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A whinge

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
richfool
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Re: A whinge

#441131

Postby richfool » September 9th, 2021, 10:39 pm

Dod101 wrote:
richfool wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Could not possibly do that. I would not know what I was missing!

All the best

Dod

That would tend to support my thinking that your responses and posts are all too often mischievous and provocative, if not trolling. What's that expression about idle hands?


I do not know what the expression trolling means but for Heaven's sake, just lighten up! Some lighthearted stirring surely does no harm and frankly you set yourself up for it. I have no serious difference with you. If you have with me then just put me on your ignore list. I will not be offended because apart from anything else i will not know.

Dod

Try googling "internet trolling" and see if the cap fits. *I'm not going to look up anything else for you*. :roll:

Ironically, I am a lighthearted person with a strong sense of humour (though I usually minimise it on the investment boards, excepting the Laughing Lemons board). It's just that you antagonise me with your often provocative, antagonistic, quibbling, sniping or diversionary comments on many of my posts..

* So it's going to be tickers (EPIC's) only, from now on from me, except on topic titles. 8-)

Dod101
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Re: A whinge

#441134

Postby Dod101 » September 9th, 2021, 11:04 pm

I Googled trolling after our last exchange. 'Inflammatory, irrelevant or offensive comments'. Well if any of that applies to me I am very sorry but you are the only one who has come near to accusing me of that so maybe you could look at yourself as well. Good heavens I have no idea about you; all I do is read your posts as you evidently read mine.

Anyway I am wasting no more time on this. If you do not want to read my words of wisdom then press the 'Manage foes' button although why you would regard me as a foe I do not know. You are a strange fellow.

Dod

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Re: A whinge

#441145

Postby csearle » September 9th, 2021, 11:56 pm

absolutezero wrote:I'm not convinced the word 'sanctions' is a gentle request. Are you?

The gentle request, as you perfectly well know, was exactly this:

Moderator Message:
Just a gentle reminder that the focus of this thread should remain on the practical aspects of a tax on dividends to HYPs rather than the rights or wrongs of such a tax. If you wish to discuss these please feel free to do so on a tailor-made area of this site. Thanks - Chris

This you deliberately chose to ignore, twice(!), which led to the escalation...

Moderator Message:
Several posts completely ignoring the preceding moderator requests have been removed. Please follow the guidelines of this board to avoid sanctions. Thanks - Chris

That in my view is completely reasonable.

The only sanction for disruptive users, like you, that have a total disregard for a board's guidelines is to be banned from the site altogether. I would prefer it if I could ban you just from the HYP-Practical board because you choose, despite warnings, to disrupt it, but that facility is unfortunately unavailable.

Chris

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Re: A whinge

#441147

Postby Lootman » September 10th, 2021, 12:02 am

csearle wrote:The only sanction for disruptive users, like you, that have a total disregard regard for a board's guidelines are to be banned from the site altogether. I would prefer it if I could ban you just from the HYP-Practical board because you choose, despite warnings to disrupt it, but that facility is unfortunately unavailable.

I am not taking sides on this issue. But on TMF there were bans on individual boards for certain users. (I know because I was banned for a while from posting on one particular TMF board). The technology did not allow it. But the penance for posting on a board after being banned from it was a total ban, temporary or permanent.

So at least in theory a single board ban could be issued by TLF. It would just require manual monitoring.

csearle
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Re: A whinge

#441149

Postby csearle » September 10th, 2021, 12:15 am

Lootman wrote:
csearle wrote:The only sanction for disruptive users, like you, that have a total disregard regard for a board's guidelines are to be banned from the site altogether. I would prefer it if I could ban you just from the HYP-Practical board because you choose, despite warnings to disrupt it, but that facility is unfortunately unavailable.

I am not taking sides on this issue. But on TMF there were bans on individual boards for certain users. (I know because I was banned for a while from posting on one particular TMF board). The technology did not allow it. But the penance for posting on a board after being banned from it was a total ban, temporary or permanent.

So at least in theory a single board ban could be issued by TLF. It would just require manual monitoring.
I hadn't thought of that. Yes even if the phpBB platform does not support banning users from posting on specific boards the team could agree that a breach of specific user-board posting combinations results in an automatic site ban. Probably mainly applicable on HYP-P as that is the only board that (for some reason) attracts such antipathy.

