Yes HYP-P is different, and for a number of reasons. For all sorts of reasons it has been given a privileged mandate & status, which the moderators do their best to uphold, but that comes with consequential responsibilities for users. Responsibilities that pertain to both non-HYP practitioners (e.g. don't go there, and if you do please respect those who do go there), and responsibilities that pertain to HYP-P practitioners (e.g. please remember that you are part of something bigger, and ideally don't cause scarce resources to be endlessly poured in).

I can imagine a time (in my more hopeful dreams) when (say) the AIM-listed oiler HUR might go to the FTSE main board in which case it would be a FTSE-350 company. However the historical discussion about it is in Oil & Gas & Energy, and the context for many of the discussions about it are there. Therefore I can see a moment when we may have to consider relocating it, or splitting the news element across to the FTSE-350, and just as with HYP-P there are pros and cons. So can I please say in advance, that with this and with all other cases, please do not be over quick to judge, or over zealous in judging when moderators inevitably get it wrong. There are many opportunities for us mods to get it wrong, and we thank you all for your patience when we fumble around a bit. I'm very glad to see you all being much more understanding of these issues now than at some times in the past, so thank you for that.

Regards, dspp

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#211011

Postby torata » March 28th, 2019, 10:51 am

I'm going to float this, because I too am rather confused as to why people are posting certain things.

My understanding of why the new board (and sub-boards) were set up was because people were simply posting links and text that were updates or news from companies.

It seemed to me that often there was no "added value" from the poster, in the form of comment or analysis.

Can that idea of "added value" not be used as an additional criterion (although rather vague) for where things should be pasted.

torata

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#211100

Postby MDW1954 » March 28th, 2019, 3:04 pm

torata wrote:I'm going to float this, because I too am rather confused as to why people are posting certain things.

My understanding of why the new board (and sub-boards) were set up was because people were simply posting links and text that were updates or news from companies.

It seemed to me that often there was no "added value" from the poster, in the form of comment or analysis.

Can that idea of "added value" not be used as an additional criterion (although rather vague) for where things should be pasted.

torata


Torata,

See my three-stage process that I outlined above.

What you propose would of course be acceptable, and is what happens now. For such posts to be permissible, they need two things, in my view:

1) A subject line that was more than just "XYZ trading statement"

2) Some meaningful discussion or comment about an issue raised by that statement. One might imagine, inter alia, that such comment or discussion might be around issues of dividend sustainability, a share price dip that might indicate a buying opportunity, or a hit to anticipated dividend growth.

All that is being said is that a bald "trading statement" post, with no comment or discussion, should be on the company news board.

MDW1954

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#211115

Postby Gengulphus » March 28th, 2019, 4:37 pm

Let me suggest what I think would be better rules about FTSE 350 company news items:

* Posts that are essentially only a link or link+quote (i.e. with no comment or only a very generic comment such as "Interesting news..." added by the poster) may be posted to the appropriate thread on the Company News board.

* On all other boards, posts which link to company news items are allowed provided the poster adds significant comment of their own that relates the news item reasonably directly to the board's topic, and to the thread's topic in the case of posting it to an existing thread. Something like "This might interest some here..." does not count as significant!

* Individual boards can have board-specific rules saying that 'essentially only a link or link+quote' news items of specific types can also be posted.

So for instance, the HYP Practical board could have a board-specific rule saying that links to results and dividend announcements about HYP companies can be posted without added comment (*). But if a trading statement contains a profit warning, one can post a link to it provided one explains why one sees it as a profit warning. It needn't be a long explanation - it could be just a quoted sentence saying that the management now expects earnings for the current year to be below the low end of market expectations, for example, introduced by the poster saying that that quote is a clear profit warning. But it does need to be an explanation and not just an assertion, like posts I've sometimes seen on other sites that just say "Profit warning..." with (if you're lucky!) a link to a trading statement. Faced with such a post and a long trading statement (which they often are!), it is often hard work and sometimes impossible to see what the poster regarded as a profit warning...

