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Retirement Investing board question

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
AJC5001
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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425246

Postby AJC5001 » July 6th, 2021, 2:06 pm

Gilgongo wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:As I see it, the proposal would be to have two boards, Investing prior to retirement and Investing when retired.


Well, it would be two "boards" in effect, but in practice it would be one board for people who have built their retirement investments and are now retired and wish to discuss the issues relating that situation. And all the other boards that already exist for amassing the aforesaid assets (whether for retirement or not). So I might choose a HYP strategy for my retirement accumulation and so frequent that board until I hit the retirement button, while you might choose a different method and read the mechanical, property, trading, passive, etc. boards until you do the same flip.


Given that the HYP strategy is supposed to provide an income in retirement, why would anybody need to stop frequenting that board? Same applies to the other boards mentioned.
The only difference to a HYP portfolio when you "hit the retirement button" is to switch from reinvesting the dividends to withdrawing some instead. :?

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csearle
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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425257

Postby csearle » July 6th, 2021, 3:16 pm

AJC5001 wrote:
Gilgongo wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:As I see it, the proposal would be to have two boards, Investing prior to retirement and Investing when retired.


Well, it would be two "boards" in effect, but in practice it would be one board for people who have built their retirement investments and are now retired and wish to discuss the issues relating that situation. And all the other boards that already exist for amassing the aforesaid assets (whether for retirement or not). So I might choose a HYP strategy for my retirement accumulation and so frequent that board until I hit the retirement button, while you might choose a different method and read the mechanical, property, trading, passive, etc. boards until you do the same flip.


Given that the HYP strategy is supposed to provide an income in retirement, why would anybody need to stop frequenting that board? Same applies to the other boards mentioned.
The only difference to a HYP portfolio when you "hit the retirement button" is to switch from reinvesting the dividends to withdrawing some instead. :?
That is fine for HYP, yes, but other investing styles might not have such an easy way of swapping between building and taking income. They may need to switch strategies to provide that income in retirement. They might benefit from a board to focus on that?

Chris

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425265

Postby vrdiver » July 6th, 2021, 4:15 pm

Personally, I'd welcome a "decumulation" board, whatever its title or acronym...
There is a definite change of mindset when switching from saving for retirement into drawing on those funds, or at least there was for me!

A decumulation board would feel like a safe place to discuss safety factors, both financial and mental, as well as how to simplify strategies, switch in a controlled way, manage lumpy income, whether it's a good idea to front load expenditure whilst still able to get out and about, and of course the day to day investment decisions around looking after a pot of money being used instead of an annuity or defined pension

VRD

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425302

Postby Gilgongo » July 6th, 2021, 6:37 pm

AJC5001 wrote:Given that the HYP strategy is supposed to provide an income in retirement, why would anybody need to stop frequenting that board?


Some misunderstanding here. They wouldn't stop frequenting that board. That my point. We don't need another accumulation board, and HYP is not the only method of getting ready for retirement.

EDIT: Sorry, do you mean that the style of investing is identical before and after retirement when it comes to HYP? That's not my undertanding of it.

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425304

Postby Gilgongo » July 6th, 2021, 6:44 pm

vrdiver wrote:Personally, I'd welcome a "decumulation" board, whatever its title or acronym...
There is a definite change of mindset when switching from saving for retirement into drawing on those funds, or at least there was for me!


Yes, to which I'd add it's currently hard to work out from comments in some discussions whether the person is coming at it from a pre or post-retirement standpoint unless they prefix very post with, "I am currently living off my investments".

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425307

Postby bluedonkey » July 6th, 2021, 6:54 pm

Investing Whilst Retired.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425313

Postby ursaminortaur » July 6th, 2021, 7:03 pm

Gilgongo wrote:I'm not in favour of splitting boards, so this isn't a call for that. but might the Retirement Investing board benefit from some "guidence" for people to talk about decumulation as opposed to accumuation? The accumulation side of things is more than catered for on other boards (HYP, Investment Strategies and others), while the business of getting income from investments after retirement is somwhat scatterd about (often on those other boards). It's also a topic that creates quite a lot of "thread drift" on those boards because of that, perhaps?