I'll broach it with the admins as this is clearly becoming an issue.

Thanks. C.

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Re: A whinge

#441182

Postby XFool » September 10th, 2021, 9:41 am

Specifically wrt HYP troubles -

I hope I can be forgiven for sticking my oar into this nest of vipers!

I am not a HYP investor, this could be both an advantage and a disadvantage. I am genuinely disinterested - that I am not a HYP investor means nothing about by attitude or opinion of HYP investment or posters. I have no opinion either way, for or against. OTOH, not being involved means my understanding of the issues could be quite naive. Anyway, here goes...

I noticed mention of problematical discussions on "total return" and how a statement: "capital doesn't matter" was ridiculous, or somesuch. This intrigued me.

Outsider I may be, but I still remember HYP's origins on UK TMF. I remember the original suggestion came from poster Pyad on that site. As I remember it was to use a fixed capital sum to buy a portfolio of individual, dividend paying company shares from the FTSE-100. Big, reliable companies unlikely to go bust, likely to continue paying out dividends. The purpose of such a HYP was to act long term as an addition/alternative to/replacement for an annuity (very likely a pension annuity).

In that original context "capital doesn't matter" seems to make sense (provided the idea works out long term!). For, just like an annuity, the original capital has been foregone following purchase. What matters - the only thing that matters - is the continuing income stream.

After this original Pyadic HYP idea was floated, if I remember correctly (I may not) two things happened. Possibly the most significant in the current context is that some took the original HYP idea and ran with it (suitably modified) as a long term investment portfolio strategy. Which AFAICS is not what the original idea of HYP was about. Again, I make no comment and have no opinion as to the virtue or otherwise of such an investment approach, other than to point out it was very different from the original HYP conception.

As an aside, on TMF over time, HYP was subjected to modifications of the original (suggested) 'rules', both in the case of the original Pyadic HYP and its transition by some into a general investment strategy (necessarily so in the latter case).

I'm sure all this is likely well known to many (most?) posters on TLF HYP boards. But to everyone? When I see arguments over "total return" and "capital doesn't matter" it makes me wonder if these differences have been lost over time or are not appreciated by newer posters, causing people to argue 'past' each other. I seem to remember that on TMF these same arguments resulted in some kind of split in the HYP boards, possibly between 'Pyad HYP' and 'Other HYP', but this is where my memory definitely lets me down.

The only thing I can think to suggest now is that these two broadly different versions of HYP be explicitly resurrected in the TLF boards (Merely saying 'Pyad HYP' now won't help newcomers)

How about:

Hi Yield Portfolio as an Annuity (Pyad HYP)

Hi Yield Portfolio Investing (HYP)

Under those two umbrellas there could still be room for different streams of 'modifications' to both those two broad categories.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: A whinge

#441188

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » September 10th, 2021, 10:00 am

Gengulphus wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I have not read all of G's contribution and am constantly amazed that he can be bothered. ...

Whereas I am constantly amazed that you can be bothered commenting on the length of my posts...

Dod101 wrote:There ought to be a limit on the number of words per post, ...

There is a limit on the length of posts, actually, and I've very occasionally run into it...

But more important, if you think there should be a rather tighter limit than that one, why don't you start a discussion on this board proposing that TLF adopt one? You never know: the site's users, moderators and admins might end up agreeing with you and impose such a limit, and if they do, I'll commit to abiding by it. Starting such a discussion would almost certainly cost you far less effort than you've spent over the years moaning about the length of my posts, and it does stand some chance of achieving the result you evidently desire, whereas just moaning about the length of my posts from time to time stands no chance of doing so.

To make that commitment plain, I'll regard a post length limit imposed as a result of such a decision as a matter of site policy, not just a technical limitation of the posting software - so I won't work around it by splitting what is really a post that exceeds the limit into multiple, separately-posted parts.

Finally, I will not reply further on this thread about the idea of such a post length limit. If you or anyone else wants to discuss it any further, start a new thread on the idea - don't hijack this thread for the purpose.

