Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

A whinge

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
absolutezero
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1505
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 542 times
Been thanked: 653 times

Re: A whinge

#441068

Postby absolutezero » September 9th, 2021, 7:25 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
richfool wrote:I tend to stick to the "Investment Trust & Unit Trust" board these days, or Investment Strategies, and try and avoid other specialist boards, unless I get drawn in by a topic title that is of particular interest to me.

Oh, just a minute, come to think of it, how did I get drawn into this topic, with its vague and obscure title: "A whinge". - I normally avoid vague or obscure topic titles *. Ah, I know, ..... because it was on the "Improve the Recipe" board,- a board where one would hope that suggestions are viewed with a positive and relatively open mind. ;)

* viewtopic.php?p=439575#p439575

Interestingly, I didn't originally call it 'A Whinge'.
It seems someone else, of all the names they could have chosen, has decided that 'a whinge' would be a good name for it.
That's telling in itself.

That's not all that's happening. My post agreeing with you and saying about ignoring a poster (that I actually did not name) has disappeared without trace. I am sorry, this has gone too far. It's my turn to say that's me done.

Admin will get a PM in a minute requesting that my account and posts are deleted is next.

Goodbye.

RVF

Sad. Another poster who contributes a lot to any discussion feels unable to carry on posting here.
Come on, mods. Is this REALLY what you want?

absolutezero
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1505
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 542 times
Been thanked: 653 times

Re: A whinge

#441070

Postby absolutezero » September 9th, 2021, 7:26 pm

csearle wrote:
absolutezero wrote:As mods, I do think you need to consider your policies of this site and ask why so many of the older (useful) contributors have stopped bothering.
For my part I've considered it. I reckon the older contributors keep posting until they no longer inhabit their bodies. C.

I didn't mean age when I said 'old'.
'Long standing' would have been a better description.

Gengulphus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4255
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:17 am
Been thanked: 2628 times

Re: A whinge

#441073

Postby Gengulphus » September 9th, 2021, 7:46 pm

Lootman wrote:I guess what I am saying is that the way some defenders of HYP talk, it can lead to criticism of themselves and not just the subject. I do not believe that the blame is all one one side.

I agree that it can lead to that - but the rule is quite clear that it shouldn't: do criticise what they say, don't criticise them personally. It's an easy enough rule to follow - provided one has some reasonable criticisms to make of what they say. Of course, if one has run out of such criticisms, it boils down to shutting up or criticising them personally - and too often, people choose the latter.

And I do agree that the blame is not all on one side. For example, I've seen HYPers post comments to the effect that various people posting on HYP Practical are "snipers" who are just out to cause trouble on the board. Whether or not that's actually the case, such comments are personal attacks and so not allowed by the rule.

Lootman wrote:I would agree that personal remarks are widely tolerated here. That is particularly clear on the Current Affairs and News board, although perhaps that is considered a special case from a moderation perspective.

The question I would ask is why does this toleration exists? Despite the rule that you cited, is it possible that the site sponsors are not really that concerned about personal remarks unless they rise to a certain level of abuse?

It's possible, and indeed IMHO probable that there is such a "certain level of abuse", but I don't think the level of abuse needed to get the moderators to take action is all that high. That view is based on my experience of reporting personal attacks (both on myself and on others), which has mostly been that my reports are acted on. So it seems a lot more likely to me that the reason for the toleration is that users are tolerating it by failing to report abuses, than that the moderators and admins are tolerating it by failing to take action when it is reported. Which would be reasonably OK if the users were properly tolerating it - but what happens too often is that they tolerate it to the extent of failing to report it, but not to the extent of failing to reply heatedly and often in an equally rule-breaking fashion to it... :-(

Lootman wrote:If someone refers to "the HYP Taliban" I would not personally interpret that as someone suggesting that you are a terrorist or that you advocate violence. It might just be a light-hearted way of suggesting that your investment approach can appear fundamentalist or intolerant to some. Whether you regard it as whimsy or an insult is very much a personal decision. As Ricky Gervais quipped: "Just because you are offended, doesn't mean you are right".