So perhaps calling it "Retirement Income Strategies" or something, I dunno.

Maybe it's because I'm less interested in accumulation now that I'm approaching retirement :D


I think the premise that the existing boards don't cover decumulation is false.
The Pension boards (Retirement Investing - including FIRE, and Pensions - practical) already cover major decumulation issues such as Safe Withdrawal Rates (SWR), Tools for modelling decumulation ranging from simple spreadsheets to tools for historical backtesting and Monte Carlo modelling (these generally deal with both the accumulation and decumulation stages), pension specific issues such as strategies for avoiding exceeding the LTA limit, Lifetime gifting to avoid IHT etc Most of my posts to the pension boards usually cover one or more of these issues.

The only thing that isn't covered is creating a strategy similar to the set of rules that some HYP enthusiasts use to trim their portfolios but instead aimed at ranking what to sell this month to fund withdrawals. However I doubt if any such general strategy can be produced since different people will be following different investment strategies(growth, income,maximising dividends, maximising total growth) and will have different aims for decumulation (some wanting to use almost everything up before they die whilst others wanting to leave a substantial amount for their beneficiaries). Although I've no objection to setting up a board to look at whether such a strategy (or set of strategies) could be developed I'd rather such a board didn't cover the decumulation issues already covered on the pension boards which I think are best served by those boards.

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425322

Postby Dod101 » July 6th, 2021, 7:32 pm

But pension boards cover just one issue in the whole aspect of retirement funding. I think that I would be quite helpful as people seem to worry about it. Personally I do not know why but never mind. Some seem to spend an awful lot of time worrying about and planning for funding their retirement. I would be happy to reassure them that it is on the whole completely unnecessary and a new board for this would be helpful.

Dod

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425326

Postby ursaminortaur » July 6th, 2021, 7:42 pm

Dod101 wrote:But pension boards cover just one issue in the whole aspect of retirement funding. I think that I would be quite helpful as people seem to worry about it. Personally I do not know why but never mind. Some seem to spend an awful lot of time worrying about and planning for funding their retirement. I would be happy to reassure them that it is on the whole completely unnecessary and a new board for this would be helpful.

Dod


As I said one of the boards that I referred to as pension boards is actually titled Retirement investing (incl FIRE). Most of the decumulation issues that I mentioned tend to be discussed on both boards. Most of the issues are the same whether you have a pension in drawdown or all your savings in ISAs and other investments outside of a pension wrapper - only a few such as LTA limits are specific to pensions.

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425333

Postby csearle » July 6th, 2021, 7:55 pm

It is also the case that there is a hurdle to surmount in getting a new board because, as I understand it, there is a general reluctance of the site ownership to an over-abundance of boards. C.

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425341

Postby Dod101 » July 6th, 2021, 8:12 pm

csearle wrote:It is also the case that there is a hurdle to surmount in getting a new board because, as I understand it, there is a general reluctance of the site ownership to an over-abundance of boards. C.


I can understand that. Some Boards could though probably be discarded although I am not going down that road.

Dod

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425355

Postby ursaminortaur » July 6th, 2021, 9:30 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Gilgongo wrote:I'm not in favour of splitting boards, so this isn't a call for that. but might the Retirement Investing board benefit from some "guidence" for people to talk about decumulation as opposed to accumuation? The accumulation side of things is more than catered for on other boards (HYP, Investment Strategies and others), while the business of getting income from investments after retirement is somwhat scatterd about (often on those other boards). It's also a topic that creates quite a lot of "thread drift" on those boards because of that, perhaps?

So perhaps calling it "Retirement Income Strategies" or something, I dunno.