Gengulphus

I think I have mentioned in the past the length of your posts. Can I clarify that it was very much tongue in cheek and an "ice breaking" comment. However, that doesn't mean I communicated that effectively to you. I am a very gregarious person (held back by my health issues at times) and try to adapt my style and approach to other board users whom I feel I would like to chat with and perhaps share "frivolity" in the midst of more serious discussions. If my previous comments have caused ill feeling I am sincerely and genuinely sorry. I will do my best to keep my "frivolity side" managed and mitigated :lol:

I'm aware that you contribute enormously to the site and seem to enjoy the personal feelings it creates when you do. Keep going ;)

This morning I woke to put two feet on the floor at the side of my bed. I've promised myself that each morning until my last I will look down at those feet and remind myself just how lucky I am. Fortunately I'm also able to come here and chat with others including you and share thoughts and ideas.

Thank you

Take care

AiY

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Re: A whinge

#441192

Postby 88V8 » September 10th, 2021, 10:11 am

scrumpyjack wrote:Hey guys, if someone irritates you, just put them on your ignore list, That is what that function is for.
One improvement I would suggest would be that any post quoting the ignored poster should also not be shown. Apart from that you really do not need to read stuff you don't want to. :D

Is this a primer in How To Create An Echo Chamber?

There are various posters with whom I don't necessarily agree, but in the same way that I often disagree with Matthew Parris (Times columnist) I still read his pieces because sometimes he presents a pov that hadn't occurred to me, and sometimes he's right and I'm wrong...

Funny how the HYP boards create such fuss. Was the same on TMF.
A pity that all the boards don't have as much traffic.
More traffic on HYP than all the other investment boards put together. :)

Perhaps instead of standing outside throwing stones, the non-HYPers should try and create some useful traction of their own.

V8 (HYPish)

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Re: A whinge

#441196

Postby Alaric » September 10th, 2021, 10:22 am

88V8 wrote:Funny how the HYP boards create such fuss. Was the same on TMF.


Supporters of HYP have formed their own little bubble of belief which they aggressively defend against the outside world. If you do not see any value whatsoever in metaphors about joggers and marathon runners, you wonder why they reject measures such as total portfolio value.

Many HYP adherents aren't using it as a retirement income supplement anyway but as a growth portfolio, Hence all the posts about top-ups.

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Re: A whinge

#441209

Postby 88V8 » September 10th, 2021, 10:52 am

Alaric wrote:
88V8 wrote:Funny how the HYP boards create such fuss. Was the same on TMF.


Supporters of HYP have formed their own little bubble of belief which they aggressively defend against the outside world. If you do not see any value whatsoever in metaphors about joggers and marathon runners, you wonder why they reject measures such as total portfolio value.
Many HYP adherents aren't using it as a retirement income supplement anyway but as a growth portfolio, Hence all the posts about top-ups.

It says something about the merits of HYP that it creates such a collegiate ethos.

Mind you, I've always felt that running of any variety is very over-rated.

Top-ups are often from accrued dividends.
If not, well, why shouldn't one add to the portfolio?
The original idea was indeed a one-shot and there are/were demo one-shot portfolios, but that's not usually how one does it.

Yes, the value of the shares might rise. And? :)

V8

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Re: A whinge

#441231

Postby Gengulphus » September 10th, 2021, 12:05 pm

dealtn wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:And more widely, those rules about being respectful are site-wide. Remarks about HYPers not tolerating "blasphemy", about the "HYP Taliban", about "backslapping HYP adherents", about "HYP zealots", etc, do not show respect for those site users who are HYPers, no matter which board they're posted on - and don't assume that just because it's not a HYP board, there aren't HYPers reading it. By posting such remarks, people are not only breaking site rules, but also contributing to a general feeling of unpleasantness on the site that is liable to drive people away.

Absolutely, but at least recognise this is 2-way.

Already done by the time you posted that - see the second paragraph of my reply viewtopic.php?p=441073#p441073 to Lootman above. (Not blaming you for having missed it in a voluminous thread - just establishing that I had already done it.)

dealtn wrote:The first reference to "Investment Strategy Taliban" was actually made by referring to "Total Return Taliban", not on HYPP, and reported to moderators with little effect. More generally much of the issues you refer to, and the concerns about moderation, aren't taking place on HYPP, and aren't about the HYP strategy. Much of it is about other strategies that don't appear to have either the profile or protection of HYP.

