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My absence

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
Arborbridge
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Re: My absence

#310991

Postby Arborbridge » May 22nd, 2020, 12:51 pm

Alaric wrote:
Arborbridge wrote: Maybe there is something and I've just missed it but when LMF started, the old cohort knew what a HYP was for, (high and increasing income with some chance of capital appreciation, would be my interpretation) so perhaps it didn't need mentioning?


But is it to increase wealth or to supply cash as an income? If it's the former it's just a specialist growth strategy.


Read Pyad: it's about the income, not the capital growth. Why are you asking?: you've been around long enough to know ;)

Arb.

Alaric
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Re: My absence

#310996

Postby Alaric » May 22nd, 2020, 12:58 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Read Pyad: it's about the income, not the capital growth. Why are you asking?: you've been around long enough to know ;)


If you don't need the income why treat it as a priority?

The rest of the world would evaluate the success of a strategy which reinvests income, not by the amount of income reinvested, but by the total wealth generated as a consequence. Is it any wonder that "HYPers" regard themselves as a misunderstood and besieged group?

As to reading pyad, I don't do religion.

Itsallaguess
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Re: My absence

#311002

Postby Itsallaguess » May 22nd, 2020, 1:07 pm

Alaric wrote:
If you don't need the income why treat it as a priority?


Why do you continue to concern yourself with other people's priorities?

Itsallaguess

moorfield
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Re: My absence

#311005

Postby moorfield » May 22nd, 2020, 1:11 pm

IanTHughes wrote:Those that post upon the “High Yield Portfolio (HYP) – Practical” board mostly fall into one of four groups

1) Prima Donnas

Prima Donnas do not actively reject the HYP Strategy, in fact they say little, if anything at all about it. They need an audience to listen to the buys and sales that they make for what is most likely a trading strategy. They never discuss the practicalities of running an HYP, how could they when they do not maintain an HYP. They crave the attention of people to see how clever they have been with their trading and of course for that reason want the “High Yield Portfolio – Practical” board to continue. Hence Prima Donnas

2) William Webbs

William Webbs do usually have some kind of income strategy and may even have an equity portfolio for the purpose of generating income. They do however reject the HYP Strategy in that they want to change the HYP strategy so that it matches the strategy that they do actually follow. Like William Webb they have happily joined a football club but, as soon as they are in, they bang on about changing the rules of the game. One would still be allowed to kick the ball but how about: adding 4 more players, allowing people to run with the ball in hand, changing the goal posts, changing the way points are scored? And of course, they want to change the name to Rugby Football, to be more inclusive you understand. They want to destroy HYP as a strategy, but they do want to keep the “High Yield Portfolio – Practical” board, but for their own strategy

3) Aryans

Aryans believe that HYP should be banned in favour of a proper strategy, one that measures success by Total Return, the correct way you understand! They of course routinely attack HYP as a strategy usually by attacking some aspect that they claim will inevitably lead to disaster. The fact that the “aspect” they attack is not part of the HYP Strategy is of no matter, not when they are engaged in what they see as the noble mission of freeing all investors from what they perceive to be an HYP scourge. They of course want the “High Yield Portfolio – Practical” board banned, or at least banished to an area where it should no longer infect other investors.

4) HYPers

HYPers, and I am of course one of this group, simply want to build and manage their income portfolios by using the HYP Strategy as laid out by its originator. They accept that HYP does not have rules but does come with strong recommendations. Further, they understand that the strategy requires each individual HYPer to put those recommendations into practice in his/her own way and make his/her own investment decisions. This in turn leads to an understanding that, although there will be overlap, each HYP will be unique, chosen by its owner and no-one else. They want the members of the other poster groups to be politely but firmly told to leave the HYP Strategy and HYPers alone. And of course, HYPers want the “High Yield Portfolio – Practical” board to be returned to its original purpose: the discussion of the practicalities of running an HYP.


Ian


That's rather good. If I may indulge myself and requote something I wrote on a Brexit theme ....

viewtopic.php?t=15223

moorfield wrote:This is the "Unilever Question" again. You will get different answers to this quandary, depending on which side chapel of the cathedral your readers choose to worship in. I'd suggest there are four, which can be framed, like our current politics, thus:

Remain
aka Buy and Hold. Self-explanatory. Outsource your trading decision to "the market" (cf. the ECJ).

Hard Exit
It's generally accepted (new) HYP buys must be above the FTSE 100 yield. If you're prepared to extend that argument to holds, then yields below the FTSE 100 should be sold.

Soft Exit

Use a different metric, such as yield relative to benchmark, eg. < 0.5x, or overall portfolio income relative to a target, to make the decision.