As I said, "whether something is an insult is determined not by how you feel about it, but by its generally-accepted meaning", so don't expect me to regard your attitude to a "Taliban" comment as decisive - especially when it's very clearly not a comment that's aimed at you. And the likelihood of such a comment being generally accepted as light-hearted and not meant insultingly by any sizeable group of people that it is aimed at (*) strikes me as remote, especially when they can only see the words (TMF had a very relevant bit of guidance on such matters back when it had discussion boards).

(*) Other than the Taliban themselves, of course! And possibly some similar groups - but equally some other similar groups would probably regard it as a deadly insult...

Lootman wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:
Lootman wrote:Absolutezero seems to be saying that the rules and the moderation are too strict. If I understand you correctly you are saying the opposite - that they do not go far enough. ...

You don't understand me correctly. I'm not saying that the rules and the moderation are either too strict or too lax. I'm saying that they're mismatched: the existing moderation is not succeeding in getting a sizeable proportion of the site's users to take the existing site rules seriously. That's my diagnosis of what's causing this sort of outbreak; I'm not prescribing any particular cure because while I can see that it's frustrating for the moderators, I can't see what type of cure the admins (especially) and the moderators want to achieve... If any, that is - it's entirely possible that they've settled for leaving things in their current mismatched state and hoping nothing will blow up too seriously.

I am not sure what you mean by "blow up too seriously". ...

If the admins and moderators have settled for leaving the rules and moderation in their current mismatched state, hoping nothing will blow up too seriously, it's pretty obviously up to them to decide exactly what "blow up too seriously" means - not me! I'm describing the general possibility that they're not actually seeking a "cure" for that situation in very general terms, and I'm not going to go into all the detailed possibilities that might cover because that would be a never-ending task...

Gengulphus

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: A whinge

#441075

Postby Dod101 » September 9th, 2021, 7:52 pm

richfool wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Interestingly, I didn't originally call it 'A Whinge'.
It seems someone else, of all the names they could have chosen, has decided that 'a whinge' would be a good name for it.
That's telling in itself.

That's not all that's happening. My post agreeing with you and saying about ignoring a poster (that I actually did not name) has disappeared without trace. I am sorry, this has gone too far. It's my turn to say that's me done.

Admin will get a PM in a minute requesting that my account and posts are deleted is next.

Goodbye.

RVF

That is a shame. I must admit I felt frustrated over two things recently.

Firstly, I felt that my post about obscure titles, on this board, wasn't really taken seriously or with an open mind. It seemed like posters, not least moderators, were taking it in turns to belittle or mock what was to me a sensible and serious suggestion. Despite the board being called: "Improve the Recipe".

Secondly, a particular poster who had irritated me a lot over recent weeks, yet again jumped in to mock me, even on that thread, despite the fact that, in a PM, he had previously agreed to leave my posts alone. Ironically my frustration with him had been because, all too often, no sooner had I made a post, he would pop up to make some irritating remark, usually ignoring the question I had posed, or even saying that he had no knowledge to answer my question, but instead he would make some comment about my stamp collection of holdings, or ask why I held so many, or suggest that a tracker might be more suitable, or even once just to say he had no relevant knowledge. It was like I was asking him personally and he felt he had to give an answer.

Then we had the spat over EPIC's, when he took issue with one particular post where I had re-quoted another post which only listed the EPIC's, despite the fact, in most of my posts and listings of my IT holdings, I do give the full names, ironically, primarily for his benefit. Even in one of those, he then commented on my mis-spelling of Dunedin (DIG) in a list of some 25 IT's. For him to then find my "Improve the Recipe" post and belittle that too, rather took the biscuit for me.

If only I could put him on an "Ignore Me" list! :(


Do you know? That sound like richfool's description of me. Well, if he does not want to read my posts he just has to put them on his ignore list. He of course will be the loser since he will miss my words of wisdom (not) but he does not know that until he reads them. That will be his problem not mine.

Dod

csearle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4764
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm
Has thanked: 4814 times
Been thanked: 2083 times

Re: A whinge

#441086

Postby csearle » September 9th, 2021, 8:41 pm

absolutezero wrote:
csearle wrote:
absolutezero wrote:As mods, I do think you need to consider your policies of this site and ask why so many of the older (useful) contributors have stopped bothering.
For my part I've considered it. I reckon the older contributors keep posting until they no longer inhabit their bodies. C.

