"Special relationship"

[Leothebear]

Funny how it always seems to be one way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-51228262

[Arborbridge]

Funny how it always seems to be one way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-51228262

Consistent with putting America first.


Arb.

[servodude]

Funny how it always seems to be one way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-51228262

It's not one way, it's just asymmetric.

Remora and Sharks have a "special", indeed symbiotic, relationship
- it's definitely not one way
- but it's definitely not equal

You get to hang around with the big guy and eat his scraps; he gets a guy to eat his scraps.

-sd

[redsturgeon]

Seems that some are surprised that the US feels it is OK for their citizens to go to other countries and kill innocent people with impunity.

John

[panamagold]

Funny how it always seems to be one way.

Incorrect statement:

Gary_McKinnon - 2012

Laurie Love - 2018

[servodude]

Funny how it always seems to be one way.

Incorrect statement:

Gary_McKinnon - 2012

Laurie Love - 2018

Because playing with computers and driving over someone are the same thing; couldn't be more similar.

-sd

[didds]

I don't know how this all works but...

is it possible to request extradiction warrants from 3rd party countries such that IF person X ever enters those other countries they can be arrested in those other countries and extradited to the UK?

eg the UK would apply for extradition for this woman to Canada, Mexico, all european nations, australia, NZ etc etc etc ... in effect pretty much imprisoning her in the US and also I guess suppressing her husband's career as an ambassador(depending on the success of those extradition requests I guess!)

didds

[Lootman]

Seems that some are surprised that the US feels it is OK for their citizens to go to other countries and kill innocent people with impunity.

The US does not. The key issue here is diplomatic immunity. If a British diplomat accidentally killed an American in Virginia, what would the outcome be?

Yes, I know she wasn't a diplomat; only her husband was. But DI applies to the families of diplomats, by convention.

I don't like this case at all, and think she should return here voluntarily. But then if you faced a decade in prison in some foreign land, what would you do if you could?

Seems a plea deal that involves no prison time, or allows a sentence to be served in the US, might be the best solution.

[servodude]

Because playing with computers and driving over someone are the same thing; couldn't be more similar.

True. But on the other hand, the driver of the car didn't mean to run the guy over. On the other hand the hackers, well, like to hack other peoples stuff...

Yes you're very correct.
I should have said something along the lines of them not being extraditable offences where they were "committed".
- even with a "special relationship"

-sd

[servodude]

Seems that some are surprised that the US feels it is OK for their citizens to go to other countries and kill innocent people with impunity.

The US does not. The key issue here is diplomatic immunity. If a British diplomat accidentally killed an American in Virginia, what would the outcome be?

Yes, I know she wasn't a diplomat; only her husband was. But DI applies to the families of diplomats, by convention.

I don't like this case at all, and think she should return here voluntarily. But then if you faced a decade in prison in some foreign land, what would you do if you could?

Seems a plea deal that involves no prison time, or allows a sentence to be served in the US, might be the best solution.

Have you never in your life thought you should do the "right" thing? This hiding behind DI does everyone a disservice.

If she is not at fault she should return and be aquitted.
I couldn't live with myself if it were me; different horses for different missing moral compasses I guess.

-sd

[Lootman]

Seems that some are surprised that the US feels it is OK for their citizens to go to other countries and kill innocent people with impunity.

The US does not. The key issue here is diplomatic immunity. If a British diplomat accidentally killed an American in Virginia, what would the outcome be?

Yes, I know she wasn't a diplomat; only her husband was. But DI applies to the families of diplomats, by convention.

I don't like this case at all, and think she should return here voluntarily. But then if you faced a decade in prison in some foreign land, what would you do if you could?

Seems a plea deal that involves no prison time, or allows a sentence to be served in the US, might be the best solution.

Have you never in your life thought you should do the "right" thing? This hiding behind DI does everyone a disservice.

If she is not at fault she should return and be aquitted. I couldn't live with myself if it were me; different horses for different missing moral compasses I guess.

For me it would depend on the country and how reasonable its legal system was. So if Iran or North Korea wanted you extradited on some charge for which the sentence might be 10 or 15 years, then you probably would not voluntarily go.

