My absence

[Gengulphus]

As various people have noted, I stopped posting on TLF around the end of November last year. I am breaking my silence now to explain why...

Basically, I had been getting increasingly frustrated / aggravated by the site, and especially with its apparent inability to stop the "HYP Practical wars". The basic reason for the board split on TMF in 2008 was to provide a haven where those who have decided they want to run a HYP strategy can get on with doing so in practice, without repeated disruptions to their discussions by questions of whether their decision to run a HYP strategy is a good one or not. This was reflected in the TMF HYP Practical board guidance, which gave pride of place at its start (questions 1 and 2) to saying that the board was to be used to discuss running HYP strategies in practice and specifically not whether they work or not, what to use instead of them, etc. It was also explicitly not about just a single strategy, but about a range of different strategies, and further down (question 6) it also gave some rules for determining whether a strategy was within that range.

The point I'm making is that the primary rule was about discussing practical issues to do with running HYP strategies and not decisions about whether to run them, and the rules about what did and did not count as a HYP strategy were basically there to support that primary rule by clarifying what they meant by the term.

That primary rule has basically been completely lost on TLF, at least as far as the posts that remain on the board and the board guidance are concerned - it just gives its somewhat different definition of what a HYP strategy is without the rule it was designed to support! I've seen some indications in moderator comments that moderators (or at least some of them) try to steer people away from 'to HYP or not to HYP?' discussions, but assuming that is the case, it seems to be to little effect - hardly surprising when the board guidance says nothing clearly against such discussions.

Apart from that rationale of providing a place for people to discuss running their HYP strategies in practice without repeated disruption by discussions of whether they should be running a HYP strategy at all, I have not come across any other rationale for HYP Practical being a separate board from High Yield Shares & Strategies that IMHO stands up to scrutiny. So I feel that TLF is falling between two stools on this: either having just one board or having two boards with a clear rule against 'to HYP or not to HYP?' discussions appearing on HYP Practical and sufficiently firm moderation to enforce that rule in practice would be better than having two boards without any clear distinction between them (or indeed with a clear distinction between them in theory but one that is widely disregarded and not enforced in practice).

I should add that while what I've said above about HYP Practical is the main aspect of TLF that I was finding frustrating and aggravating, it's not the only one. Others that frequently come up include:

* users having a combative focus on 'winning the debate' rather than 'having a mutually helpful discussion';

* users having an 'I know what you really think and am going to disregard what you actually said' attitude;

* users having a 'screw the subject and the facts, I'm going to express my opinions anyway no matter how irrelevant they are to the subject and how much the facts contradict them' attitude;

* as a sort of combination of the last two, users treating being given a link to and reminder of what someone actually wrote as expressing agreement with what they wrote;

* users trying to change the de facto scope of the HYP Practical board either to extend it (by posting about strategies that don't match its guidance) or to restrict it further (by insisting e.g. on 'strategic ignorance' being an essential part of a HYP strategy and not just something some HYPers choose to use in their own HYP strategies), rather than coming to the Biscuit Bar and seeing whether they can get TLF to make the change they want;

* moderators using counterproductive techniques - e.g. someone posts a disruptive off-topic comment into a discussion and a moderator locks the thread to deal with the ensuing arguments, with the result that the poster of the disruptive comment manages to get the discussion permanently disrupted and those who were waiting for the disruption to subside before posting find that their time never comes.

I should also add that the incident that led to me stopping posting last November was not particularly major - it was merely the last straw that led me to take another look at the question of whether I wanted to continue posting on TLF. I fairly quickly decided that no, I didn't - but I was feeling very aggravated at the time, and decided I'd better sleep on it a few times. That has stretched into a lot more times than I had intended, for a number of reasons - among them, being close to completing on buying a new house, the Christmas / New Year holiday season, working out how to adjust my life for our new COVID-19 dominated world, wanting to take another look at the site over a few weeks to see whether it had perhaps changed for the better (I'm sorry to say that IMHO, it hasn't), and the sheer difficulty of working out exactly what I wanted to say in this post and how I wanted to say it. By the way, I can reassure people that nothing significantly bad has happened to me personally.

Anyway, returning to my main issue about HYP Practical, I am not demanding that TLF adopts any particular solution to it, nor even that they change things at all from the status quo. I will live with whatever TLF decides to do, including "nothing" - but I will choose how I live with it and it will be the method I feel is best for me. Living with it by not posting at all is the top candidate at the moment and has been for some time - and frankly, on TLF's past record at dealing with the "HYP Practical wars" at all effectively, I very much doubt that's going to change...

Gengulphus

[GrahamPlatt]

Very glad to hear that you are fundamentally well Gengulphus.
I hold you in great esteem and would be very sorry if you were to stop contributing here. But I sympathise with your frustrations and see why you might.
Best wishes.