I didn't mean age when I said 'old'.
'Long standing' would have been a better description.
Ah, I see. I don't accept your premise. You seem currently peeved I suspect because two of your off-topic posts were deleted following a gentle request to remain on-topic.

Your argumentation seems much more in line with trying to spin a story that people are leaving because of moderation. This argument has in the past been used as a parting shot. In my opinion the benefits of moderation far, far outweigh the downsides.

If you really, really don't like this site then there is one blindingly obvious way to get around the problem: don't log in to it. There is an abundance of unmoderated sites out there where you can talk about anything you like on any board and revel in the anarchy.

Chris

absolutezero
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1505
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 542 times
Been thanked: 653 times

Re: A whinge

#441088

Postby absolutezero » September 9th, 2021, 8:45 pm

csearle wrote: In my opinion the benefits of moderation far, far outweigh the downsides.

You miss my point.
It's not binary. There are not just moderated and unmoderated forums.
It's the level of moderation that is the issue, not the fact the forum is moderated.

I'm not convinced the word 'sanctions' is a gentle request. Are you?
Last edited by absolutezero on September 9th, 2021, 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

doolally
Lemon Slice
Posts: 632
Joined: February 8th, 2021, 10:55 am
Has thanked: 107 times
Been thanked: 509 times

Re: A whinge

#441089

Postby doolally » September 9th, 2021, 8:48 pm

I think it is sad that this little forum in a dusty corner of the universe highlights the modern-day curse of "lack of tolerance".
A mod deleted a post? Does it really matter? Really?

Come on, lads and lasses, stop taking yourselves so seriously, Take a chill pill. Have a nice single malt.

It's just not worth all this angst

doolally

Clariman
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3268
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:17 am
Has thanked: 3077 times
Been thanked: 1557 times

Re: A whinge

#441099

Postby Clariman » September 9th, 2021, 9:04 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:That's not all that's happening. My post agreeing with you and saying about ignoring a poster (that I actually did not name) has disappeared without trace. I am sorry, this has gone too far. It's my turn to say that's me done. Admin will get a PM in a minute requesting that my account and posts are deleted is next. Goodbye. RVF

I acknowledge receipt of RVF's PM and have replied suggesting they are very welcome to stay but will delete their account if they wish. I await their further instructions.

However, I must set the record straight. RVF has said their post has "disappeared without trace" even though "I actually did not name" the poster who should be ignored. Let me just state the facts here.

  • Poster A made a disparaging remark about another NAMED poster.
  • RVF quoted the original disparaging remark which NAMED the other poster and amplified it with some additional criticism of their own.

Both posts were removed by a Moderator for breaking the site rules. Simple. Nothing more to see here.

I hope this clarifies the matter.

Clariman

Clariman
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3268
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:17 am
Has thanked: 3077 times
Been thanked: 1557 times

Re: A whinge

#441103

Postby Clariman » September 9th, 2021, 9:11 pm

Moderator Message:
As a footnote to my post above. Fools should be aware that when a post is deleted by a moderator, it is 'soft-deleted' which means that site users and other moderators cannot see the deleted post. However, the Admins can choose to view any soft-deleted post. So when anyone has an issue with deleted posts and cries foul, do bear in mind that Stooz and I have full visibility of what had been posted. Thanks Clariman


Moderator Message:
To expand slightly on Clariman's post, moderators can also view soft-deleted posts. -- MDW1954

richfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3492
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 1195 times
Been thanked: 1280 times

Re: A whinge

#441106

Postby richfool » September 9th, 2021, 9:17 pm

Sorry to pursue my frustration on this thread, but:
Do you know? That sound like richfool's description of me. Well, if he does not want to read my posts he just has to put them on his ignore list. He of course will be the loser since he will miss my words of wisdom (not) but he does not know that until he reads them. That will be his problem not mine.

Dod

....The other way round would work for me. If you, Dod, would please not read, ignore, or more importantly not reply to my posts, that would resolve most of my frustrations. I can cope without your wisdom, thanks.

csearle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4764
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm
Has thanked: 4814 times
Been thanked: 2083 times

Re: A whinge

#441109

Postby csearle » September 9th, 2021, 9:30 pm

Sounds like you two should really meet up for a pint or two and drink away your differences. C.