In the bit of my post you've quoted, "those rules" refers to the preceding paragraph:

Gengulphus wrote:Also, this site will only work if people pay proper attention to the site rules that users are expected "to be respectful, understanding and helpful to other posters", "remain polite and respectful at all times" and that they should "Stick to the facts and argue the points discussed, rather than criticise the poster". For every user, that involves refraining from posting their thoughts willy-nilly all over the place, whenever they see a connection with a discussion that's ongoing, and instead choosing to post on appropriate boards. If you think that the HYP Practical board is just "a bunch of HYPers talking about the same shares over and over again", you might or might not be right - but respect their right to talk about that subject, without major intrusions from other subjects or dismissive remarks.

All discussions on TLF, whether about HYP strategies, any other type of investment strategy, or not about investment strategies at all, get the protection of those rules. I agree that HYP strategies get the additional protection of having a board of their own, but that's not the protection I was talking about.

And as far as I am aware, the only reason that no other type of strategy gets that additional protection is that nobody has even tried to obtain it. I cannot of course guarantee that a well-thought-out proposal for an analogous board to HYP Practical for a different type of strategy would succeed, but I would certainly hope that it would for the sake of fairness (provided only that a reasonable number of users wanted to use it). The essential parts of being well-thought-out are IMHO:

* That it identifies the type of strategy it's about in terms that the moderators can reasonably easily use to decide whether a strategy is on-topic or off-topic for the board, at least in the great majority of cases (there will of course always be some grey areas at the edges of any board's topic).

* That it confines itself to practical matters to do with running strategies of that type, and not whether to use that type of strategy - regarding posts about why people should use such strategies as just as off-topic as ones about why they shouldn't use them (this is because the "shouldn't use" side of such a discussion would be grossly handicapped by not being allowed to talk about the alternatives, and it would be completely unreasonable to allow the "should use" side to be argued without also allowing the "shouldn't use" side to be argued).

Gengulphus

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Re: A whinge

#441232

Postby tjh290633 » September 10th, 2021, 12:06 pm

XFool wrote:I noticed mention of problematical discussions on "total return" and how a statement: "capital doesn't matter" was ridiculous, or somesuch. This intrigued me.

XFool wrote:In that original context "capital doesn't matter" seems to make sense (provided the idea works out long term!). For, just like an annuity, the original capital has been foregone following purchase. What matters - the only thing that matters - is the continuing income stream.

"Capital doesn't matter" is a misquote. The concept was that the provision of a growing income was the principal objective. Capital appreciation, although welcome, was secondary. The original capital has not been foregone, unlike with an annuity. It is retained.

The objective was to receive an increasing flow of dividends from the capital invested. Since the original concept was not to reinvest those dividends, Total Return is of more interest to those using the method for future income. It is, however a measure of the portfolio's performance. I have looked at my portfolio both as Income units and Accumulation units, the latter being a measure of Total Return.

There is nothing to stop an investor reporting on the total return of his portfolio. It is just a measure of the performance. However the main objective is that growing stream of income, and how that stream performs is the real measure of an HYP's performance.

TJH

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Re: A whinge

#441233

Postby absolutezero » September 10th, 2021, 12:07 pm

csearle wrote:
absolutezero wrote:I'm not convinced the word 'sanctions' is a gentle request. Are you?

The gentle request, as you perfectly well know, was exactly this:

Moderator Message:
Just a gentle reminder that the focus of this thread should remain on the practical aspects of a tax on dividends to HYPs rather than the rights or wrongs of such a tax. If you wish to discuss these please feel free to do so on a tailor-made area of this site. Thanks - Chris

This you deliberately chose to ignore, twice(!), which led to the escalation...

Moderator Message:
Several posts completely ignoring the preceding moderator requests have been removed. Please follow the guidelines of this board to avoid sanctions. Thanks - Chris

That in my view is completely reasonable.

The only sanction for disruptive users, like you, that have a total disregard for a board's guidelines is to be banned from the site altogether. I would prefer it if I could ban you just from the HYP-Practical board because you choose, despite warnings, to disrupt it, but that facility is unfortunately unavailable.

Chris


Again. It wasn't on HYPP.

I'm actually beginning to think it's personal with you. And I have said as much in my email to Stooz.
The tone of your words and the choice of words you use in your posts towards me do not come across as balanced and dispassionate.
Go back and re-read them. Little chips and jibes here and there. Italics and emboldening that come across as passive aggressive.

A suggestion: Someone else, who doesn't have a personal issue with my posts, should moderate me (if necessary) and you should take a step back.
I do not believe you are approaching things objectively.

