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My absence

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
IanTHughes
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Re: My absence

#310669

Postby IanTHughes » May 21st, 2020, 2:19 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:
Alaric wrote:How about the attacks being against the notion that an investment strategy should have tablets of stone describing relatively arbitrary guidelines for what was included and what wasn't and what comes across as a near religious belief with defenders of the faith needed against outsiders. .


Check your most active forum in your profile.

Wow - how is that possible PD?

How can a poster, who fundamentally doesn't agree with the investment process set out within the HYP Practical guidelines, possess a posting history where his 'Most active forum' statistic shows that HYP Practical is where he's posted the majority of his messages?

Image

Why would someone choose to continually and habitually post on a HYP Practical board with which they've got no fundamental involvement, when one of the guidelines of that board is that only posts related to the practical running of HYP's should be posted there?


Maybe a slow learner?


Ian

Lootman
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Re: My absence

#310674

Postby Lootman » May 21st, 2020, 2:29 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:There's a facility within TLF to mark others up as "foe". Whilst I think that's an exaggerated use of the English language and would prefer to see it as "Don't see posts from this poster" it does allow a degree of self moderation. And I would suggest that we all have to think about this as being the first place that moderation begins. With us. We back away from tit-tat opinion posts. We refrain from "scoring points". And if we find particular posters have "radically" different opinions to ours then we exercise our right not to see their posts.

I haven't used the "foe" feature as no Lemon here has annoyed me enough to do that. And even those Lemons who irk me do also sometimes have things to say that I can learn from.

That said it does seem like a simple method of removing the kind of posts on a board that typically annoy you. Assuming it works the way you say, you quite simply don't see them. Of course segments of that post might be quoted by another so it is not 100% effective. But it surely is a simple antidote if Lemon XYZ consistently gets your goat.

The other approach is more cognitive. I think some people here are better than others at sifting out or disregarding tangential posts on a topic. I consider I can do a decent job of that but I understand that others might not be so comfortable doing that. That also comes back to what Itsallaguess was saying about not charging in every time you hear the cannons roar.

As for the guidelines for HYP-P, I can believe that the TMF rules were more comprehensive and rigorous, whilst the TLF rules are more loose and general. I think this reflects the fact that TLF is a more relaxed place generally. Moreover the combining of several TMF boards into a single TLF board, which happened a lot, invariably means that discussions on any given TLF board became broader. That also fits with the lighter moderation policy on TLF.

I am not sure that making TLF more like TMF in that regard is a helpful move, not least because of the extra burden on moderators. But there is also a question of the cultural fit. TLF has marked itself out as a different entity. That will invariably please some and displease others, as would of course any change to that.

Gengulphus
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Re: My absence

#310676

Postby Gengulphus » May 21st, 2020, 2:31 pm

tea42 wrote:From what little I have seen of your posts Gengulphus you have been a mine of valuable information and interpretation of complex financial subjects. As such, you have evidently been sorely missed with many folk concerned for your wellbeing. A lot of people havent believed in HYPs and our current situation with plunging share prices could point to why....the difficulty of timing the market. I gather thats part of what irked you? ...

No - and I'd better try to kill that idea off quick, before it becomes part of what I called "the 'folklore' of HYPs" in the post of mine that PinkDalek linked to! There's clear evidence for that in the dates of my posts (see search.php?author_id=52&sr=posts): I stopped posting on or shortly after 27 November last year, getting on for two months before the COVID-19-triggered plunges in share prices.

Thanks to you and everyone else who has welcomed me back! But as a note of caution, I've not yet decided whether I'm back permanently...

Gengulphus

GoSeigen
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Re: My absence

#310682

Postby GoSeigen » May 21st, 2020, 2:58 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:
Alaric wrote:
How about the attacks being against the notion that an investment strategy should have tablets of stone describing relatively arbitrary guidelines for what was included and what wasn't and what comes across as a near religious belief with defenders of the faith needed against outsiders. .


Check your most active forum in your profile.


Wow - how is that possible PD?

How can a poster, who fundamentally doesn't agree with the investment process set out within the HYP Practical guidelines, possess a posting history where his 'Most active forum' statistic shows that HYP Practical is where he's posted the majority of his messages?