[IanTHughes]

Gengulphus,

All the best to you and yours

Great to hear from you and I have to say that I could not agree with you more! Indeed, I have been struggling with the same issues with regard to the "High Yield Portfolio (HYP) - Practical" board and whether to continue posting on it, but have never managed to clarify those issues as clearly as you have now done! Maybe I should make the same decision.



Ian

[Darka]

Glad you are well Gengulphus, and completely agree with your comments.

I've pretty much stopped posting on the lemon fool, apart from a few threads now and then and have considered leaving the site on more than a few occasions.

I find that most posts don't add anything and there is too much arguing; I can't be bothered with it most of the time.

There are only about 5 posters who's comments I used to enjoy reading, including yours and now that most of those are posting less I wonder about the future of the lemon fool and whether it's worth staying.

regards,

[idpickering]

Great to see you posting on TLF Gengulphus, and that you're ok. I agree with the points you've raised in your opening post. I've got frustrated on HYP Practical a number of times recently, and toyed with walking away. However, I'm not one to shy away from a fight, and will give as good as I get. One thing I hate are bullies, be they physically, or metaphorically via the web on sites such as this. I've mentioned a few times recently the term 'naysayers'. Those are them that a forever slagging off the HYP system, or belittling my, or others attempts, at managing my/their HYPs. I've gotten around being wound up by them by putting them on my 'ignore list'. Anyway, I'll close in saying your wisdom is greatly missed here on TLF, and particularly on HYP Practical. I support your stance, but hope to see you back spreading your ever-welcome wisdom. Hopefully the powers that be here will see your post, and take the appropriate actions.

Respectfully,

Ian.

[OLTB]

I'm just pleased to hear that you are in good health Gengulphus and hopefully ready to air words of wisdom.

Best wishes, OLTB.

[Arborbridge]

Gengulphus, I perfectly understand you reasoning but mostly I'm relieved to hear that all is well with you.

There are many times I have missed your cool analysis and wished that you were around to put your authoritative stamp on the action. My hope is that if you do not wish to join us frequently, that from time to time, you will pop in to make us stop and think or clarify some point with your background knowledge. TLF is sadly much worse of without you.

I really hope that the organisers of this site will consider seriously what you have written and try to make some relevant changes to cure these problems of which several of us are aware, but which we reluctantly tolerate. Thank you for making so many pertinent points which sum up how many of us feel about the deterioration of the board.

So glad to hear you are well.


Arb.

[MrFoolish]

I'd say if people have concerns or worries about the strategy, then they should be free to express it on the HYP board. Indeed, it would be distinctly odd (and probably irresponsible) to disallow it. Otherwise newcomers might come along and think everything in the garden is rosy, when there are in fact a few weeds.

Provided these concerns are kept within their own threads, they can be read or ignored as each individual sees fit.

It's also worth pointing out that PYAD said people will run their HYPs in their own way. Now I don't know exactly what he meant by that, but it does suggest a certain degree of flexibility is to be expected.

[Darka]

Provided these concerns are kept within their own threads, they can be read or ignored as each individual sees fit.

The problem is that those concerns are never are kept to their own threads, they propagate throughout the practical board.

Often it's the same people bringing up the same arguments, over and over and over again - trying to point score over each other, it's tedious and is exactly the reason we've lost Gengulphus; one of the most interesting posters on this site.

regards,
Darka

[MrFoolish]

Often it's the same people bringing up the same arguments, over and over and over again - trying to point score over each other

That's discussion boards for you. It happens. It will always happen.

it's tedious and is exactly the reason we've lost Gengulphus; one of the most interesting posters on this site.
Darka

Well Gengulphus gave numerous reasons. You shouldn't misrepresent what he said.

IMHO, people need to be somewhat tolerant and recognise they can't always micromanage things.

I'd also add that tjh is very well respected on the HYP board and he goes somewhat off-piste from the PYAD method. We'd be worse off without it.

[Breelander]

As various people have noted, I stopped posting on TLF around the end of November last year. I am breaking my silence now to explain why...

So glad to hear you are keeping well. I agree with all you comments but still post on TLF as there are other areas I'm interested in (gardening, computers, etc.). For HYP-P I'm more of a lurker these days, but will still post there occasionally if I feel I have something worth contributing.

[csearle]

I'd say if people have concerns or worries about the strategy, then they should be free to express it on the HYP board.

No. That board is designed for the converted and only concerned with the practical matters involved with running their HYPs. Read the guidelines. If you want to discuss the validity of the strategy set them you must do it elsewhere.

Chris

[Arborbridge]

I'd say if people have concerns or worries about the strategy, then they should be free to express it on the HYP board. Indeed, it would be distinctly odd (and probably irresponsible) to disallow it. Otherwise newcomers might come along and think everything in the garden is rosy, when there are in fact a few weeds.

Provided these concerns are kept within their own threads, they can be read or ignored as each individual sees fit.

