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Thanks button not on some threads

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stooz
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Re: Thanks button not on some threads

#427705

Postby stooz » July 14th, 2021, 5:04 pm

Hi all,
We have cleared this up a little as there was some left over setup from its predecessor.
You can now thank in the current affairs board, member or not of any strange group you can find in your profile.

Well, that's the theory. Please let us know if it isn't working right!

dealtn
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Re: Thanks button not on some threads

#427725

Postby dealtn » July 14th, 2021, 6:20 pm

stooz wrote:Hi all,
We have cleared this up a little as there was some left over setup from its predecessor.
You can now thank in the current affairs board, member or not of any strange group you can find in your profile.

Well, thats the thoery. PLease let us know if it isn't working right!


Am I missing something?

I thought we had a "Polite Discussions" a place where thanking wasn't allowed. It contributed to bad behaviours.

PD was made a sign up only Board so participants could take place on debating, thanking, and whatever behaviours.

Then PD disappeared. Then "Current Affairs and News" arrived, but with no thanks, but accessible and visible to all. Now "CAN" is to have thanks.

It seems the kind of behaviours, and frankly squabbling, are crossing over to other Boards and in my opinion spoiling the site which is after all labelled "Shares, Investment and Personal Finance Discussion Forums".

If i'm honest I have lost much motivation in participating here and suspect I am not alone.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Thanks button not on some threads

#427730

Postby ursaminortaur » July 14th, 2021, 7:00 pm

dealtn wrote:
stooz wrote:Hi all,
We have cleared this up a little as there was some left over setup from its predecessor.
You can now thank in the current affairs board, member or not of any strange group you can find in your profile.

Well, thats the thoery. PLease let us know if it isn't working right!


Am I missing something?

I thought we had a "Polite Discussions" a place where thanking wasn't allowed. It contributed to bad behaviours.

PD was made a sign up only Board so participants could take place on debating, thanking, and whatever behaviours.

Then PD disappeared. Then "Current Affairs and News" arrived, but with no thanks, but accessible and visible to all. Now "CAN" is to have thanks.

It seems the kind of behaviours, and frankly squabbling, are crossing over to other Boards and in my opinion spoiling the site which is after all labelled "Shares, Investment and Personal Finance Discussion Forums".

If i'm honest I have lost much motivation in participating here and suspect I am not alone.


Anybody who had joined the group to get access to the "Polite Discussions" board has been able to thank on the "Current Affairs and News" board since that was created. However those who came across that board more recently and hadn't joined the group to gain access since it was no longer necessary weren't able to thank people on "Current Affairs and News". From what Stooz has said that anomaly has now been corrected. I for one am happy that everyone will be able to thank people on "Current Affairs and News".

Thanks Stooz.

PS. Did you look at the other boards I mentioned "The Economy" and "The Meaning of Life" which also didn't allow thanking ?

Gengulphus
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Re: Thanks button not on some threads

#427751

Postby Gengulphus » July 14th, 2021, 9:20 pm

dealtn wrote:
stooz wrote:Hi all,
We have cleared this up a little as there was some left over setup from its predecessor.
You can now thank in the current affairs board, member or not of any strange group you can find in your profile.

Well, thats the thoery. PLease let us know if it isn't working right!

Am I missing something?

I thought we had a "Polite Discussions" a place where thanking wasn't allowed. It contributed to bad behaviours.

PD was made a sign up only Board so participants could take place on debating, thanking, and whatever behaviours.

Then PD disappeared. Then "Current Affairs and News" arrived, but with no thanks, but accessible and visible to all. Now "CAN" is to have thanks.

It seems the kind of behaviours, and frankly squabbling, are crossing over to other Boards and in my opinion spoiling the site which is after all labelled "Shares, Investment and Personal Finance Discussion Forums".

If i'm honest I have lost much motivation in participating here and suspect I am not alone.