Bad Deal
aka Pickering. You like (or dislike) the "feel" or "smell" of SGE, and think you should be seen to be doing something, but aren't completely convincing (or unconvincing) anyone but yourself. Probably the best course of action is to do nothing.


Alaric
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Re: My absence

#311007

Postby Alaric » May 22nd, 2020, 1:14 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:Why do you continue to concern yourself with other people's priorities?


Why not answer the question posed? If HYP is the one true investment religion, it should have a defence to this really obvious question.

richfool
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Re: My absence

#311019

Postby richfool » May 22nd, 2020, 1:38 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
richfool wrote:As a postscript to my above post, I was too late to edit it.

For someone who wants to discuss IT's, Investment Coys, Property Coys, REIT's be they high yielding, or low yielding, or growth focussed, it becomes a confusing nightmare.

For example, - PHP (a property company) gets discussed under HYP Practical (!), but what about REIT's? They can't? If REIT's can be discussed, then what about IT's. Note that some IT's are not actually IT's but Investment companies. What about IT's investing in renewables?

Then some post about higher income IT's on the High Yielding Shares & Strategies board, but lower yielding IT's not allowed. Logic to me says IT's (regardless of yield) should be on the IT board. Or is that too simple and too logical!

It always puzzled me, on the old Motley Fool boards, that L'Universal would post annual reports of particular income focussed Investment Trusts on the board about "Income shares", rather than the board specifically set up for Investment Trusts. Is there something taboo about Investment Trusts, or are they considered to be low class by HYP'ers? :?

Yours frustrated.


Well, yes, I can see some of the problems. Luckily, I seem mostly to avoid such dilemmas, so perhaps I am blind to them. Where there's been a bordeline case, PHP was one recently, I just ask for advice and react accordingly. My instinct, as I've often written, is to keep my HYP as clean as possible - keep away from anything borderline: why put them in a HYP anyway? Many people have shares which are external to what they call their HYP, so I do not find it a problem. I haven't come across a problem with REITS since mine were conversions of normal trading companies, and they certainly aren't ITs as I understand them. The name was born to confuse!

I wonder if you might be making life complicated by overthinking it?

Arb.

I was trying to illustrate some of the dilemmas that arise when wanting to post or respond to a post.

To continue with PHP as an example, I recently wanted to respond to a post about PHP, in terms of its defensiveness and capital performance, but the post/thread was on a "HYP - Practical" board. The limitations of HYP Practical thus precluded me from doing so. To have started a new topic elsewhere would have lost the ongoing discussion that had already taken place.

A different example/scenario, I wanted to post about, and respond to posts about, investment trusts including making comparisons, but the threads had been posted on the "High Yield Shares & Strategies" board, because the OP focussed on (or had a fixation on) higher yielding shares and IT's. I wanted to include lower income and growthier IT's so was precluded from joining in/participating.

It seems to me that when making posts the priority starts with HYP - Practical, then, if it can't be justified there, works it's way down through HighYield Shares & Strategies", maybe because too many participants live and breathe HYP, and don't want to gravitate to the more appropriate and correctly names boards for specific types of investments.

Itsallaguess
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Re: My absence

#311022

Postby Itsallaguess » May 22nd, 2020, 1:43 pm

Alaric wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Why do you continue to concern yourself with other people's priorities?


Why not answer the question posed? If HYP is the one true investment religion, it should have a defence to this really obvious question.


Straw-men don't need 'defending' Alaric...

Not one single poster on this website has *ever* said that 'HYP is the one true investment religion' other than when you make the phrase up to form the basis of yet another attack on the income-strategy or the practitioners of it...

Itsallaguess

Alaric
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Re: My absence

#311027

Postby Alaric » May 22nd, 2020, 1:52 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:Not one single poster on this website has *ever* said that 'HYP is the one true investment religion'


Why then do they give the impression they believe this?

Back to the question though. If a growth investor, being one who puts money in rather than take it out, why be more interested in defining success by measuring the amounts being reinvested as opposed to the wealth accumulated?

CryptoPlankton
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Re: My absence

#311030

Postby CryptoPlankton » May 22nd, 2020, 1:57 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
Alaric wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Why do you continue to concern yourself with other people's priorities?


Why not answer the question posed? If HYP is the one true investment religion, it should have a defence to this really obvious question.


Straw-men don't need 'defending' Alaric...

Not one single poster on this website has *ever* said that 'HYP is the one true investment religion' other than when you make the phrase up to form the basis of yet another attack on the income-strategy or the practitioners of it...