By the way, none of that is unique to profit warnings, nor to trading statements. When a company says that it's conducting a review of its dividend policy, for example, that's definitely of interest to HYPers, as it's usually code for "We're probably going to rebase [=cut] the dividend", and such an announcement might very well appear in an announcement of a strategic review or restructuring... Because of that, I think that a general rule giving usual conditions for being OK, plus board-specific rules saying "Things of these specific types are OK even if they don't adhere to the usual conditions", is much better than board-specific rules saying "Things not of these specific types are not OK".

And although I have never been a moderator, I'm pretty certain I would find the job of whether the poster had explained the relevance of a linked news item to the board [b]much[b] easier to adjudicate than the job of deciding whether a linked news items was sufficiently relevant to the board. Or put another way, it seems to me that rules along the lines I'm suggesting shift some of the burden of thinking about the relevance from moderators to posters - which is a good thing IMHO both because the poster is probably more familiar with the company than the moderator and because moderator time is clearly in much shorter supply than poster time!

(*) Though possibly with reminder guidance to posters that a quote that is actually about the dividend is a good idea, and that if one is posting about a company that is only historically a HYP company, it's a good idea to say so and roughly when it was selected.

Added just before posting: I've seen MDW1954's latest post on preview, and think that it indicates that he's thinking along the same lines as me, so maybe this is just a point about the wording of the rules rather than their intention. But I'll post it anyway, because wording rules in a way that reflects their intention well can make a big difference to how easy people find it to follow them!

Gengulphus

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#211117

Postby Dod101 » March 28th, 2019, 5:01 pm

MDW1954 wrote:See my three-stage process that I outlined above.

What you propose would of course be acceptable, and is what happens now. For such posts to be permissible, they need two things, in my view:

1) A subject line that was more than just "XYZ trading statement"

2) Some meaningful discussion or comment about an issue raised by that statement. One might imagine, inter alia, that such comment or discussion might be around issues of dividend sustainability, a share price dip that might indicate a buying opportunity, or a hit to anticipated dividend growth.

All that is being said is that a bald "trading statement" post, with no comment or discussion, should be on the company news board.

MDW1954


Well, now I can see the difference you are trying to make. The trouble is that we have so many nuances to determine what is or is not allowed in any given place that we will need to have a Users' Manual to be consulted before we post anything if we are not careful.

Why make it all so difficult I do not know.

Dod

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#211119

Postby MDW1954 » March 28th, 2019, 5:09 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
Added just before posting: I've seen MDW1954's latest post on preview, and think that it indicates that he's thinking along the same lines as me, so maybe this is just a point about the wording of the rules rather than their intention. But I'll post it anyway, because wording rules in a way that reflects their intention well can make a big difference to how easy people find it to follow them!

Gengulphus


Thank you, Gengulphus. Agreed. And yes, to confirm: a post that consisted solely of "this might interest some here..." would NOT qualify, and WOULD be moved.

MDW1954

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Re: HYP Practical Board - Company News items allowed

#211176

Postby torata » March 28th, 2019, 10:25 pm

MDW1954 wrote:
torata wrote:I'm going to float this, because I too am rather confused as to why people are posting certain things.

My understanding of why the new board (and sub-boards) were set up was because people were simply posting links and text that were updates or news from companies.

It seemed to me that often there was no "added value" from the poster, in the form of comment or analysis.

Can that idea of "added value" not be used as an additional criterion (although rather vague) for where things should be pasted.

torata


Torata,

See my three-stage process that I outlined above.

What you propose would of course be acceptable, and is what happens now. For such posts to be permissible, they need two things, in my view:

1) A subject line that was more than just "XYZ trading statement"

2) Some meaningful discussion or comment about an issue raised by that statement. One might imagine, inter alia, that such comment or discussion might be around issues of dividend sustainability, a share price dip that might indicate a buying opportunity, or a hit to anticipated dividend growth.

All that is being said is that a bald "trading statement" post, with no comment or discussion, should be on the company news board.

MDW1954


Makes perfect sense to me.

torata


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