IIRC the reason why Polite Discussions was made a sign-up board was stated to be because advertisers weren't happy about their products being associated with some opinions expressed and/or bad behaviours indulged in on the board. Those associations primarily appeared in search results, so if Polite Discussions posts were prevented from appearing in search results, the problem would be solved. And those posts could be prevented from appearing in search results by making them invisible unless the user had signed up for the board - which the search engine bots wouldn't have done.

It seems fairly clear to me that the search engine bots are now being prevented from finding Current Affairs & News posts by some other means. I know there are a number of technical ways for website owners to put 'stop sign' files at various points on their sites, that advise automated processes not to investigate the site beyond those points (*), and I presume something of that kind is now being used. It would certainly explain the observation made earlier in the thread that Current Affairs & News posts aren't appearing in Google search results even for users who can see those posts.

So I think that the main reason (and quite possibly the only significant reason) for the signing-up requirement's existence has vanished, and what's happened here is just that stooz has tidied up some loose ends remaining from its former existence. And something you're missing is that when it existed, the sign-up requirement was always about controlling the visibility of bad behaviour, not about controlling the bad behaviour itself - the site's method of doing the latter is instead moderation.

And finally, if you consider that the Current Affairs & News board is spoiling your enjoyment of the site, there is a solution available to you: don't read that board! This is something you can set up for yourself by using the subscription and/or bookmarking facilities of the software, though I believe that does have the disadvantage that those facilities don't affect the "New posts" and "Unread posts" quick links - so it might involve a change in reading habits. Or if that's too painful to contemplate, you could ask for a facility to hide selected boards from the results of those quick links. I see nothing in principle preventing such a facility from being implemented, but I have little idea how much work it would be in practice, so I don't know how likely it is that you'll get it - except that if you don't ask, it seems highly unlikely! (One thing I would suggest: if you do ask for it, do so in a new thread with an appropriate subject - much more likely to come to people's attention than buried near the end of a thread whose subject says it's about the 'thanks' facility...)

(*) Don't ask me for details beyond that very loose description - I don't know them!

Gengulphus

dealtn
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Re: Thanks button not on some threads

#427834

Postby dealtn » July 15th, 2021, 11:21 am

Gengulphus wrote:
dealtn wrote:
stooz wrote:Hi all,
We have cleared this up a little as there was some left over setup from its predecessor.
You can now thank in the current affairs board, member or not of any strange group you can find in your profile.

Well, thats the thoery. PLease let us know if it isn't working right!

Am I missing something?

I thought we had a "Polite Discussions" a place where thanking wasn't allowed. It contributed to bad behaviours.

PD was made a sign up only Board so participants could take place on debating, thanking, and whatever behaviours.

Then PD disappeared. Then "Current Affairs and News" arrived, but with no thanks, but accessible and visible to all. Now "CAN" is to have thanks.

It seems the kind of behaviours, and frankly squabbling, are crossing over to other Boards and in my opinion spoiling the site which is after all labelled "Shares, Investment and Personal Finance Discussion Forums".

If i'm honest I have lost much motivation in participating here and suspect I am not alone.

IIRC the reason why Polite Discussions was made a sign-up board was stated to be because advertisers weren't happy about their products being associated with some opinions expressed and/or bad behaviours indulged in on the board. Those associations primarily appeared in search results, so if Polite Discussions posts were prevented from appearing in search results, the problem would be solved. And those posts could be prevented from appearing in search results by making them invisible unless the user had signed up for the board - which the search engine bots wouldn't have done.

It seems fairly clear to me that the search engine bots are now being prevented from finding Current Affairs & News posts by some other means. I know there are a number of technical ways for website owners to put 'stop sign' files at various points on their sites, that advise automated processes not to investigate the site beyond those points (*), and I presume something of that kind is now being used. It would certainly explain the observation made earlier in the thread that Current Affairs & News posts aren't appearing in Google search results even for users who can see those posts.