Itsallaguess

Don't forget, IAAG, "it takes two to tango"... ;)

Itsallaguess
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Re: My absence

#311033

Postby Itsallaguess » May 22nd, 2020, 2:00 pm

CryptoPlankton wrote:
Don't forget, IAAG, "it takes two to tango"... ;)


Heh - well to be fair, it'll be radio silence with some people soon, so I'm trying to get through one final time...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Stonge
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Re: My absence

#311036

Postby Stonge » May 22nd, 2020, 2:02 pm

tikunetih wrote:...furthermore, what this site seems to excel at is Meta-Discussions, that is discussing the discussion of investing, as opposed to merely discussing investing itself.

Why?

Probably the overly formalised bureaucratised forum structure that means much of the focus becomes about where something should be filed and policing what can be discussed where, diverting finite mental energy from the actual subject of making money, which appears to be a secondary consideration.


Absolutely, the awful, overly complex board structure detrimentally influences and restricts the discussions on TLF.

IanTHughes
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Re: My absence

#311037

Postby IanTHughes » May 22nd, 2020, 2:02 pm

CryptoPlankton wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Alaric wrote:Why not answer the question posed? If HYP is the one true investment religion, it should have a defence to this really obvious question.


Straw-men don't need 'defending' Alaric...

Not one single poster on this website has *ever* said that 'HYP is the one true investment religion' other than when you make the phrase up to form the basis of yet another attack on the income-strategy or the practitioners of it...

Don't forget, IAAG, "it takes two to tango"... ;)

viewtopic.php?p=310906#p310906
3) Aryans

Aryans believe that HYP should be banned in favour of a proper strategy, one that measures success by Total Return, the correct way you understand! They of course routinely attack HYP as a strategy usually by attacking some aspect that they claim will inevitably lead to disaster. The fact that the “aspect” they attack is not part of the HYP Strategy is of no matter, not when they are engaged in what they see as the noble mission of freeing all investors from what they perceive to be an HYP scourge. They of course want the “High Yield Portfolio – Practical” board banned, or at least banished to an area where it should no longer infect other investors.


Maybe the name should be: Aryan Trolls!


Ian

Stonge
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Re: My absence

#311041

Postby Stonge » May 22nd, 2020, 2:05 pm

Alaric wrote: If HYP is the one true investment religion, it should have a defence to this really obvious question.


Why is this type of post tolerated? Because PYAD HYP is not really respected. If it was, it would be given its own gated board.

Itsallaguess
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Re: My absence

#311042

Postby Itsallaguess » May 22nd, 2020, 2:07 pm

Alaric wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Not one single poster on this website has *ever* said that 'HYP is the one true investment religion'


Back to the question though.

If a growth investor, being one who puts money in rather than take it out, why be more interested in defining success by measuring the amounts being reinvested as opposed to the wealth accumulated?


Because 'success' is sometimes not measured by only using a single metric Alaric...

You might wish to measure the 'success' of an investment-strategy by the single metric of 'accumulated wealth'.

That is, of course, your right to do so, as it is anyone's...

Me though?

I want, if you would be so kind as to allow me, to be able to perhaps *give up* some level of 'accumulated wealth', if by doing so I can still accumulate *enough wealth* in a way that I enjoy, understand, and am able to continue processing in a simple, and mostly 'hands off' way over many years...

Please read that again Alaric -

NOT ALL INVESTORS PLACE THEIR HIGHEST PRIORITIES ON SOLELY ATTAINING THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF ACCUMULATED WEALTH

SOME INVESTORS MIGHT BE WILLING TO GIVE UP *SOME LEVEL* OF ACCUMULATED WEALTH IF BY DOING SO THEY ACHIEVE OTHER AIMS IN THEIR INVESTMENT STRATEGIES


Your repeated refusal to accept that one simple fact seems to be at the heart of your continued frustration with the ideas and approaches of some other investors on this website.

Again though - why do you continue to concern yourself with other people's priorities?

Itsallaguess

Alaric
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Re: My absence

#311044

Postby Alaric » May 22nd, 2020, 2:12 pm

Stonge wrote: Because PYAD HYP is not really respected.


You don't need to look very far to see that it's become a cult complete with its own sacred texts, even if it's not always clear what they are saying. Its adherents turn on critics and outsiders as evidenced by this thread.

Arborbridge
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Re: My absence

#311046

Postby Arborbridge » May 22nd, 2020, 2:15 pm

Alaric wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Read Pyad: it's about the income, not the capital growth. Why are you asking?: you've been around long enough to know ;)


If you don't need the income why treat it as a priority?

The rest of the world would evaluate the success of a strategy which reinvests income, not by the amount of income reinvested, but by the total wealth generated as a consequence. Is it any wonder that "HYPers" regard themselves as a misunderstood and besieged group?

As to reading pyad, I don't do religion.


You asked a question about HYP: I gave you the answer.

It's up to you what you do with it. I know your obsession with TR, which is fair enough, but there's no debate to be had here that already hasn't be had. I'll follow my path: you follow yours.

Arb.

