ULTRA-PROCESSED PEOPLE

[GrahamPlatt]

https://erictopol.substack.com/p/the-sc ... rs#details

“there was this moment talking to a friend in Brazil called Fernanda Rabu. She's an incredible scientist, and she was the one who said, it's not food, Chris. It's an industrially produced edible substance.”

[Mike4]

https://erictopol.substack.com/p/the-science-behind-food-and-dangers#details

“there was this moment talking to a friend in Brazil called Fernanda Rabu. She's an incredible scientist, and she was the one who said, it's not food, Chris. It's an industrially produced edible substance.”

I bought the book two or three months ago (and started a thread here about it IIRC!) and maybe it's my lack of concentration but I've found it almost impossible to read. The fundamental idea is that most food in the supermarkets is industrially designed and marketed using the same methods as most other consumer goods. Designed and constructed using whatever it takes to maximise sales and profits. Make it sweeter, nicer-looking, more energy-dense, nicer-tasting, better mouth feel, attractively packaged and people will buy it and prefer it. Nutritional gets forgotten or ignored in the focus on selling more of it and it ends up actually being really bad for us as the over-riding focus in making it is on getting us to buy and eat ever more of it in just the same way as Apple wants us to consume more iPhones.

Look around in the supermarket. Almost nothing for sale outside of the vegetable isle is not factory processed in some way and artificially packed in cardboard, plastic or metal and heavily marketed to the extent that its value as healthy food to cook and eat is incidental at best.

The book for me seems to expand this perceptive observation out to fill a couple of hundred pages but I've given up trying to read it, finding my attention drifts and I'm back on TLF as it's more interesting!

[88V8]

“there was this moment talking to a friend in Brazil called Fernanda Rabu. She's an incredible scientist, and she was the one who said, it's not food, Chris. It's an industrially produced edible substance.”

The fundamental idea is that most food in the supermarkets is industrially designed and marketed using the same methods as most other consumer goods.
Look around in the supermarket. Almost nothing for sale outside of the vegetable aisle is not factory processed in some way and artificially packed in cardboard, plastic or metal and heavily marketed to the extent that its value as healthy food to cook and eat is incidental at best.

Vegetables, fruit, fresh meat fresh fish, all available in the supermarket. And sheep hearts, liver, kidney, all dead cheap.
Unfortunately 'big food' is an industry that leeches on laziness and stupidity.
It is perfectly possible to eat healthily and inexpensively, and largely avoid processed food, but one has to plan, shop, cook, in an intelligent manner, and yes, one has to deny oneself some things such as Pringles and hobnobs (in my case), but for many people all that seems to be a problem.

I do wish govt would do more, but they are afraid of making themselves unpopular by demonising our treats, and so we pay the cost through the NHS.
Otoh, pension schemes benefit through reduced life expectancy, so it's not all bad.

V8

[servodude]

The fundamental idea is that most food in the supermarkets is industrially designed and marketed using the same methods as most other consumer goods.
Look around in the supermarket. Almost nothing for sale outside of the vegetable aisle is not factory processed in some way and artificially packed in cardboard, plastic or metal and heavily marketed to the extent that its value as healthy food to cook and eat is incidental at best.

Vegetables, fruit, fresh meat fresh fish, all available in the supermarket. And sheep hearts, liver, kidney, all dead cheap.
Unfortunately 'big food' is an industry that leeches on laziness and stupidity.
It is perfectly possible to eat healthily and inexpensively, and largely avoid processed food, but one has to plan, shop, cook, in an intelligent manner, and yes, one has to deny oneself some things such as Pringles and hobnobs (in my case), but for many people all that seems to be a problem.

I do wish govt would do more, but they are afraid of making themselves unpopular by demonising our treats, and so we pay the cost through the NHS.
Otoh, pension schemes benefit through reduced life expectancy, so it's not all bad.