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18681
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 6564 times

Re: A whinge

#441110

Postby Lootman » September 9th, 2021, 9:37 pm

csearle wrote:Sounds like you two should really meet up for a pint or two and drink away your differences. C.

You know, usually when I see a squabble on TLF I reckon I can pretty much identify one side as the villain and the other guy as the good guy. But I like both Rich and Dod, and both are established and respected Lemons here so I am baffled. I did not see the posts in question and so cannot offer more than that, but I think it is a shame.

They should kiss, cuddle and make up.

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: A whinge

#441111

Postby Dod101 » September 9th, 2021, 9:41 pm

richfool wrote:Sorry to pursue my frustration on this thread, but:
Do you know? That sound like richfool's description of me. Well, if he does not want to read my posts he just has to put them on his ignore list. He of course will be the loser since he will miss my words of wisdom (not) but he does not know that until he reads them. That will be his problem not mine.

Dod

....The other way round would work for me. If you, Dod, would please not read, ignore, or more importantly not reply to my posts, that would resolve most of my frustrations. I can cope without your wisdom, thanks.


Could not possibly do that. I would not know what I was missing!

All the best

Dod

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: A whinge

#441112

Postby Dod101 » September 9th, 2021, 9:43 pm

csearle wrote:Sounds like you two should really meet up for a pint or two and drink away your differences. C.


I have no differences with richfool any more than with any other Lemon. No two posters are going to agree on everything.

Dod

richfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3492
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 1195 times
Been thanked: 1280 times

Re: A whinge

#441116

Postby richfool » September 9th, 2021, 9:59 pm

Dod101 wrote:
richfool wrote:Sorry to pursue my frustration on this thread, but:
Do you know? That sound like richfool's description of me. Well, if he does not want to read my posts he just has to put them on his ignore list. He of course will be the loser since he will miss my words of wisdom (not) but he does not know that until he reads them. That will be his problem not mine.

Dod

....The other way round would work for me. If you, Dod, would please not read, ignore, or more importantly not reply to my posts, that would resolve most of my frustrations. I can cope without your wisdom, thanks.


Could not possibly do that. I would not know what I was missing!

All the best

Dod

That would tend to support my thinking that your responses and posts are all too often mischievous and provocative, if not trolling. What's that expression about idle hands?

dealtn
Lemon Half
Posts: 6072
Joined: November 21st, 2016, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 441 times
Been thanked: 2324 times

Re: A whinge

#441118

Postby dealtn » September 9th, 2021, 10:02 pm

Gengulphus wrote:And more widely, those rules about being respectful are site-wide. Remarks about HYPers not tolerating "blasphemy", about the "HYP Taliban", about "backslapping HYP adherents", about "HYP zealots", etc, do not show respect for those site users who are HYPers, no matter which board they're posted on - and don't assume that just because it's not a HYP board, there aren't HYPers reading it. By posting such remarks, people are not only breaking site rules, but also contributing to a general feeling of unpleasantness on the site that is liable to drive people away.


Absolutely, but at least recognise this is 2-way.

The first reference to "Investment Strategy Taliban" was actually made by referring to "Total Return Taliban", not on HYPP, and reported to moderators with little effect. More generally much of the issues you refer to, and the concerns about moderation, aren't taking place on HYPP, and aren't about the HYP strategy. Much of it is about other strategies that don't appear to have either the profile or protection of HYP.

I get that moderation is difficult, isn't perfect, and generally adds more to the site than it subtracts. That doesn't mean moderation, and moderators, are exempt from responsibility, and discussion here on "Improve the Recipe".

In recent days, it appears there has been an expression by some that moderation mistakes may have been made (and why wouldn't there be - it's a difficult volunteer job undertaken by humans after all?). The result though appears to have been very little acknowledgement of those potential mistakes, or a view to take it seriously that both long standing contributors from all sides, and newbies and lurkers, are finding it a less attractive place to visit and contribute to. That to me is the bigger concern, rather than any individual spat.