Not that the UK's legal system is like theirs. But there has been talk of up to a 14 year sentence. In the US that might appear like cruel and unusual punishment as it was in essence an accident. In the US, absent drunk driving or some special case, people do not go to prison for killing someone in an accident, even if there was negligence. Such things are handled by civil courts and insurance.

So the UK zeal to throw her in prison for a decade could be a factor here, along with DI of course.

[sunnyjoe]

I know she wasn't a diplomat; only her husband was.

I understand he is an NSA official, not a State Dept employee / diplomat.

[redsturgeon]

Seems that some are surprised that the US feels it is OK for their citizens to go to other countries and kill innocent people with impunity.

The US does not. The key issue here is diplomatic immunity. If a British diplomat accidentally killed an American in Virginia, what would the outcome be?

Yes, I know she wasn't a diplomat; only her husband was. But DI applies to the families of diplomats, by convention.

I don't like this case at all, and think she should return here voluntarily. But then if you faced a decade in prison in some foreign land, what would you do if you could?

Seems a plea deal that involves no prison time, or allows a sentence to be served in the US, might be the best solution.

If she cared at all about the family of the dead boy then she would have done the decent thing. I certainly would have stayed to face justice in her situation, wouldn't you? I would not be able to sleep at night or look at my face in the mirror if I ran away.

I think it highly unlikely that she would serve anywhere near a decade in prison here and I'd actually agree that she should not be jailed at all.

In my lifetime I have had three friends who caused the death of another while driving, none were jailed.

On a separate note, given the choice between prison in the Uk or the US I am pretty sure I'd choose the UK.

John

[servodude]

The US does not. The key issue here is diplomatic immunity. If a British diplomat accidentally killed an American in Virginia, what would the outcome be?

Yes, I know she wasn't a diplomat; only her husband was. But DI applies to the families of diplomats, by convention.

I don't like this case at all, and think she should return here voluntarily. But then if you faced a decade in prison in some foreign land, what would you do if you could?

Seems a plea deal that involves no prison time, or allows a sentence to be served in the US, might be the best solution.

Have you never in your life thought you should do the "right" thing? This hiding behind DI does everyone a disservice.

If she is not at fault she should return and be aquitted. I couldn't live with myself if it were me; different horses for different missing moral compasses I guess.

For me it would depend on the country and how reasonable its legal system was. So if Iran or North Korea wanted you extradited on some charge for which the sentence might be 10 or 15 years, then you probably would not voluntarily go.

Not that the UK's legal system is like theirs. But there has been talk of up to a 14 year sentence. In the US that might appear like cruel and unusual punishment as it was in essence an accident. In the US, absent drunk driving or some special case, people do not go to prison for killing someone in an accident, even if there was negligence. Such things are handled by civil courts and insurance.

So the UK zeal to throw her in prison for a decade could be a factor here, along with DI of course.

Talk is one thing; as are max sentences, and hype.
I really don't like how this has been politicised.

I've got good faith in the UK legal system, and I'm a firm believer in if you do the crime, you do the time. This is not a case of travelling with the wrong medicine, not fudding about with computers in a way that's not illegal where you are doing it.

It's not unexpected but it's disappointing.

-sd

[UncleIan]

"I love that word "relationship." Covers all manner of sins, doesn't it? I fear that this has become a bad relationship; a relationship based on the President taking exactly what he wants and casually ignoring all those things that really matter to, erm... Britain. We may be a small country, but we're a great one, too. The country of Shakespeare, Churchill, the Beatles, Sean Connery, Harry Potter. David Beckham's right foot. David Beckham's left foot, come to that. And a friend who bullies us is no longer a friend. And since bullies only respond to strength, from now onward I will be prepared to be much stronger. And the President should be prepared for that."

[Lootman]

I know she wasn't a diplomat; only her husband was.

I understand he is an NSA official, not a State Dept employee / diplomat.

I believe that by agreement such staff also enjoy DI.

If she cared at all about the family of the dead boy then she would have done the decent thing. I certainly would have stayed to face justice in her situation, wouldn't you? I would not be able to sleep at night or look at my face in the mirror if I ran away.

The indecent haste with which she left was unpleasant. Apparently she was advised by the State Department to do so, and they provided a plane for her.