V8

It makes no sense to me that this processed nonsense is somehow cheaper than "proper food" - but it appears to be; or at least that's the perception, given all I've heard about folk not being able to afford to eat healthily.
If there seems to be an acceptance that we can tolerate punitive taxes on booze and fags I don't see why this stuff can't be leveraged to raise revenue and nudge behaviour

[UncleEbenezer]

When I lived in Italy I encountered a mediterranean diet, widely said to be healthy. Italians consume a lot of sugar, but the huge one is salt, of which they consume so much I had trouble eating much of their food. Things said to be terribly bad for us.

I can't help thinking processed food is merely the latest faddish obsession, and the answer remains as ever all things in moderation. Though some of the new villains are indeed things I'd avoid.

[swill453]

It makes no sense to me that this processed nonsense is somehow cheaper than "proper food" - but it appears to be; or at least that's the perception

If I was to make a nice cake, it'd contain fresh free-range eggs. However most mass-produced cakes will be made with imported liquid egg from battery caged hens (outlawed here more than ten years ago).

For example.

Scott.

[James]

I'd suggest reading up a bit on food poverty, and science, before jumping on the anti-UPF bandwagon. It's a bit hard getting your organic Waitrose tomatoes when you live in a food desert on a sink estate.
https://www.the-angry-chef.com/blog is a good place to start.
The van Tulleken twins appear to have sacrificed medical credibility for media celebrity.

[ReformedCharacter]

I'd suggest reading up a bit on food poverty, and science, before jumping on the anti-UPF bandwagon.

I'm not sure your logic quite stands there. There does seem to be some good science, Zoe for example, that shows the poor health outcomes from UPF. I don't deny that food poverty exists but I'm not convinced that lack of money causes people to consume UPF. There are a number of other factors at play.

It's a bit hard getting your organic Waitrose tomatoes when you live in a food desert on a sink estate.

True, but you don't need to shop at Waitrose to eat healthily. Having said that, food untreated with pesticides is generally more expensive than that that is, but the effects of permitted levels of pesticide on human health probably needs more research to ascertain health risks.

https://www.the-angry-chef.com/blog is a good place to start.
The van Tulleken twins appear to have sacrificed medical credibility for media celebrity.

What is it about the van Tulleken's work that you think lacks credibility? You only need to look at the widespread levels of obesity and diabetes to see that something is obviously wrong with the food that people eat. What would you say are the causes for that?

RC

[Lootman]

Vegetables, fruit, fresh meat fresh fish, all available in the supermarket. And sheep hearts, liver, kidney, all dead cheap.
Unfortunately 'big food' is an industry that leeches on laziness and stupidity.
It is perfectly possible to eat healthily and inexpensively, and largely avoid processed food, but one has to plan, shop, cook, in an intelligent manner, and yes, one has to deny oneself some things such as Pringles and hobnobs (in my case), but for many people all that seems to be a problem.

I do wish govt would do more, but they are afraid of making themselves unpopular by demonising our treats, and so we pay the cost through the NHS.
Otoh, pension schemes benefit through reduced life expectancy, so it's not all bad.

It makes no sense to me that this processed nonsense is somehow cheaper than "proper food" - but it appears to be; or at least that's the perception, given all I've heard about folk not being able to afford to eat healthily.

Take a walk down the high street of an average town in the UK and you quickly notice that most of the takeaway food shops are either burger joints, pizza places, fried chicken joints or kebab houses. They are mostly frequented by the poor (and the drunk). It is convenient, cheap and it fills you up.

Compared to that Chinese and Indian takeaways are luxury.

Then visit the poorer parts of town. Any number of corner convenience shops who make most of their money from booze. But you will be lucky to find any fresh food there.

Then go to Waitrose and check out the price of organic stuff.

[Urbandreamer]

I've taken to making bread.

However have any of you any concept of the science and processing involved in just the flour in bread?
Let us start with wheat. You do know that it use to be about five foot high?
What is grown today has been selectively chosen to be dwarf. Then there is the choice of verity.
The same type of wheat is not used to make the flour used in pies as in bread.
Then we come to "milling".
Have you any idea of the complexity involved in that?
No it's not ground between the mill stones, even if you buy stone ground flour.
What actually happens is that the berry is undergoes sheering foresees. Just like when you rip paper.

