Gas prices

[GrahamPlatt]

Didn’t quite know where to put this…

Attention - lots of cookies. Best opened in private tab : https://news.sky.com/story/the-surreal- ... t-12614797

And now : https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status ... 4748035073

“Combine that with meeting industry's demand for a new more frequent 'every 3mth' price cap change -

Carefully calibrated for the first 3mths to include SIX months of wholesale prices (so the price factors in the highest wholesale rates in history) so firms don't miss out...”

[elkay]

What caught my eye was a news report saying that "gas prices could go up 4 times a year"...no mention that they could also go down 4 times a year. Typical attention grabbing...

[UncleEbenezer]

The price cap was a terrible idea when Ed Miliband and Caroline Flint first proposed it, and remained a terrible idea when the government adopted it. Even without the wholesale price rise that killed off a whole load of race-to-the-bottom suppliers, it inevitably left suppliers hostage to hedge funds.

If there was ever a valid argument for it, that would be the brokenness of the existing market. But even in that context it's a case of two wrongs utterly failing to make a right.

[servodude]

If there was ever a valid argument for it, that would be the brokenness of the existing market. But even in that context it's a case of two wrongs utterly failing to make a right.

I can see an argument for absorbing the shocks in supply cost (for things that are essential/critical services) before they hit the end customer as it makes it easier to keep everything else rolling along smoothly

That doesn't meant you take your eye off it and ignore stuff that needs addressing
And certainly doesn't mean you should tolerate irresponsible practices by suppliers/middle-twunts
- the "race-to-the-bottom" clustercuss has seemed quite apparent for some time (just don't look there it might be someone-else's problem by the time it becomes known)

- sd

[AF62]

Didn’t quite know where to put this…

Attention - lots of cookies. Best opened in private tab : https://news.sky.com/story/the-surreal- ... t-12614797

Yes you can see the impact here with Octopus's Gas Tracker tariff that charges the daily wholesale price plus a markup (with a cap to stop the Texas issue) -

https://energy.guylipman.com/sm/gastracker

The price cap was a terrible idea when Ed Miliband and Caroline Flint first proposed it, and remained a terrible idea when the government adopted it. Even without the wholesale price rise that killed off a whole load of race-to-the-bottom suppliers, it inevitably left suppliers hostage to hedge funds.

If there was ever a valid argument for it, that would be the brokenness of the existing market. But even in that context it's a case of two wrongs utterly failing to make a right.

The industry brought the price cap on themselves by being 'pink marshmallows' when it came to dealing with those who didn't change energy companies every year and were then exploited by the energy companies who overcharged them on their 'standard' tariffs.

The price cap prices were never intended to be the cheapest tariffs or to protect consumers from sudden price rises, and were not intended for the majority of customers to be on a 'price cap' tariff - just a smallish proportion of vulnerable customers who were not in a position to keep swapping energy providers.

That the price cap has now bitten the energy companies in the backside when energy prices skyrocketed and means that virtually all of their customers are on it and the energy companies are losing money - well pass me the world's smallest violin. Perhaps if they hadn't been 'pink marshmallows' in the first place then the energy cap would never have existed.

[staffordian]

What caught my eye was a news report saying that "gas prices could go up 4 times a year"...no mention that they could also go down 4 times a year. Typical attention grabbing...

Not attention grabbing, IMHO.

Quite accurate.

The cap is simply that. If wholesale prices fall, competition should bring prices down, it only takes one supplier to cut prices to attract customers and others will follow suit sooner or later. And that can happen anytime, not when caps are reviewed or changed.

But if the cap is reviewed quarterly, there is clearly a potential for four increases a year rather than two.

[AF62]

What caught my eye was a news report saying that "gas prices could go up 4 times a year"...no mention that they could also go down 4 times a year. Typical attention grabbing...

Not attention grabbing, IMHO.

Quite accurate.

The cap is simply that. If wholesale prices fall, competition should bring prices down, it only takes one supplier to cut prices to attract customers and others will follow suit sooner or later. And that can happen anytime, not when caps are reviewed or changed.

But if the cap is reviewed quarterly, there is clearly a potential for four increases a year rather than two.

That assumes the people the cap was intended for (those unable or not comfortable ‘chasing the market’) suddenly change their ways and find the ability to do that and don’t just sit with the supplier they have been with on their standard tariff for the last 20 years.

[staffordian]

What caught my eye was a news report saying that "gas prices could go up 4 times a year"...no mention that they could also go down 4 times a year. Typical attention grabbing...

Not attention grabbing, IMHO.

Quite accurate.