I think it highly unlikely that she would serve anywhere near a decade in prison here and I'd actually agree that she should not be jailed at all. In my lifetime I have had three friends who caused the death of another while driving, none were jailed.

I've had two good friends killed in car accidents and, likewise, no custodial sentences. There is surely room for a compromise sentence here.

On a separate note, given the choice between prison in the Uk or the US I am pretty sure I'd choose the UK.

It is State prisons in the US that are grim. That's where (nearly) all the murderers and rapists go.

Federal prisons, which this would surely be and where the white collar criminals go, are much nicer by all accounts. They are sometimes referred to as "country clubs". Unless you are an illegal alien, in which case you go to a vast soulless facility in somewhere like Texas or Arizona.

[servodude]

I know she wasn't a diplomat; only her husband was.

I understand he is an NSA official, not a State Dept employee / diplomat.

I believe that by agreement such staff also enjoy DI.

If she cared at all about the family of the dead boy then she would have done the decent thing. I certainly would have stayed to face justice in her situation, wouldn't you? I would not be able to sleep at night or look at my face in the mirror if I ran away.

The indecent haste with which she left was unpleasant. Apparently she was advised by the State Department to do so, and they provided a plane for her.

I think it highly unlikely that she would serve anywhere near a decade in prison here and I'd actually agree that she should not be jailed at all. In my lifetime I have had three friends who caused the death of another while driving, none were jailed.

I've had two good friends killed in car accidents and, likewise, no custodial sentences. There is surely room for a compromise sentence here,

On a separate note, given the choice between prison in the Uk or the US I am pretty sure I'd choose the UK.

It is State prisons in the US that are grim. That's where (nearly) all the murderers and rapists go.

Federal prisons, which this would surely be and where the white collar criminals go, are much nicer by all accounts. They are sometimes referred to as "country clubs". Unless you are an illegal alien, in which case you go to a vast soulless facility in somewhere like Texas or Arizona.

Really is a hypocritical cesspool that "land of the free"
- with liberty and justice for all (subject to terms and conditions, connections, available funds, and skin tone)

I love visiting the place, and goodness knows my guitar collection wouldn't be what it was without them; bit if anyone tells you they're an aspiration, walk away.

-sd

[UncleEbenezer]

Seems that some are surprised that the US feels it is OK for their citizens to go to other countries and kill innocent people with impunity.

The US does not. The key issue here is diplomatic immunity. If a British diplomat accidentally killed an American in Virginia, what would the outcome be?

The normal outcome between civilised countries is that they don't enforce diplomatic immunity for regular crimes, or credible accusations thereof. The US has a long history of abusing diplomatic privilege "because it can". Road traffic offences are a classic case in point: the US makes a policy of ignoring the rules at will, whereas other countries say to their embassy staff if you get the ticket, you pay up.

They probably have a fair point here. The media coverage probably means she'd get harsher treatment than most motorists who kill. In fact, arguably she has already had much harsher treatment than most, by virtue of her name being dragged through the press.

[servodude]

Seems that some are surprised that the US feels it is OK for their citizens to go to other countries and kill innocent people with impunity.

The US does not. The key issue here is diplomatic immunity. If a British diplomat accidentally killed an American in Virginia, what would the outcome be?

The normal outcome between civilised countries is that they don't enforce diplomatic immunity for regular crimes, or credible accusations thereof. The US has a long history of abusing diplomatic privilege "because it can". Road traffic offences are a classic case in point: the US makes a policy of ignoring the rules at will, whereas other countries say to their embassy staff if you get the ticket, you pay up.

They probably have a fair point here. The media coverage probably means she'd get harsher treatment than most motorists who kill. In fact, arguably she has already had much harsher treatment than most, by virtue of her name being dragged through the press.

That's a good part of what I'm uncomfortable about.
If you let your country be lead by the ire and vim of the press what will happen? They'll be blaming foreigners for everything! or single mums!

-sd

[swill453]

They probably have a fair point here. The media coverage probably means she'd get harsher treatment than most motorists who kill.

Call me naive, but I'd like to think the judge would be more influenced by the sentencing guidelines (should it come to that) than by the gutter press.

Scott.