So I think that the main reason (and quite possibly the only significant reason) for the signing-up requirement's existence has vanished, and what's happened here is just that stooz has tidied up some loose ends remaining from its former existence. And something you're missing is that when it existed, the sign-up requirement was always about controlling the visibility of bad behaviour, not about controlling the bad behaviour itself - the site's method of doing the latter is instead moderation.

And finally, if you consider that the Current Affairs & News board is spoiling your enjoyment of the site, there is a solution available to you: don't read that board! This is something you can set up for yourself by using the subscription and/or bookmarking facilities of the software, though I believe that does have the disadvantage that those facilities don't affect the "New posts" and "Unread posts" quick links - so it might involve a change in reading habits. Or if that's too painful to contemplate, you could ask for a facility to hide selected boards from the results of those quick links. I see nothing in principle preventing such a facility from being implemented, but I have little idea how much work it would be in practice, so I don't know how likely it is that you'll get it - except that if you don't ask, it seems highly unlikely! (One thing I would suggest: if you do ask for it, do so in a new thread with an appropriate subject - much more likely to come to people's attention than buried near the end of a thread whose subject says it's about the 'thanks' facility...)

(*) Don't ask me for details beyond that very loose description - I don't know them!

Gengulphus


All good and understood, but this was about the "thanking".

My understanding, as I said, was that PD didn't have thanking (regardless of whether it was free to access, or sign-up) because there were behaviours around harvesting thanks, and the tribalism on subjects. Now it maybe that such "thanks" wars aren't as important if there isn't a "best post" facility (or competition!) as there used to be.

My bigger worry, and something that needs "improving the recipe" is the apparent spill over from CAN into other Boards that happened less frequently previously I think. Whether that is related to PD returning after a brief exile, and renamed as CAN in a non-sign up way, or whether there are fewer people alerting moderators, or whether it is less vigilant or strict moderating, I don't know. Numerous times we are seeing escalation on the Coronavirus threads (themselves originally introduced as a distinct Board as non-political with a promise of strict moderation) or the Snug. The "Come on England" thread descended into a racism/social media sideshow, for instance.

Avoiding CAN doesn't solve the issues of behaviour avoidance unfortunately.

ursaminortaur
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Posts: 6222
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:26 pm
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Re: Thanks button not on some threads

#427850

Postby ursaminortaur » July 15th, 2021, 12:14 pm

dealtn wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:
dealtn wrote:Am I missing something?

I thought we had a "Polite Discussions" a place where thanking wasn't allowed. It contributed to bad behaviours.

PD was made a sign up only Board so participants could take place on debating, thanking, and whatever behaviours.

Then PD disappeared. Then "Current Affairs and News" arrived, but with no thanks, but accessible and visible to all. Now "CAN" is to have thanks.

It seems the kind of behaviours, and frankly squabbling, are crossing over to other Boards and in my opinion spoiling the site which is after all labelled "Shares, Investment and Personal Finance Discussion Forums".

If i'm honest I have lost much motivation in participating here and suspect I am not alone.

IIRC the reason why Polite Discussions was made a sign-up board was stated to be because advertisers weren't happy about their products being associated with some opinions expressed and/or bad behaviours indulged in on the board. Those associations primarily appeared in search results, so if Polite Discussions posts were prevented from appearing in search results, the problem would be solved. And those posts could be prevented from appearing in search results by making them invisible unless the user had signed up for the board - which the search engine bots wouldn't have done.

It seems fairly clear to me that the search engine bots are now being prevented from finding Current Affairs & News posts by some other means. I know there are a number of technical ways for website owners to put 'stop sign' files at various points on their sites, that advise automated processes not to investigate the site beyond those points (*), and I presume something of that kind is now being used. It would certainly explain the observation made earlier in the thread that Current Affairs & News posts aren't appearing in Google search results even for users who can see those posts.