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Re: My absence

#311049

Postby Lootman » May 22nd, 2020, 2:20 pm

tikunetih wrote:Something I've observed on various forums over the years, both financial and on-financial, is the example of the seemingly thin-skinned, popular contributor who periodically flounces off because some aspect of the forum isn't to their liking only to return later when they miss the positive feedback they used to get from those who valued their posts...

In my view, forums that work well and avoid becoming navel-gazing echo chambers involve some - not a lot, but some - rough and tumble with people able to air their differing views; not quite like a pub, but nor the tightly controlled formal environment that some might prefer.

To benefit from this I think forum posters should leave their egos by the door (investors should most certainly do this too), not wish to overly control things and embrace a little chaos. Occasional nuggets of valuable stuff periodically emerge from that chaos, and closing yourself off to it can be to your detriment.

If instead posters wish to tightly control the environment in which they write, then my advice would be to become a publisher: that is, write a blog where (a) you fully control the published content and (b) you decide whether comments can be posted at all and/or where you can personally filter those comments that do get shown.

Fighting talk!

To be fair to Gengulphus he has been consistent over the years about this. "Flouncy" is not a word I would ascribe to him. I can recall him on TMF stating a couple of times or more that he might quit. And again in the embryonic days of TLF when we were all discussing what this place should look like.

He has a very thorough and detailed approach to topics which is valued. He holds himself to a high standard and expects those same standards from others. My sense is that he flourishes best in systems that are structured, ordered and rule-bound. He has often argued, both on TMF and TLF, for more rigorous moderation, and so his appeal for that here is not a recent revelation but rather a long-term thematic one.

But as you say, there is always a measure of chaos and anarchy here, as in real life. People differ in how they deal with that. Some embrace it; for others it is uncomfortable.

Of course there is more to his lament than just temperament. HYP-P has been a volatile place for as long as anyone can recall, which causes frustration for purists and pragmatists alike. Nobody there seems happy, although some might argue that is a sign of a decent compromise. That said this thread has become a microcosm of the very issue itself, with a wide variety of opinions on whether and what to change.

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Re: My absence

#311050

Postby Stonge » May 22nd, 2020, 2:20 pm

Alaric wrote:
Stonge wrote: Because PYAD HYP is not really respected.


You don't need to look very far to see that it's become a cult complete with its own sacred texts, even if it's not always clear what they are saying. Its adherents turn on critics and outsiders as evidenced by this thread.


Why do you, or anyone else, think that you have a right to say that? What business is it of yours if you are not a practising PYAD HYPer? Why should practising PYAD HYPers have to put up with you posting on their board, i.e. HYP Practical?

To be clear, I am not a PYAD HYPer and never will be. I commented on this thread because I think this thread illustrates the failure of TLF to properly support PYAD HYPers by giving them their own gated board where they can discuss the issues that they are interested in without harassment from those who, it is clear, will never stop bothering them - and in the process clogging up the active topics list for the rest of us.

Arborbridge
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Re: My absence

#311057

Postby Arborbridge » May 22nd, 2020, 2:26 pm

Alaric wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:Why do you continue to concern yourself with other people's priorities?


Why not answer the question posed? If HYP is the one true investment religion, it should have a defence to this really obvious question.


Who said it's the one true investment religion? Not I, not Itsallaguess, and no one I'm aware of on the HYP-P board.
These are fantasies of your own making, and by doing so, you have created your own windmills to tilt at. It seems to me that you enthusiasm for TR - which I have long acknowledged has its place - has become almost an obsession which makes you resent and attack anyone who has a different way. Whether or not the rest of the world prefers TR is irrelevant: the point is why are you unable to live and let live?
I have chosen a particular route for my pension: you've chosen yours. I have at no time called into question how you run your investment life, but you are constantly needling and undermining mine. Why do you do this? Why can you not do what I do, which is to respect the other fellow's path. Instead of which you carry on this constant guerilla warfare. Explain why: what is your motive, your agenda?


Arb.

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Re: My absence

#311061

Postby Arborbridge » May 22nd, 2020, 2:31 pm

Alaric wrote:
Stonge wrote: Because PYAD HYP is not really respected.


You don't need to look very far to see that it's become a cult complete with its own sacred texts, even if it's not always clear what they are saying. Its adherents turn on critics and outsiders as evidenced by this thread.


I beg your pardon? Who is attacking who here? You just invent this stuff to play games. It's not as though all other styles of investment does not have what you would terms its own sacred texts. The obsession and hatred you have against HYP and HYPers is rather extraordinary: I fact, to turn the conversation round, I would say that you have invested your own religion with its own myths about HYP and HYPers.

This part of the thread has served rather to show your own warped view of HYP and HYPers in a better light.

Arb.


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