Image

Why would someone choose to continually and habitually post on a HYP Practical board with which they've got no fundamental involvement, when one of the guidelines of that board is that only posts related to the practical running of HYP's should be posted there?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Similar situation on Gilts and Bonds board from time to time.
Most active topic:
Preference shares -- keeping it simple
(77 Posts / 1.89% of user’s posts)


GS

Gengulphus
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Re: My absence

#310683

Postby Gengulphus » May 21st, 2020, 2:59 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:Remember - It takes two to tango, and if you're one of them then I'm sorry, but you're very much *part* of this problem....

Like all adages, this is only correct in part. Let us remember where the dynamic comes from for this tango - one person (or group of ) of supplying the "needle" and the other group is resisting. What exactly do you expect them to do when the HYP board is under attack? Is it not reasonable to push back and point out that the trouble on HYP is being caused by the dynamic of those who would dilute it and infringe the guidelines?
If I and others just kept quiet and didn't "tango" as you put it, do you really think it would make any difference? Would the HYP objectors just be quiet and go away? I very much doubt it. ...

So do I - if all that happened was that you and others just kept quiet and didn't "tango". But if you and others didn't "tango" by either keeping quiet or reporting the "needling" post, and at least one of you chose to report it, the moderator who dealt with the report would be faced with a single problematic post with one person clearly responsible for the problem, which is a much easier situation to clean up than a massive argument involving dozens of posters...

I know it's natural to want to resist such attacks by posting a rebuttal - I've felt that temptation myself many times, and indeed succumbed to it rather too often... :-( But the natural way of resisting them is not the same as the most effective way of resisting them!

Gengulphus

Arborbridge
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Re: My absence

#310685

Postby Arborbridge » May 21st, 2020, 3:07 pm

Lootman wrote:As for the guidelines for HYP-P, I can believe that the TMF rules were more comprehensive and rigorous, whilst the TLF rules are more loose and general. I think this reflects the fact that TLF is a more relaxed place generally.


That's an interesting comment, for the HYP-P board in particular can hardly be described as more relaxed than that on TMF - at least not for six months or a year.

As I recall, you took part in some interesting debates on TMF - threads of over 100 posts - but they were all, or mostly, on HYP-S. This served the purpose of everyone being able to have a good work out without the sorts of tension which have arisen on the HYP-P on TLF. Some people disliked those super long threads, but they were all confined, as were criticisms of HYP itself, to the one board.

It was all about discipline on where to post. I ran foul of the difference between the two boards at first, but soon learnt after a couple of deletions and emails from the Mod explaining where I had transgressed. Or maybe we were just more inclined to play by the rules than people are now?

Anyhow, I my view, the loosening has lead to an increase in entropy as it often does.

Arb.

Arborbridge
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Re: My absence

#310686

Postby Arborbridge » May 21st, 2020, 3:12 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
I know it's natural to want to resist such attacks by posting a rebuttal - I've felt that temptation myself many times, and indeed succumbed to it rather too often... :-( But the natural way of resisting them is not the same as the most effective way of resisting them!

Gengulphus


Wise words, as Ian word say. Sometimes my passion gets the better of me...

And sometimes the offensive posts are cleverly couched as to be just the right side of being reportably OT. I doubt I've reported more than one or two posts for being OT - maybe I should do it more but it always seems a bit sneaky to me. If someone objects to what I say, I'd rather know about it, and vice versa. Otherwise it is going behind someone's back. Likewise I've never "blocked" anyone.

Arb.

Gengulphus
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Re: My absence

#310687

Postby Gengulphus » May 21st, 2020, 3:19 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:There's a facility within TLF to mark others up as "foe". Whilst I think that's an exaggerated use of the English language and would prefer to see it as "Don't see posts from this poster" it does allow a degree of self moderation. And I would suggest that we all have to think about this as being the first place that moderation begins. With us. We back away from tit-tat opinion posts. We refrain from "scoring points". And if we find particular posters have "radically" different opinions to ours then we exercise our right not to see their posts.

I haven't used TLF's "Foe" feature, but I have used TMF's more-or-less-equivalent "Ignore Poster" facility in the past. Unfortunately, it only stopped me seeing their posts directly - I still saw those posts when other people quoted them. And even if other people merely responded to them without quoting, what I saw of the discussion often became full of non sequiturs and so hard to follow. The outcome was that I realised that using "Ignore Poster" was causing me just as much aggravation as seeing their posts had, and so I gave up on using the facility... Which is why I haven't used TLF's "Foe" facility.

Gengulphus

PinkDalek
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Re: My absence

#310695

Postby PinkDalek » May 21st, 2020, 3:49 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:... where his 'Most active forum' statistic shows that HYP Practical is where he's posted the majority of his messages?