This Board specifically has a tag of "input on how the site works or improvement you would like to see". I would like to think most here, including moderators and site owners, would like to see less revelations from individuals about how the site isn't working for them, and the departure of people. Consistency of moderation, and not locking down threads unnecessarily, is a part of that. It won't ever be perfect, but is it possible that a confirmation is made the owners are acknowledging there may be an issue here, and some thought is being to be given on how things might improve?

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: A whinge

#441119

Postby Dod101 » September 9th, 2021, 10:06 pm

richfool wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
richfool wrote:Sorry to pursue my frustration on this thread, but:

....The other way round would work for me. If you, Dod, would please not read, ignore, or more importantly not reply to my posts, that would resolve most of my frustrations. I can cope without your wisdom, thanks.


Could not possibly do that. I would not know what I was missing!

All the best

Dod

That would tend to support my thinking that your responses and posts are all too often mischievous and provocative, if not trolling. What's that expression about idle hands?


I do not know what the expression trolling means but for Heaven's sake, just lighten up! Some lighthearted stirring surely does no harm and frankly you set yourself up for it. I have no serious difference with you. If you have with me then just put me on your ignore list. I will not be offended because apart from anything else i will not know.

Dod

absolutezero
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1505
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 542 times
Been thanked: 653 times

Re: A whinge

#441120

Postby absolutezero » September 9th, 2021, 10:08 pm

dealtn wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:And more widely, those rules about being respectful are site-wide. Remarks about HYPers not tolerating "blasphemy", about the "HYP Taliban", about "backslapping HYP adherents", about "HYP zealots", etc, do not show respect for those site users who are HYPers, no matter which board they're posted on - and don't assume that just because it's not a HYP board, there aren't HYPers reading it. By posting such remarks, people are not only breaking site rules, but also contributing to a general feeling of unpleasantness on the site that is liable to drive people away.


Absolutely, but at least recognise this is 2-way.

The first reference to "Investment Strategy Taliban" was actually made by referring to "Total Return Taliban", not on HYPP, and reported to moderators with little effect. More generally much of the issues you refer to, and the concerns about moderation, aren't taking place on HYPP, and aren't about the HYP strategy. Much of it is about other strategies that don't appear to have either the profile or protection of HYP.

I get that moderation is difficult, isn't perfect, and generally adds more to the site than it subtracts. That doesn't mean moderation, and moderators, are exempt from responsibility, and discussion here on "Improve the Recipe".

In recent days, it appears there has been an expression by some that moderation mistakes may have been made (and why wouldn't there be - it's a difficult volunteer job undertaken by humans after all?). The result though appears to have been very little acknowledgement of those potential mistakes, or a view to take it seriously that both long standing contributors from all sides, and newbies and lurkers, are finding it a less attractive place to visit and contribute to. That to me is the bigger concern, rather than any individual spat.

This Board specifically has a tag of "input on how the site works or improvement you would like to see". I would like to think most here, including moderators and site owners, would like to see less revelations from individuals about how the site isn't working for them, and the departure of people. Consistency of moderation, and not locking down threads unnecessarily, is a part of that. It won't ever be perfect, but is it possible that a confirmation is made the owners are acknowledging there may be an issue here, and some thought is being to be given on how things might improve?

Spot on.

XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 12636
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Been thanked: 2608 times

Re: A whinge

#441122

Postby XFool » September 9th, 2021, 10:11 pm

Lootman wrote:I am not sure what you mean by "blow up too seriously". In the end it is just words and, absent some kind of lawsuit for libel, the harm done is mainly just to egos and pride.

I remember, not so long ago, we did have that threat waved around on here by one litigiously inclined ex-TLF poster.

XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 12636
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Been thanked: 2608 times

Re: A whinge

#441123

Postby XFool » September 9th, 2021, 10:16 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:That's not all that's happening. My post agreeing with you and saying about ignoring a poster (that I actually did not name) has disappeared without trace. I am sorry, this has gone too far. It's my turn to say that's me done.

Admin will get a PM in a minute requesting that my account and posts are deleted is next.

Ahem! I am sorry to have to draw your attention to Rule... (22?)

viewtopic.php?p=360215#p360215

Have a nice day!


Return to “Room 102 - Site Issues, Complaints & General Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests