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TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
Clariman
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376974

Postby Clariman » January 14th, 2021, 11:14 am

johnhemming wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote: But it is a fact that some posters are "more equal" than others when posting on this forum. I won't mention names but I am sure you have noticed too. On the odd occasion, I have reported insulting posts and had them removed, but more often those posters with a higher privilege do seem to be able to say things beyond anything I have posted and had deleted. It's life, I suppose. I try not to rise to the bait anymore. The mods by and large do a good job here. I suppose all forums have some posters who are cut more slack than others.


I do have some agreement with this, but don't want to get involved in any detailed analysis.


RVF and Johnhemming. I take these allegations very seriously. If you think some users are being treated differently to others, please PM me so that I can investigate. You are correct not to name names in a public place here, but I will need to the details privately, to look into your allegations. Can you also message me individually rather than copying each other so that I can review them independently.

Many thanks
Clariman

johnhemming
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376980

Postby johnhemming » January 14th, 2021, 11:17 am

Clariman wrote:If you think some users are being treated differently to others, please PM me so that I can investigate.

I don't want to get involved in any detailed analysis.

I think it is almost certainly sufficient that the assertion is made. That enables people to consider whether their approach is what they would consider reasonable in all the circumstances.

chas49
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377105

Postby chas49 » January 14th, 2021, 2:36 pm

johnhemming wrote:I think my main point is that there should be some willingness from moderators to take action to deal with abusive or defamatory comments when they appear rather than necessarily to await complaints. I have noticed some real concentration on certain points such as posting links to other sites and the technical question as to what is and what is not HYP. However, when it comes to posters being abusive that does not have the same attention.


Speaking as a moderator (but not on behalf of all mods!), I would point out that the moderators on this site are a small group of volunteers who don't spend all day scrutinising posts. I personally only look at topics that attract my attention or interest for some reason. Or because they are reported. In terms of proactive moderation (for example, moving a topic to a different board), I'm only likely to do that if I'm reading the topic for some other reason.

I didn't come to this topic to check it was in the right board, I read it because the title seemed interesting. Once I read it, I decided it wasn't on topic for the original board so I moved it.

Obviously that's an example of proactive moderation which isn't of the type you are hoping for - but it is (for me anyway) an illustration of how I (and I imagine other mods) work on this site.

So - while I understand your desire for a more proactive moderation style in relation to certain types of activity, I hope this gives some context as to why it isn't currently how we work, and perhaps (strictly IMHO) why it may not be introduced here.

scrumpyjack
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377114

Postby scrumpyjack » January 14th, 2021, 2:49 pm

I would certainly never intend to give offence to anyone and very much hope I have not done so. But I can imagine that someone with diametrically opposite views to a poster could take offence where none was intended or, objectively (if that is possible) given. So one does have to be careful also not to treat a post as abusive or offensive simply because you strongly hold an opposite opinion.

Perhaps some sort of Red Flag system might be possible, so a poster could indicate that he/she is offended by a certain post and the moderators could consider whether action is needed without identifying the injured party?

We all need to try and play the ball not the man, as they say, and couch our arguments politely! Though if I was having an exchange with Mr Trump at present I might find it hard to be polite!

johnhemming
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377117

Postby johnhemming » January 14th, 2021, 2:56 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:But I can imagine that someone with diametrically opposite views to a poster could take offence where none was intended or, objectively (if that is possible) given. So one does have to be careful also not to treat a post as abusive or offensive simply because you strongly hold an opposite opinion.


I think it was worth raising the issue in this manner. This sort of thing is an issue wherever matters are debated. I accept, for example, that at times I will be a bit abrupt or blunt, but I think insulting people and making abusive comments is relatively easy to identify and hence easy to draw a line on.

Clariman
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377125

Postby Clariman » January 14th, 2021, 3:08 pm

The key principle is .....

Play the ball, not the man or woman

... and we should all be fine

dspp
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377142

Postby dspp » January 14th, 2021, 3:26 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:I would certainly never intend to give offence to anyone and very much hope I have not done so. But I can imagine that someone with diametrically opposite views to a poster could take offence where none was intended or, objectively (if that is possible) given. So one does have to be careful also not to treat a post as abusive or offensive simply because you strongly hold an opposite opinion.

Perhaps some sort of Red Flag system might be possible, so a poster could indicate that he/she is offended by a certain post and the moderators could consider whether action is needed without identifying the injured party?

We all need to try and play the ball not the man, as they say, and couch our arguments politely! Though if I was having an exchange with Mr Trump at present I might find it hard to be polite!


Just use the alert button (!) and the relevant Mods will deal with it. Ideally explain what is the issue as we are not mindreaders. regards, dspp

Lootman
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377213

Postby Lootman » January 14th, 2021, 5:30 pm

chas49 wrote:
johnhemming wrote:I think my main point is that there should be some willingness from moderators to take action to deal with abusive or defamatory comments when they appear rather than necessarily to await complaints. I have noticed some real concentration on certain points such as posting links to other sites and the technical question as to what is and what is not HYP. However, when it comes to posters being abusive that does not have the same attention.


Speaking as a moderator (but not on behalf of all mods!), I would point out that the moderators on this site are a small group of volunteers who don't spend all day scrutinising posts. I personally only look at topics that attract my attention or interest for some reason. Or because they are reported. In terms of proactive moderation (for example, moving a topic to a different board), I'm only likely to do that if I'm reading the topic for some other reason.

I didn't come to this topic to check it was in the right board, I read it because the title seemed interesting. Once I read it, I decided it wasn't on topic for the original board so I moved it.

Obviously that's an example of proactive moderation which isn't of the type you are hoping for - but it is (for me anyway) an illustration of how I (and I imagine other mods) work on this site.

So - while I understand your desire for a more proactive moderation style in relation to certain types of activity, I hope this gives some context as to why it isn't currently how we work, and perhaps (strictly IMHO) why it may not be introduced here.

There is another problem too. If moderators become more aggressive about shutting down (particularly political) discussions then Lemons may feel more tempted to report other posts and posters mischievously. So we might see someone who realises that they are losing a debate try a "hail mary" reporting of his adversary in the hope that will work where his arguments could not.

I saw that happen on TMF from time to time, where the moderators were more literal and strict than here. I hope that doesn't happen. I think particularly with politics and religion, and sometimes sports, it is inherent that there are stronger emotions involved. But short of outright hate speech, aren't we all big boys and girls here?

Clariman
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377215

Postby Clariman » January 14th, 2021, 5:32 pm

Lootman wrote:There is another problem too. If moderators become more aggressive about shutting down (particularly political) discussions then Lemons may feel more tempted to report other posts and posters mischievously. So we might see someone who realises that they are losing a debate try a "hail mary" reporting of his adversary in the hope that will work where his arguments could not.

I think that does happen from time to time and can take a while to unpick. However, play the ball not the man/woman and don't take sensible argument personally.

Mike4
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377238

Postby Mike4 » January 14th, 2021, 6:40 pm

There is a further point Ive not seen expressed in this thread. For someone to 'be offended' requires their permission. To 'be offensive' requires the willingness of the other party to 'get offended'. This forum is probably the most gentle, well moderated I've ever taken part in and (deleted posts apart) I've never seen anything posted here that is truly offensive (by my own standards) and I've reported a fair few offensive posts on other forums only to be told to grow a thicker skin.

By way of illustration Ive seen the OP take umbrage at a post which I thought was perfectly fine. It contradicted a point he had made in quite a fairly robust manner and was by a poster he does not seem to like, but the post itself certainly did not strike me as rule-breaking in any way as it was commenting on the content of the post, not the poster. OP could have just told the other poster to shove it (or ignored it) but instead he chose to respond by stating in the thread he found it offensive, which is his prerogative but hardly on topic - reporting it would have been a better response. But it leads me to think the OP must have led a pretty sheltered internet life, so mild it was it compared to stuff I've seen on other forums and left to stand following complaints.

Moderator Message:
This post has been reported, but not by user Johnhemming. In the view of this moderator, it is in order. In addition, user Johnhemming himself has not complained about it, several hours after it was posted. More to the point, it is difficult to characterise it as defamatory, which is the nub of user Johnhemming's complaint. --MDW1954

csearle
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377242

Postby csearle » January 14th, 2021, 6:56 pm

johnhemming wrote:I think my main point is that there should be some willingness from moderators to take action to deal with abusive or defamatory comments when they appear rather than necessarily to await complaints.
Well to be fair if you haven't bothered to report what you find abusive or defamatory then what can you expect? We are not mind-readers. As has been pointed out we do not spend our time reading every post made on this site. Even if we did, one person's abuse is another person's banter. Help us to help you by simply reporting any post that you feel contravenes the site's rules and we'll take a look and maybe, if we agree, do something about it.

Thanks,
Chris

Arborbridge
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377247

Postby Arborbridge » January 14th, 2021, 7:31 pm

Mike4 wrote:There is a further point Ive not seen expressed in this thread. For someone to 'be offended' requires their permission. To 'be offensive' requires the willingness of the other party to 'get offended'. This forum is probably the most gentle, well moderated I've ever taken part in and (deleted posts apart) I've never seen anything posted here that is truly offensive (by my own standards) and I've reported a fair few offensive posts on other forums only to be told to grow a thicker skin.

By way of illustration Ive seen the OP take umbrage at a post which I thought was perfectly fine. It contradicted a point he had made in quite a fairly robust manner and was by a poster he does not seem to like, but the post itself certainly did not strike me as rule-breaking in any way as it was commenting on the content of the post, not the poster. OP could have just told the other poster to shove it (or ignored it) but instead he chose to respond by stating in the thread he found it offensive, which is his prerogative but hardly on topic - reporting it would have been a better response. But it leads me to think the OP must have led a pretty sheltered internet life, so mild it was it compared to stuff I've seen on other forums and left to stand following complaints.


I'd second that. I haven't followed all the various posts, but I've not noticed anything untoward or which I could have taken offence to. Certainly, anything offensive would have warranted a complaint and deletion.

Arb.

Lootman
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377255

Postby Lootman » January 14th, 2021, 8:00 pm

Clariman wrote:
johnhemming wrote:b) Does the board have sufficient information about people posting to have a defence under S5 DA 2013.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/20 ... /5/enacted

Ref the legislation, it would perhaps be more appropriate for Stooz to respond as the site is now a Ltd company of which Stooz is the sole director. However, I think we have that covered and I know of one instance where we have provided details to a complainant.

Given how easy it is so sign up to TLF, I would have thought that the "details" of a Lemon that you could provide to a complainant would be fairly sparse.

Some sites require a phone number to sign up so at least that is something. But other than that all you really know about us is an email address, one or more IP addresses (for as much use as that is these days) and anything that that individual may have chosen to disclose in their posts.

I have no idea what that referenced legislation demands of an entity like yours. But I do suspect that if Lemons were required to actually identify themselves and lose their anonymity here, then the population might dwindle significantly. Not because I or others fear any actions of the kind that John has apparently initiated elsewhere. But simply that anonymity is key to any online presence in my view.

For the record I have seen nothing that John has posted that warrants any hostility. I have noticed a few souls who appear to be unduly offended by his interesting views on the virus which, in truth, I have some sympathies for. So I think he has been treated a bit shoddily by a small number.

XFool
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377577

Postby XFool » January 15th, 2021, 5:49 pm

Arborbridge wrote:I am sorry to hear that you feel this abusive or defammatory behaviour. The problem with your putting a general comment like this is that many of us will be wondering whether we are personally at fault,. Those persons do not know whether you are referring to them, or someone else.
I for one would prefer to know, to be directly informed, that I have given offence, whether to you or anyone else. My purpose on TLF is not to make people's lives unhappy, but on the other I also know that I am sometimes guilty of being robust in my language. Some posters seem to relish a robust exchange, and others certainly do not - we can learnt from experience who is in which category.

Agree. Obviously.

richlist
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377608

Postby richlist » January 15th, 2021, 7:23 pm

I'm always surprised when anyone posts the word obviously......because often it isn't obvious.

If you agree, and you think its obvious that you agree, why do you need to tell us that you agree ?

XFool
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377627

Postby XFool » January 15th, 2021, 8:22 pm

...It's called emphasis.

emphasis
noun [ C or U ]
UK /ˈem.fə.sɪs/ US /ˈem.fə.sɪs/
plural emphases UK/ˈem.fə.siːz/ US/ˈem.fə.siːz/

B2
the particular importance or attention that is given to something:
I think we should put as much emphasis on preventing disease as we do on curing it.
Schools here put/place/lay great emphasis on written work and grammar.

Clariman
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#377818

Postby Clariman » January 16th, 2021, 3:17 pm

I think this topic has run its useful course. I appreciate that the OP raised it on the quieter Room 101 to bring things to the attention of the Site Owners and Admins. This has been achieved. However, it is worth restating important rules and recommendations for all.

  • Defamatory posts are absolutely forbidden (see https://lemonfool.co.uk/app.php/rules)
  • As a guideline, always play the ball, not the man/woman.
  • Please report any defamatory posts, whether you think they are against you or others. The Moderators will then handle it.
  • If you are unhappy with the Moderation response, contact the Moderator involved, if you know who it is.
  • If you remain unhappy, contact one of the Admins (Stooz, Clariman, Redsturgeon) or post in Room 101
  • Use the Ignore button if you wish
  • Anything really serious you need to report, then by all means go directly to Stooz, copying me

All the best
Clariman


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