If I may and to be reasonable, the stats don't show the majority but a goodly number.

Wizard
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Re: My absence

#310696

Postby Wizard » May 21st, 2020, 3:51 pm

Having finished catching up on this thread I went over to HYP-P. There is currently a thread running named Life Insurers, but really it is about Legal & General. IMHO it is one of the best threads on HYP-P for some time as there is actually some substantive content to it. However, with this thread fresh in my mind two things occurred to me:
1. I wondered why it was on HYP-P and not the Company Share News board.
2. Based on what people have said elsewhere about their holdings I do not believe any of the comments on the thread were made by people who would say they hold an HYP, a high yield portfolio with some shares that could be part of an HYP yes, but not an HYP-P guidance compliant portfolio.

Whenever I think about it I do come to the conclusion that HYP-P should be a very quiet backwater with little activity, I can only conclude the reason it is not is down to two things; habit and the critical mass of people who read and comment on it.

I wonder what would happen if HYP-P was closed for a couple of months and people were forced to post elsewhere. When it was reopened would the HYP community get what they want as people would be used to posting all their other off topic stuff elsewhere?

Gengulphus
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Re: My absence

#310701

Postby Gengulphus » May 21st, 2020, 4:08 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:I know it's natural to want to resist such attacks by posting a rebuttal - I've felt that temptation myself many times, and indeed succumbed to it rather too often... :-( But the natural way of resisting them is not the same as the most effective way of resisting them!

Wise words, as Ian word say. Sometimes my passion gets the better of me...

Same here - that's basically why I've rather too often succumbed to the temptation!

Arborbridge wrote:And sometimes the offensive posts are cleverly couched as to be just the right side of being reportably OT. ...

Assuming that they're also not quite reportable for "playing the man rather than the ball" or other reasons, there is the option of cleverly 'playing it straight'. Their post is borderline, within the topic boundary but only just within it, so make your reply relevant to what they've said but considerably further inside the topic boundary. If they follow you, all well and good - you've succeeded in steering the thread more firmly on-topic; if they reply pulling in the opposite direction, they probably do stray off-topic and you report them for it. If they reply by saying that you've missed their point, agree that you may well have done - could they make their point more clearly so that you can understand what it is? Etc, etc, etc - basically, roleplay being someone who simply cannot imagine that they could be trying to talk about off-topic matters.

It's an option to be used with caution, though - too-long or too-frequent sparring of that type can annoy people...

Gengulphus

Gengulphus
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Re: My absence

#310704

Postby Gengulphus » May 21st, 2020, 4:13 pm

Wizard wrote:I wonder what would happen if HYP-P was closed for a couple of months and people were forced to post elsewhere. When it was reopened would the HYP community get what they want as people would be used to posting all their other off topic stuff elsewhere?

Well, we know what happened when a previous incarnation of HYP Practical was closed and people were forced to post elsewhere - and it took nothing like two months! ;-)

Gengulphus

Breelander
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Re: My absence

#310708

Postby Breelander » May 21st, 2020, 4:18 pm

Wizard wrote:Whenever I think about it I do come to the conclusion that HYP-P should be a very quiet backwater with little activity...


It was consistently one of the most active boards on TMF....

Board Name                        EPIC         Last         24 Hour Total  
High Yield - HYP Practical 24/4/15 07:45 39
Does Anybody Know? 24/4/15 06:23 36
Investment Strategies 24/4/15 07:12 25
Cars & Driving 24/4/15 07:36 18
Help with this Blasted Computer! 24/4/15 07:13 17
https://web.archive.org/web/20150424065 ... opwhat=brd

...and with a total of 36,671 posts has been the most active board here on TLF too. DAK comes in at 12,614.

dealtn
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Re: My absence

#310711

Postby dealtn » May 21st, 2020, 4:20 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
Wizard wrote:I wonder what would happen if HYP-P was closed for a couple of months and people were forced to post elsewhere. When it was reopened would the HYP community get what they want as people would be used to posting all their other off topic stuff elsewhere?

Well, we know what happened when a previous incarnation of HYP Practical was closed and people were forced to post elsewhere - and it took nothing like two months! ;-)

Gengulphus


Which was what? (genuine question)

G3lc
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Re: My absence

#310720

Postby G3lc » May 21st, 2020, 4:37 pm

As an overview I would suggest the HYP-P board is/was probably the most popular board - why break a good thing?

dealtn
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Re: My absence

#310724

Postby dealtn » May 21st, 2020, 4:49 pm

G3lc wrote:As an overview I would suggest the HYP-P board is/was probably the most popular board - why break a good thing?


I think some are suggesting it is already broken, hence this long thread.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: My absence

#310731

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » May 21st, 2020, 4:59 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:There's a facility within TLF to mark others up as "foe". Whilst I think that's an exaggerated use of the English language and would prefer to see it as "Don't see posts from this poster" it does allow a degree of self moderation. And I would suggest that we all have to think about this as being the first place that moderation begins. With us. We back away from tit-tat opinion posts. We refrain from "scoring points". And if we find particular posters have "radically" different opinions to ours then we exercise our right not to see their posts.

I haven't used TLF's "Foe" feature, but I have used TMF's more-or-less-equivalent "Ignore Poster" facility in the past. Unfortunately, it only stopped me seeing their posts directly - I still saw those posts when other people quoted them. And even if other people merely responded to them without quoting, what I saw of the discussion often became full of non sequiturs and so hard to follow. The outcome was that I realised that using "Ignore Poster" was causing me just as much aggravation as seeing their posts had, and so I gave up on using the facility... Which is why I haven't used TLF's "Foe" facility.

Gengulphus

Yes. I've noticed that too. It's effective for me as I scroll on fast and don't feel the need to stop and reflect. But we're all different :)

AiY"t"n'U

Arborbridge
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Re: My absence

#310733

Postby Arborbridge » May 21st, 2020, 5:01 pm

dealtn wrote:
G3lc wrote:As an overview I would suggest the HYP-P board is/was probably the most popular board - why break a good thing?


I think some are suggesting it is already broken, hence this long thread.


I for one, do not believe that at all.

Arb

Wizard
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Re: My absence

#310735

Postby Wizard » May 21st, 2020, 5:05 pm

Breelander wrote:
Wizard wrote:Whenever I think about it I do come to the conclusion that HYP-P should be a very quiet backwater with little activity...


It was consistently one of the most active boards on TMF....

Board Name                        EPIC         Last         24 Hour Total  
High Yield - HYP Practical 24/4/15 07:45 39
Does Anybody Know? 24/4/15 06:23 36
Investment Strategies 24/4/15 07:12 25
Cars & Driving 24/4/15 07:36 18
Help with this Blasted Computer! 24/4/15 07:13 17
https://web.archive.org/web/20150424065 ... opwhat=brd

...and with a total of 36,671 posts has been the most active board here on TLF too. DAK comes in at 12,614.

I can’t dispute the facts on that, but that was a while ago when presumably there would have been more to discuss in terms of bottoming our practical matters. Now nearly twenty years on from the original TMF articles is there as much of substance to discuss?

Also, how many of the regulars that posted then are active on HYP-P on TLF now? And have all those that don’t post been replaced by ‘new blood’? I think the answer to both is no. Who are the core posters there: Arborfield, IDPickering, TJH, Monabri, Dod, IanHHughes? Who have I missed?

Plus I think of as the core HYP-P participants seem to be pretty clear on what they think is and is not on topic for the board and that surely means a degree of certainty as to what HYP-P is intended to cover on TLF. Surely the sort of topics that would be core to HYP-P are:
What do people think about this new purchase / top-up candidate?
What do people think about selling out of / trimming this holding?
Here is a post reporting what I have done recently in my HYP?

Yes there may be other topics that crop up on occasion, maybe like:
Do people think my income reserve is sufficient?
But they will not be the bread and butter of HYP.

Also, and I hesitate to add this point as some will see it at an attempt at provocation, but one has to look beyond the volume of posts. If one takes out the arguments and off topic posts, the posts that just link to other boards and the posts with no substance which something like ‘I agree with what was said by another poster’, what does the volume of posts look like then?

Gengulphus
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Re: My absence

#310737

Postby Gengulphus » May 21st, 2020, 5:23 pm

dealtn wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:
Wizard wrote:I wonder what would happen if HYP-P was closed for a couple of months and people were forced to post elsewhere. When it was reopened would the HYP community get what they want as people would be used to posting all their other off topic stuff elsewhere?

Well, we know what happened when a previous incarnation of HYP Practical was closed and people were forced to post elsewhere - and it took nothing like two months! ;-)

Which was what? (genuine question)

They found an elsewhere to post, and the previous incarnation was not reopened. (genuine answer)

Edit: But I might add that also it's a rather tongue-in-cheek answer, though with a serious point underlying it...

Gengulphus
Last edited by Gengulphus on May 21st, 2020, 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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