Maybe it's because I'm less interested in accumulation now that I'm approaching retirement :D


I think the premise that the existing boards don't cover decumulation is false.
The Pension boards (Retirement Investing - including FIRE, and Pensions - practical) already cover major decumulation issues such as Safe Withdrawal Rates (SWR), Tools for modelling decumulation ranging from simple spreadsheets to tools for historical backtesting and Monte Carlo modelling (these generally deal with both the accumulation and decumulation stages), pension specific issues such as strategies for avoiding exceeding the LTA limit, Lifetime gifting to avoid IHT etc Most of my posts to the pension boards usually cover one or more of these issues.

The only thing that isn't covered is creating a strategy similar to the set of rules that some HYP enthusiasts use to trim their portfolios but instead aimed at ranking what to sell this month to fund withdrawals. However I doubt if any such general strategy can be produced since different people will be following different investment strategies(growth, income,maximising dividends, maximising total growth) and will have different aims for decumulation (some wanting to use almost everything up before they die whilst others wanting to leave a substantial amount for their beneficiaries). Although I've no objection to setting up a board to look at whether such a strategy (or set of strategies) could be developed I'd rather such a board didn't cover the decumulation issues already covered on the pension boards which I think are best served by those boards.



One thought I did have is that it might be a good idea to have a set of links to the modelling tools I mentioned above in a similar fashion to the links for Financial software.

To start with

FireCalc : https://firecalc.com/
Cfiresim : https://cfiresim.com/
Flexible Retirement Planner : https://www.flexibleretirementplanner.com/wp/

I'm sure others can add more.

Most of these tools are US based though work pretty well if you just put your pound figures in as dollars.

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425421

Postby Gilgongo » July 7th, 2021, 7:51 am

ursaminortaur wrote:I think the premise that the existing boards don't cover decumulation is false.


Indeed it is false. But it's not the presmise of my post, which was that the discussion of the business of getting income from investments after retirement is somwhat scatterd about.

My initial hope was that we could re-cast an existing board (Retirement Investing?) with more guidence to encourage a dedidated space for post-retirement.

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425459

Postby ursaminortaur » July 7th, 2021, 10:23 am

Gilgongo wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:I think the premise that the existing boards don't cover decumulation is false.


Indeed it is false. But it's not the presmise of my post, which was that the discussion of the business of getting income from investments after retirement is somwhat scatterd about.

My initial hope was that we could re-cast an existing board (Retirement Investing?) with more guidence to encourage a dedidated space for post-retirement.


As I explained the major decumulation topics are already covered on two boards Retirement Investing (Incl FIRE) and Pensions practical. The only major area missing from those boards is actual discussion of investment strategies, in terms of what to hold and choosing what to sell in order to fund withdrawals, which is spread across the boards in the same way that accumulation discussion of investment strategies is spread across many boards and for the same reason - different people follow different investment strategies. Though there are general discussions in those areas on these two boards in terms of asset allocation and keeping a cash or near cash safety buffer eg
https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&p=324397#p324017

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425800

Postby DrFfybes » July 8th, 2021, 10:06 am

ursaminortaur wrote:
As I explained the major decumulation topics are already covered on two boards Retirement Investing (Incl FIRE) and Pensions practical. The only major area missing from those boards is actual discussion of investment strategies, in terms of what to hold and choosing what to sell in order to fund withdrawals, which is spread across the boards in the same way that accumulation discussion of investment strategies is spread across many boards and for the same reason - different people follow different investment strategies.


Much of it is on those 2 boards, but it is very scattered, and the Pensions - Practical Problems is not really about Investing in retirement but focusses (as it's name suggests) on Pensions, which is not really what a "Retirement Investing" board would do.

Smilarly the FIRE board seems skewed towards "have I got enough?" rather than "how do I live on it?"

I've found plenty of threads on strategies for HYP, Income, levels of income, etc, but nothing that really takes into account I want to live on my investments for probably 30+ years. Some of my better performers would simply have not come up on any discussion I can find on retirement relaed boards, off the top of my head ATST and Marlborough Micro Cap are 2 that spring to mind, neither great income providers, but income isn't everything when you are looking at 30 year returns. In fact to me, focussing on dividends for retirement income is rather dangerous, as Total Return is what matters in the long run.