And that is just the flour.

The type of bread that I make is sourdough. The joking instructions are, first catch your yeast.
I tried and tried that.
In the end I bought some from someone else and lovingly keep it alive.

However other's who make homemade bread use yeast that was caught generations ago and carefully selected.
It's now farmed in huge vats. Carefully dried, powdered, mixed with nutrients that the yeast needs then formed into tiny balls before being packaged.

Now I invite you all, obtain some wheat berries and try to make your own flour.
Catch your own yeast.
Add fluoridated chlorinated water, or some from a puddle, and try and make bread.

Sure there are many examples of over processed food, but I for one am REALLY glad that they test the wheat for moisture and dry it if too moist.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... -poisoning

Ergot is a fungus that can grow on grains such as rye and wheat. Symptoms of ergot poisoning vary but include dizziness, convulsions, and psychosis. Some researchers believe ergot poisoning played a key role in several historical events.

[88V8]

I've taken to making bread.

We have a Panasonic bread machine acquired in 2006 from my mother when she died. It's over 20 years old. Every two days it turns out a loaf... leaving aside the days when we go to the farmers' market and buy from Salt, maybe once in three weeks.
The mix of flour has quite an effect on the end result.

I forget the cost per loaf, but the machine has paid for itself many many times over.
And none of the additives one finds in supermarket bread.
Again, however, with or without a machine, bread making needs a degree of intelligent effort, plus some precise measurement, especially when it comes to doling out the yeast.

V8

[Lootman]

Now I invite you all, obtain some wheat berries and try to make your own flour. Catch your own yeast. Add fluoridated chlorinated water, or some from a puddle, and try and make bread.

with or without a machine, bread making needs a degree of intelligent effort, plus some precise measurement, especially when it comes to doling out the yeast.

All great, but I really cannot be assed, when my local baker can do this for a quid a loaf. Life is too short.

In other news, I do not brew my own beer. And no longer grow veggies.

[kempiejon]

And none of the additives one finds in supermarket bread.
Again, however, with or without a machine, bread making needs a degree of intelligent effort, plus some precise measurement,

I agree, I make bread less often these days, it takes some skill, time and attention and those cash and time poor lured by the UPF of the title will just pick a loaf from the shelves. Recently I have become interested in what's in the factory bread I buy, hopefully I will free up some time and start baking more often. I had an old bread maker but prefer working by hand so donated it.

It is perfectly possible to eat healthily and inexpensively, and largely avoid processed food, but one has to plan, shop, cook, in an intelligent manner, and yes, one has to deny oneself some

I think a lot of the UPF is easy, convenient and heavily marketed. Look at the branding on some of the major names on the shelves. Jamie Oliver even has signature couscous and lentils at £10 per kg... wtbh?

[UncleEbenezer]

It makes no sense to me that this processed nonsense is somehow cheaper than "proper food" - but it appears to be; or at least that's the perception, given all I've heard about folk not being able to afford to eat healthily.

Take a walk down the high street of an average town in the UK and you quickly notice that most of the takeaway food shops are either burger joints, pizza places, fried chicken joints or kebab houses. They are mostly frequented by the poor (and the drunk). It is convenient, cheap and it fills you up.

Myth there. Takeaway food is not at all cheap if you're poor. Twenty years ago, a single burger, pizza, chicken nugget or kebab would've eaten several weeks of my food budget!

Then go to Waitrose and check out the price of organic stuff.

Bargepole. But I can go to the wholefood shop or the supermarket and buy lentils, chickpeas and the like for peanuts.

[Lootman]

Take a walk down the high street of an average town in the UK and you quickly notice that most of the takeaway food shops are either burger joints, pizza places, fried chicken joints or kebab houses. They are mostly frequented by the poor (and the drunk). It is convenient, cheap and it fills you up.

Myth there. Takeaway food is not at all cheap if you're poor. Twenty years ago, a single burger, pizza, chicken nugget or kebab would've eaten several weeks of my food budget!

You are willing to invest time in shopping for healthy stuff and cooking it. Many poor people are time-deprived because of the long hours they work. So they want fast food.