The cap is simply that. If wholesale prices fall, competition should bring prices down, it only takes one supplier to cut prices to attract customers and others will follow suit sooner or later. And that can happen anytime, not when caps are reviewed or changed.

But if the cap is reviewed quarterly, there is clearly a potential for four increases a year rather than two.

That assumes the people the cap was intended for (those unable or not comfortable ‘chasing the market’) suddenly change their ways and find the ability to do that and don’t just sit with the supplier they have been with on their standard tariff for the last 20 years.

True, but if they've not yet woken up to the reality of energy prices, and the potential benefits of shopping around, then perhaps they deserve to have four increases a year...

[AF62]

What caught my eye was a news report saying that "gas prices could go up 4 times a year"...no mention that they could also go down 4 times a year. Typical attention grabbing...

Not attention grabbing, IMHO.

Quite accurate.

The cap is simply that. If wholesale prices fall, competition should bring prices down, it only takes one supplier to cut prices to attract customers and others will follow suit sooner or later. And that can happen anytime, not when caps are reviewed or changed.

But if the cap is reviewed quarterly, there is clearly a potential for four increases a year rather than two.

That assumes the people the cap was intended for (those unable or not comfortable ‘chasing the market’) suddenly change their ways and find the ability to do that and don’t just sit with the supplier they have been with on their standard tariff for the last 20 years.

True, but if they've not yet woken up to the reality of energy prices, and the potential benefits of shopping around, then perhaps they deserve to have four increases a year...

So you think the 90 year olds surviving on a basic state pension and who have no access to the internet and no young relatives to help them shop around should be the ones who are charged the most and deserve the four increases.

Hmm…

As before, the price cap was introduced not to protect the majority but to protect the minority who *had* been exploited by the energy companies.

You and I are perfectly aware that we should shop around and are aware how to do it. Would your mother or grandmother? And that is just one group; there are many other groups of vulnerable people who deserve protection from the morally bankrupt ways most energy companies operate to exploit their customers.

[XFool]

The cap is simply that. If wholesale prices fall, competition should bring prices down, it only takes one supplier to cut prices to attract customers and others will follow suit sooner or later. And that can happen anytime, not when caps are reviewed or changed.

But if the cap is reviewed quarterly, there is clearly a potential for four increases a year rather than two.

That assumes the people the cap was intended for (those unable or not comfortable ‘chasing the market’) suddenly change their ways and find the ability to do that and don’t just sit with the supplier they have been with on their standard tariff for the last 20 years.

Indeed. I guess I am (almost*) one such person. I really do not see why I should spend my time gumming around just to keep supplied with my utility services. They are, of course, essential - so is breathing - and I would prefer to pay a reasonable price. After all breathing is free (so far).

But I don't want to have to fuss around renegotiating some "deal" just to keep the lights on - anymore than I want to with breathing.

Then again, you can only get these "deals" by paying by DD - which I prefer not to do.

Anyway, the whole thing is an obvious nonsense! Typical pseudo 'market capitalism' (therefore 'good') claptrap. There is only one kind of electricity or gas in the UK (or anywhere else). It costs what it costs, these 'cheap' companies are not offering an alternative sort of energy - because there is none. No 'green electrons'. It is, IMO, all phoney.

Surely we have all recently seen this adequately demonstrated? It is just a mechanism for transferring money from some groups of people to other groups of people over the long term. Oh wait! Silly me... It IS contemporary 'market capitalism'.

* Recently dumped EoN after, without warning, they forced their monthly billing account - EoN Next - onto me.

[UncleEbenezer]

After all breathing is free (so far).

Up to a point, Lord Copper.

But air fit to breathe is a luxury that's far from universally available. And if you live somewhere heavily polluted, chances are there's a reason - like it's what you can afford.

[Dod101]

The price cap was intended to stop energy companies from exploiting vulnerable people, not to subsidize everyone . There is no price cap on the price of my oil for my boiler. I pay the going rate on the day. The same should happen with gas and electricity.

If people shop around (as I do for my oil) for electricity or gas they should be the ones bearing the consequences for the supplier going bust not the general set of customers. I am glad that I use relatively little electricity and no gas and am well out of it. If suppliers of electricity and gas have not bought forward to ensure supplies at their quoted prices they should not be in business, and in times of prices rising will go bust if they are insufficiently capitalized to carry the costs, but that is a separate issue.

The price cap is a very blunt instrument, helping those who live in mansions as well as the poor widow or orphan. Those who genuinely cannot afford to pay for gas or electricity should be helped through the benefits system.

Dod

[Mike4]

But I don't want to have to fuss around renegotiating some "deal" just to keep the lights on - anymore than I want to with breathing.