It will vary between people, some will have large pension pots and lower savings, some want to leave sums to children and minimise IHT, but a edicated source for these discussions will enable people to see options they might otherwise ignore.

Paul

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425805

Postby ursaminortaur » July 8th, 2021, 11:02 am

DrFfybes wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
As I explained the major decumulation topics are already covered on two boards Retirement Investing (Incl FIRE) and Pensions practical. The only major area missing from those boards is actual discussion of investment strategies, in terms of what to hold and choosing what to sell in order to fund withdrawals, which is spread across the boards in the same way that accumulation discussion of investment strategies is spread across many boards and for the same reason - different people follow different investment strategies.


Much of it is on those 2 boards, but it is very scattered, and the Pensions - Practical Problems is not really about Investing in retirement but focusses (as it's name suggests) on Pensions, which is not really what a "Retirement Investing" board would do.

Smilarly the FIRE board seems skewed towards "have I got enough?" rather than "how do I live on it?"

I've found plenty of threads on strategies for HYP, Income, levels of income, etc, but nothing that really takes into account I want to live on my investments for probably 30+ years. Some of my better performers would simply have not come up on any discussion I can find on retirement relaed boards, off the top of my head ATST and Marlborough Micro Cap are 2 that spring to mind, neither great income providers, but income isn't everything when you are looking at 30 year returns. In fact to me, focussing on dividends for retirement income is rather dangerous, as Total Return is what matters in the long run.

It will vary between people, some will have large pension pots and lower savings, some want to leave sums to children and minimise IHT, but a edicated source for these discussions will enable people to see options they might otherwise ignore.

Paul


How is that different from discussions on what to invest in during the accumulation stage which is covered on many many different boards precisely because people have so many different strategies ?

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425853

Postby Gengulphus » July 8th, 2021, 12:50 pm

It seems to me that most of the investment boards on this site are focused on investing in a particular type of investment (e.g. Property Investment Discussions, High Yield Shares & Strategies, Investment Trusts & Unit Trusts, Gilts & Bonds, etc), or on a particular investment styles/strategies (e.g. Growth Strategies), or on a combination of investment type and style/strategy (e.g. HYP Practical), or on general techniques common to all investments (e.g. Portfolio Management & Review).

But Retirement Investing instead focuses on investing in particular personal circumstances - discussions on it can range across a wide range of different types of investment and style/strategy but need to be about investing for or during retirement, just as discussions on e.g. Investment Trusts & Unit Trusts can range across investing in a wide range of different personal circumstances but need to be about investing in investment trusts and/or unit trusts. It's not the only such board (International & Expat Investors is another), but there are plenty of personal circumstances which it doesn't cover - e.g. investing to pay off an interest-only mortgage or other capital sum due on a specific future date, or investing to pay children's school fees or some other known-length sequence of future payments (not the same problem as investing for retirement, because that's an unknown-length sequence of future payments).

The question in this thread is whether to leave Retirement Investing as it is, restrict it to being for investing during retirement only (possibly accompanied by creating a separate FIRE board, which would cover some but not all investing-for-future-retirement issues), or split it into two 'personal circumstances' boards, one each for investing during retirement and investing for future retirement. An argument is being made that an investing-for-future-retirement board isn't needed because of the range of different boards covering different types of investment and strategies/styles - which works fine for someone who is investing for future retirement and using only one type of investment and/or strategy/style, but if they want to discuss using a combination, every one of those boards is unsuitable because a large part of the discussion they want is off-topic for it... As things stand, Retirement Investing is suitable for the discussion they want, though less than ideal because those investing during retirement and those investing for future retirement are liable to end up talking at cross purposes. Splitting the board solves that at the cost of maintaining an extra board plus needing to get users to shift between the two when they retire. But reducing the Retirement Investing board to being for investing during retirement only will leave Investment Strategies as the only board suitable for the discussion they want, and that has even more potential to end up with people talking at cross purposes due to losing sight of the investing-for-future-retirement circumstances.