As an aside. Who re-named my thread title to 'a whinge'?

MDW1954
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Re: A whinge

#441248

Postby MDW1954 » September 10th, 2021, 1:01 pm

absolutezero wrote:
Again. It wasn't on HYPP.



Moderator Message:
I also moderated that thread. I do assure you, it WAS on HYP-P, and you persisted in posting off-topic posts despite being asked to desist.

Let me know if you require a screen shot in order to prove that the repeated assertion that it wasn't on HYP-P is untrue. --MDW1954

absolutezero
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Re: A whinge

#441283

Postby absolutezero » September 10th, 2021, 3:21 pm

MDW1954 wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
Again. It wasn't on HYPP.



Moderator Message:
I also moderated that thread. I do assure you, it WAS on HYP-P, and you persisted in posting off-topic posts despite being asked to desist.

Let me know if you require a screen shot in order to prove that the repeated assertion that it wasn't on HYP-P is untrue. --MDW1954

Please do.
My original topic entitled 'What's so good about dividend investing?' was on HYP Strategies - which, according to other mods, is the correct place for a discussion of that nature.

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Re: A whinge

#441285

Postby Itsallaguess » September 10th, 2021, 3:34 pm

absolutezero wrote:
MDW1954 wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
Again. It wasn't on HYPP.


Moderator Message:
I also moderated that thread. I do assure you, it WAS on HYP-P, and you persisted in posting off-topic posts despite being asked to desist.

Let me know if you require a screen shot in order to prove that the repeated assertion that it wasn't on HYP-P is untrue. --MDW1954


Please do.

My original topic entitled 'What's so good about dividend investing?' was on HYP Strategies - which, according to other mods, is the correct place for a discussion of that nature.


It was, but the deleted tax-related posts that you're talking about weren't on that thread...

I can feel an apology coming on, but we'll see if it's forthcoming I suppose...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: A whinge

#441288

Postby absolutezero » September 10th, 2021, 3:40 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
MDW1954 wrote:


Moderator Message:
I also moderated that thread. I do assure you, it WAS on HYP-P, and you persisted in posting off-topic posts despite being asked to desist.

Let me know if you require a screen shot in order to prove that the repeated assertion that it wasn't on HYP-P is untrue. --MDW1954


Please do.

My original topic entitled 'What's so good about dividend investing?' was on HYP Strategies - which, according to other mods, is the correct place for a discussion of that nature.


It was, but the deleted tax-related posts that you're talking about weren't on that thread...

I can feel an apology coming on, but we'll see if it's forthcoming I suppose...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I'm not talking about those.
That's totally fair. I made some comment about the politics of leaving that note saying 'There's no money left'.
Moved on from that.
See my opening comment on this thread.

What's happened now is people are conflating several issues.
The one I am mostly talking about is the thread on Strategies and the heavy handed moderation polices.

Speaking of that apology, I am still waiting.
I note that no moderator has yet come forward to claim ownership of the choice of title for this re-named thread.
Last edited by absolutezero on September 10th, 2021, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A whinge

#441290

Postby bluedonkey » September 10th, 2021, 3:43 pm

I knew it would be a mistake looking at this thread. Just When I Thought I Was Out, They Pull Me Back In!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UneS2Uw ... Movieclips

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Re: A whinge

#441291

Postby Itsallaguess » September 10th, 2021, 3:43 pm

absolutezero wrote:
What's happened now is people are conflating several issues.


If you're looking for any sympathy for you losing track of the multiple streams of disruption that you've been causing recently, then I would politely ask you to look elsewhere...

Don't forget the apology...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

absolutezero
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Re: A whinge

#441294

Postby absolutezero » September 10th, 2021, 3:47 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
What's happened now is people are conflating several issues.


If you're looking for any sympathy for you losing track of the multiple streams of disruption that you've been causing recently, then I would politely ask you to look elsewhere...

Don't forget the apology...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

If by 'disruption' you mean opening a thread questioning the logic behind dividend investing on Strategies (my main point in this thread) and the HYP purists getting upset about that, then no apology will be forthcoming as I have done nothing wrong. As one mod said, that is the correct place for that discussion.

WRT to the 'there's no money left' comment, we've moved on from that. It was never part of my discussion in this thread.


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