Nor me. I just want to use the leccy, get billed quarterly for it and pay the bills once I've checked they are correct, as I've done for decades. Near impossible to achieve nowadays it seems. Now I have to do it monthly.

Then again, you can only get these "deals" by paying by DD - which I prefer not to do.

Also access to 'deals' almost exclusively depends on you agreeing to have a smart meter fitted, so they can really rip you off with peak demand time price rises should they so choose, and in extremis cut you off at the click of a mouse button in some control centre somewhere.

Anyway, the whole thing is an obvious nonsense! Typical pseudo 'market capitalism' (therefore 'good') claptrap. There is only one kind of electricity or gas in the UK (or anywhere else). It costs what it costs, these 'cheap' companies are not offering an alternative sort of energy - because there is none. No 'green electrons'. It is, IMO, all phoney.

Yes ^^^This^^^

* Recently dumped EoN after, without warning, they forced their monthly billing account - EoN Next - onto me.

Oh who did you change to please? Did you find someone doing quarterly accounting and no smart meter?!

[Dod101]

But I don't want to have to fuss around renegotiating some "deal" just to keep the lights on - anymore than I want to with breathing.

Nor me. I just want to use the leccy, get billed quarterly for it and pay the bills once I've checked they are correct, as I've done for decades. Near impossible to achieve nowadays it seems. Now I have to do it monthly.

Then again, you can only get these "deals" by paying by DD - which I prefer not to do.

Also access to 'deals' almost exclusively depends on you agreeing to have a smart meter fitted, so they can really rip you off with peak demand time price rises should they so choose, and in extremis cut you off at the click of a mouse button in some control centre somewhere.

Anyway, the whole thing is an obvious nonsense! Typical pseudo 'market capitalism' (therefore 'good') claptrap. There is only one kind of electricity or gas in the UK (or anywhere else). It costs what it costs, these 'cheap' companies are not offering an alternative sort of energy - because there is none. No 'green electrons'. It is, IMO, all phoney.

Yes ^^^This^^^

* Recently dumped EoN after, without warning, they forced their monthly billing account - EoN Next - onto me.

Oh who did you change to please? Did you find someone doing quarterly accounting and no smart meter?!

I have a smart meter and it has so far caused me no inconvenience; in fact just the opposite. I now get accurate bills every quarter rather than having a bill based on an estimate and having to provide a meter reading to get a correct bill. I also pay quarterly in arrears by variable Direct Debit. Works very well.

Dod

PS Just realised this thread seems to have morphed into a general discussion about utility prices not just gas. At least there was reference to keeping the lights on so I suppose we are talking about electricity.

[Mike4]

PS Just realised this thread seems to have morphed into a general discussion about utility prices not just gas. At least there was reference to keeping the lights on so I suppose we are talking about electricity.

I had gas lights in the boat I used to live on....

[XFool]

* Recently dumped EoN after, without warning, they forced their monthly billing account - EoN Next - onto me.

Oh who did you change to please? Did you find someone doing quarterly accounting and no smart meter?!

British Gas, as I had an existing 'ordinary' quarterly account with them for gas. Of course they are now nagging me about the need to "replace" my old electricity meter and "we can replace your gas meter at the same time".

[tea42]

Our gas Aga costs £7.50 a day to run. Its going off at the end of the month making way for a tabletop electric oven and a two burner induction hob with water heating from our existing immersion heater - total cost £200. Good investment IMO!

Looked at getting energy from elsewhere but they are all much more expensive than our supplier Utility Warehouse.

T42

[redsturgeon]

Our gas Aga costs £7.50 a day to run. Its going off at the end of the month making way for a tabletop electric oven and a two burner induction hob with water heating from our existing immersion heater - total cost £200. Good investment IMO!

Looked at getting energy from elsewhere but they are all much more expensive than our supplier Utility Warehouse.

T42

Money back in less than a month!

[Dod101]

* Recently dumped EoN after, without warning, they forced their monthly billing account - EoN Next - onto me.

Oh who did you change to please? Did you find someone doing quarterly accounting and no smart meter?!

British Gas, as I had an existing 'ordinary' quarterly account with them for gas. Of course they are now nagging me about the need to "replace" my old electricity meter and "we can replace your gas meter at the same time".

And why not?

Dod

[Dod101]

Our gas Aga costs £7.50 a day to run. Its going off at the end of the month making way for a tabletop electric oven and a two burner induction hob with water heating from our existing immersion heater - total cost £200. Good investment IMO!

Looked at getting energy from elsewhere but they are all much more expensive than our supplier Utility Warehouse.

T42

Not sure what you mean by a tabletop electric oven. And if you are going for an induction hob, get one with four plates not two (and they do not burn!) Cost £200? What is your secret?

Dod