So while I still have little at stake here, either leaving Retirement Investing as it is or splitting it on Investing During Retirement / Investing For Future Retirement lines are the options that make sense to me.

Gengulphus

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#425864

Postby ursaminortaur » July 8th, 2021, 1:20 pm

Gengulphus wrote:The question in this thread is whether to leave Retirement Investing as it is, restrict it to being for investing during retirement only (possibly accompanied by creating a separate FIRE board, which would cover some but not all investing-for-future-retirement issues), or split it into two 'personal circumstances' boards, one each for investing during retirement and investing for future retirement. An argument is being made that an investing-for-future-retirement board isn't needed because of the range of different boards covering different types of investment and strategies/styles - which works fine for someone who is investing for future retirement and using only one type of investment and/or strategy/style, but if they want to discuss using a combination, every one of those boards is unsuitable because a large part of the discussion they want is off-topic for it... As things stand, Retirement Investing is suitable for the discussion they want, though less than ideal because those investing during retirement and those investing for future retirement are liable to end up talking at cross purposes. Splitting the board solves that at the cost of maintaining an extra board plus needing to get users to shift between the two when they retire. But reducing the Retirement Investing board to being for investing during retirement only will leave Investment Strategies as the only board suitable for the discussion they want, and that has even more potential to end up with people talking at cross purposes due to losing sight of the investing-for-future-retirement circumstances.

So while I still have little at stake here, either leaving Retirement Investing as it is or splitting it on Investing During Retirement / Investing For Future Retirement lines are the options that make sense to me.

Gengulphus


The argument about the other boards being somewhat off-topic if you are using a combination of different types of investment and strategies/styles surely applies to anyone using such a combination whether they are investing during retirement, for future retirement or investing for some other purpose. As far as I can see that doesn't seem to cause major problems.

Also provided that the original poster provides information on their circumstances in the question that they ask I can't really see why there should be any talking at cross purposes between those investing during retirement and those investing for future retirement - which as far as I can see they pretty much always do on both the Retirement Investing (incl FIRE) and Pensions Practical boards (and if they don't it would generally be one of the first questions asked in any reply).

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#426282

Postby MDW1954 » July 9th, 2021, 9:31 pm

Moderator Message:
As I said earlier, I have been watching this thread with interest. But nothing has really emerged that seems to grab a core consensus, so I haven't felt able to promote a particular change in board structure to those in a position to make it happen (ie, the other mods, and Clariman/ Stooz).

I personally feel a deaccumulation-centric board would provide a useful service, but I don't know what we'd call it, or quite how we'd distinguish it from HYS-S.

Reach some sort of consensus, and I'm all ears. As far as I'm concerned, you're pushing at an open door. But I'm only one mod.

--MDW1954

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Re: Retirement Investing board question

#426285

Postby dealtn » July 9th, 2021, 9:46 pm

MDW1954 wrote:
Moderator Message:
As I said earlier, I have been watching this thread with interest. But nothing has really emerged that seems to grab a core consensus, so I haven't felt able to promote a particular change in board structure to those in a position to make it happen (ie, the other mods, and Clariman/ Stooz).

I personally feel a deaccumulation-centric board would provide a useful service, but I don't know what we'd call it, or quite how we'd distinguish it from HYS-S.

Reach some sort of consensus, and I'm all ears. As far as I'm concerned, you're pushing at an open door. But I'm only one mod.

--MDW1954


Well an easy way of distinguishing it from HYS-S would be a recognition that not every investment strategy for retirement, be that in accumulation, or decumulation, is about yield, and certainly not about high yield.

Your general point holds, but why does this site have a constant focus on yield, and a general feeling that high is good and low is bad?


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