So I think that the main reason (and quite possibly the only significant reason) for the signing-up requirement's existence has vanished, and what's happened here is just that stooz has tidied up some loose ends remaining from its former existence. And something you're missing is that when it existed, the sign-up requirement was always about controlling the visibility of bad behaviour, not about controlling the bad behaviour itself - the site's method of doing the latter is instead moderation.

And finally, if you consider that the Current Affairs & News board is spoiling your enjoyment of the site, there is a solution available to you: don't read that board! This is something you can set up for yourself by using the subscription and/or bookmarking facilities of the software, though I believe that does have the disadvantage that those facilities don't affect the "New posts" and "Unread posts" quick links - so it might involve a change in reading habits. Or if that's too painful to contemplate, you could ask for a facility to hide selected boards from the results of those quick links. I see nothing in principle preventing such a facility from being implemented, but I have little idea how much work it would be in practice, so I don't know how likely it is that you'll get it - except that if you don't ask, it seems highly unlikely! (One thing I would suggest: if you do ask for it, do so in a new thread with an appropriate subject - much more likely to come to people's attention than buried near the end of a thread whose subject says it's about the 'thanks' facility...)

(*) Don't ask me for details beyond that very loose description - I don't know them!

Gengulphus


All good and understood, but this was about the "thanking".

My understanding, as I said, was that PD didn't have thanking (regardless of whether it was free to access, or sign-up) because there were behaviours around harvesting thanks, and the tribalism on subjects. Now it maybe that such "thanks" wars aren't as important if there isn't a "best post" facility (or competition!) as there used to be.

My bigger worry, and something that needs "improving the recipe" is the apparent spill over from CAN into other Boards that happened less frequently previously I think. Whether that is related to PD returning after a brief exile, and renamed as CAN in a non-sign up way, or whether there are fewer people alerting moderators, or whether it is less vigilant or strict moderating, I don't know. Numerous times we are seeing escalation on the Coronavirus threads (themselves originally introduced as a distinct Board as non-political with a promise of strict moderation) or the Snug. The "Come on England" thread descended into a racism/social media sideshow, for instance.

Avoiding CAN doesn't solve the issues of behaviour avoidance unfortunately.


One of the points of having a board like "Current Affairs and News" is that when things become "political" on other boards it is possible to move the discussions to that board. Without PD/CAN or something similar then political discussions appear more on the other boards and increase the workload of moderators who without somewhere to move discussions have to choose between locking threads or deleting the "political" posts. Of course if the problem with the posts on the other boards is something like racism then those posts should just be removed totally anyway rather than transferred.

dealtn
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Re: Thanks button not on some threads

#427852

Postby dealtn » July 15th, 2021, 12:24 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
One of the points of having a board like "Current Affairs and News" is that when things become "political" on other boards it is possible to move the discussions to that board. Without PD/CAN or something similar then political discussions appear more on the other boards and increase the workload of moderators who without somewhere to move discussions have to choose between locking threads or deleting the "political" posts. Of course if the problem with the posts on the other boards is something like racism then those posts should just be removed totally anyway rather than transferred.


Agreed.

Yet often such posts/threads aren't moved, and so those politics/arguments remain in situ. Obviously this is a moderator resource issue too, but in the absence of reporting/moderating/moving from an end user experience it may result in less contributions and ultimately leaving the site as a means of solving the issue from a personal perspective, which is a detrimental outcome surely? Over time such marginal withdrawals change the ethos and community of the site. Is that an improvement the community wishes to address?

I think you are right, early and sensible reporting and moderation in practice can actually reduce the amount of call on that scarce moderator resource.

csearle
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Re: Thanks button not on some threads

#427925

Postby csearle » July 15th, 2021, 7:15 pm

dealtn wrote:I think you are right, early and sensible reporting and moderation in practice can actually reduce the amount of call on that scarce moderator resource.
So do I. If something is reported then a moderator will be alerted and can take view on it. If it is not reported then it may go unread. C.


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