It's also worth pointing out that PYAD said people will run their HYPs in their own way. Now I don't know exactly what he meant by that, but it does suggest a certain degree of flexibility is to be expected.

This illustrates the problem that Gengulphus was referring to. He has articulated a very clear position on the problem with the board and how people do not adhere to the guidelines and you respond by suggesting that it's OK to flout the guidelines!

It's exactly this kind of picky argumentative post which has undermined the HYP-P board, and it only takes two or three people with this attitude to ruin the scene for the dedicated HYPers unles properly moderated.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

As various people have noted, I stopped posting on TLF around the end of November last year. I am breaking my silence now to explain why...

So glad to hear you are keeping well. I agree with all you comments but still post on TLF as there are other areas I'm interested in (gardening, computers, etc.). For HYP-P I'm more of a lurker these days, but will still post there occasionally if I feel I have something worth contributing.

And I am really pleased when you do. A breath of fresh air from a genuine HYPer.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

That's discussion boards for you. It happens. It will always happen.

No, no, no. The HYP-P board is totally not for that kind of discussion. What's so difficult about understanding that it is NOT the place to nitpick about HYP or discuss whether HYP is a good thing or not, or keep trying to subtly alter what is included in a HYP?

If you want to run a strategy which isn't HYP, or isn't quite HYP, then don't undermine the HYP-P board -just post on other boards of which there are plenty.

Arb.

[MrFoolish]

This illustrates the problem that Gengulphus was referring to. He has articulated a very clear position on the problem with the board and how people do not adhere to the guidelines and you respond by suggesting that it's OK to flout the guidelines!
Arb.

I was under the impression one of the purposes of this Biscuit Bar is for discussing the guidelines. You don't want them discussed on the HYP board... you've complained about such discussions on the Strategy board... would you rather they weren't discussed here either?

[Arborbridge]

It's also worth pointing out that PYAD said people will run their HYPs in their own way. Now I don't know exactly what he meant by that, but it does suggest a certain degree of flexibility is to be expected.

You don't know exactly what he means, but that doesn't give anyone permission to use it to make forays into areas which he almost certainly does not mean!
And there is "a certain degree of flexibility" and always has been - but it is only a "certain degree" - it isn't for individuals to push the boundaries ever further until we end up with something which is most certain not HYP.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

This illustrates the problem that Gengulphus was referring to. He has articulated a very clear position on the problem with the board and how people do not adhere to the guidelines and you respond by suggesting that it's OK to flout the guidelines!
Arb.

I was under the impression one of the purposes of this Biscuit Bar is for discussing the guidelines. You don't want them discussed on the HYP board... you've complained about such discussions on the Strategy board... would you rather they weren't discussed here either?

I beg your pardon. I thought you were referring to discussions on the HYP-P board - that seemed to be the inference, but I must have misread your post.

Arb.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

I'd say if people have concerns or worries about the strategy, then they should be free to express it on the HYP board.

No. That board is designed for the converted and only concerned with the practical matters involved with running their HYPs. Read the guidelines. If you want to discuss the validity of the strategy set them you must do it elsewhere.

Chris

Before Covid 19 I was travelling 100 miles each way to an office in Derby. The journey should take 1hr 50 mins. Invariably it took 2hrs 30 mins. Some of the delay was caused by selfish drivers. You know the ones that cut everyone up as they swerve over four lanes at the last minute to get to the off ramp. There's an argument to say that they should behave better and eventually the law will catch up with them. It doesn't. If it did my journey time would have reduced.

There will always be those drivers who think the rules don't apply to them.

There are people who jump queues and will often become physically abusive if challenged.

There will always be those who "opt out". And the same is true of posting forums.

I have a choice about my journey. Essentially I could find another job closer to home and remove the issue that way. But I am enjoying my new role. So I've taken to arriving at work a little later and leaving a little earlier. I also don't let other drivers who are "opting out" change my emotional focus. It works. I don't get enraged with them anymore. And for the most that's because I have removed something that I have control over. That's my sense of entitlement. That sense that tells me if I drive well I am entitled to expect others to do the same. They never will though.

My misplaced sense of entitlement was the root cause of my anger with these "opt out" drivers. There was a period when I fist started my journey where I passed an accident one way for about 2 months. It literally was carnage. I couldn't believe that people were driving so recklessly that these accidents were happening daily. It seemed to peak and then slowly but surely it calmed down.

We all have our choices to make. My choice has been to reflect upon my own sense of entitlement and regulate that efficiently enough to allow me to carry on with what I enjoy.

There are "things" I can control. There are "things" I can influence. And there are "things I cannot control or influence", except to say I can always refer to my own sense, be it one of entitlement or indeed something else and control and influence that accordingly.

AiY"t"n'U

[Alaric]

That board is designed for the converted

Who sometimes give the impression that they despise those who are agnostic or atheist about several of the articles of HYP faith.