This also explains why it is the supposedly poor and under-nourished who tend to be obese.

So yes, an affluent and privileged retired professional and Cambridge graduate like you has the time to cook lentils and kale. Most poor folks do not.

[servodude]

It makes no sense to me that this processed nonsense is somehow cheaper than "proper food" - but it appears to be; or at least that's the perception

If I was to make a nice cake, it'd contain fresh free-range eggs. However most mass-produced cakes will be made with imported liquid egg from battery caged hens (outlawed here more than ten years ago).

For example.

Scott.

indeed - and that's why cakes were special occasion things ( literally named for things like birthdays, weddings, christmas and the jaffa festival)

though I was thinking more of "meals" than "treats" (not to denigrate anyone that considers a muffin "breakfast")

I will confess to occasionally using dried pasta - but I find it so much better to start with eggs and flour and consider it worth the extra 20 minutes to knock out a meal (convincing myself I save a bit of time in the cooking )
- not sure I could bring myself microwave a lasagne though (no matter how convenient)

I guess my ill made point was more that given the effort involved in processing I find it hard to comprehend the scales of operation, marketing trickery and technical wizardry at play that can lead to it being sold cheaper than the headline ingredients - bone cannons aren't cheap!

[UncleEbenezer]

I guess my ill made point was more that given the effort involved in processing I find it hard to comprehend the scales of operation, marketing trickery and technical wizardry at play that can lead to it being sold cheaper than the headline ingredients - bone cannons aren't cheap!

Pure speculation here.

Economies of scale, coupled with shelf life. The more packaged food is very predictable: you can plan to produce and stock very close to exactly what the punters will buy. With fresh ingredients there's more uncertainty, leading to waste and occasional gaps on the shelves.

It's not just highly processed food, either. Some years back I compared buying supermarket freshly-squeezed orange juice with buying the oranges and putting them through a juicer. Even when I could get the (Moroccan) oranges that gave the most delicious taste without a premium price to match, I wasn't making a saving.

[Urbandreamer]

If I was to make a nice cake, it'd contain fresh free-range eggs. However most mass-produced cakes will be made with imported liquid egg from battery caged hens (outlawed here more than ten years ago).

For example.

Scott.

Don't get me started and don't mention cakes.

Oh, you did.

Ok folks, heard of self raising flour? It's a convenience product that owes much to the chemist industry.
Much used in cakes and pastries, scones or muffins anyone?

Right so what is it and why don't I have it in my kitchen? Well it's plain flour... and baking powder. I have both.

So whats "baking powder"? Well it's the industrially produced chemical sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) mixed with a similarly produced dry acid.
When combined with water it reacts producing carbon dioxide, making cakes and scones rise.

Sorry, but if you eat modern cakes, scones, puff pastries etc you can only do so thanks to the chemical industry and food processing.

Before sodium bicarbonate "cakes" were either made with yeast or beaten egg white to give some rise. I do invite you to try to find such recipes though.

Even Victoria sponge, which originally didn't, now uses such a chemical in almost all recipes.
Here is Mary Berry's recipe from a well known TV baking program.
https://thegreatbritishbakeoff.co.uk/re ... ia-sponge/

Here is a link to "how it's made" about sodium bicarbonate.
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Baking-Soda.html
Interesting to look at the processes involved in my simple store cupboard item.

[CliffEdge]

Interesting article on this very subject in this month's Which? magazine. Read it. Will read it again.

Quote, "it's unhelpful to demonise all UPFs".

Probably will now buy more so called ultra processed food as much of it seems quite nutritious, e.g. baked beans, fish fingers, pasta sauce jars, Weetabix etc.

(Fish finger sandwiches especially useful for Christmas lunch.)

[Mike4]

Probably will now buy more so called ultra processed food as much of it seems quite nutritious, e.g. baked beans, fish fingers, pasta sauce jars, Weetabix etc.

Missing the point by a country mile. You obviously haven't read the book!

Yes much of it actually IS nutritious but nutritional content is not what it's all about. Its all the other stuff they put in it as well that's the problem.