"Special relationship"

[swill453]

Call me naive, but I'd like to think the judge would be more influenced by the sentencing guidelines.

Such guidelines in the case of, say, "Causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving" with the qualification being "Careless or inconsiderate driving arising from momentary inattention with no aggravating factors" would give a starting point for sentencing of "Community order (MEDIUM)".

(The offence has a maximum sentence of 5 years imprisonment for maximum aggravating factors)

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp ... ne-Web.pdf

Scott.

[stockton]

If she cared at all about the family of the dead boy then she would have done the decent thing. I certainly would have stayed to face justice in her situation, wouldn't you? I would not be able to sleep at night or look at my face in the mirror if I ran away.

I would not even think about returning to a foreign country in such circumstances. There is nothing to be achieved by the lady facing trial.

[redsturgeon]

If she cared at all about the family of the dead boy then she would have done the decent thing. I certainly would have stayed to face justice in her situation, wouldn't you? I would not be able to sleep at night or look at my face in the mirror if I ran away.

There is nothing to be achieved by the lady facing trial.

Really?

So in any case of causing death by careless driving there is nothing to be achieved by the case coming to trial? Or is it just if the perpetrator is foreign?
Or is it just if they are American? Or if they are a middle aged woman? Or they have DI? Or any combination of those?

I would agree that in this case the woman has probably suffered more because of the wide press coverage.

John

[Itsallaguess]

If she cared at all about the family of the dead boy then she would have done the decent thing.

I certainly would have stayed to face justice in her situation, wouldn't you?

I would not be able to sleep at night or look at my face in the mirror if I ran away.

I would not even think about returning to a foreign country in such circumstances.

There is nothing to be achieved by the lady facing trial.

Well, there's this....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(psychology)

And if she's doesn't care about closure for herself, then I'd argue that closure for the poor UK family involved has a much, much higher importance here anyway....

I only wish for her to walk past many, many mirror-like surfaces until she achieves it.....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[UncleEbenezer]

They probably have a fair point here. The media coverage probably means she'd get harsher treatment than most motorists who kill.

Call me naive, but I'd like to think the judge would be more influenced by the sentencing guidelines (should it come to that) than by the gutter press.

Scott.

What's a judge got to do with it?

When did a judge last give any meaningful sentence for killing with a car?

[dionaeamuscipula]

"I love that word "relationship." Covers all manner of sins, doesn't it? I fear that this has become a bad relationship; a relationship based on the President taking exactly what he wants and casually ignoring all those things that really matter to, erm... Britain. We may be a small country, but we're a great one, too. The country of Shakespeare, Churchill, the Beatles, Sean Connery, Harry Potter. David Beckham's right foot. David Beckham's left foot, come to that. And a friend who bullies us is no longer a friend. And since bullies only respond to strength, from now onward I will be prepared to be much stronger. And the President should be prepared for that."

Harump. A prime minister who puts the desire for getting revenge on someone trying to muscle in on his sleazy sexual harassment of his staff above the national interest.

Get Lord Leveson to start up a public inquiry.

DM

[UncleIan]

Harump. A prime minister who puts the desire for getting revenge on someone trying to muscle in on his sleazy sexual harassment of his staff above the national interest.

Oooh, wasn't he actually in love then?

[stockton]

So in any case of causing death by careless driving there is nothing to be achieved by the case coming to trial? Or is it just if the perpetrator is foreign?
Or is it just if they are American? Or if they are a middle aged woman? Or they have DI? Or any combination of those?

As a matter of fact it is unlikely to be careless driving - dangerous driving would be a more appropriate. And in reality it is simply an accident - there are very few people who can switch from one side of the road to the other without occasionally driving on the wrong side.
Trial and punishment would achieve nothing as far as preventing similar accidents is concerned.

[stockton]

And if she's doesn't care about closure for herself, then I'd argue that closure for the poor UK family involved has a much, much higher importance here anyway....

I only wish for her to walk past many, many mirror-like surfaces until she achieves it.....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I am a bit puzzled by someone who can achieve closure through the misfortune of someone who is essentially the victim of circumstances. Were I HD"s parents, I suspect that I would be trying to ensure that there was no attempt to pursue Mrs. Sacoolas.

[Itsallaguess]

And if she's doesn't care about closure for herself, then I'd argue that closure for the poor UK family involved has a much, much higher importance here anyway....

I only wish for her to walk past many, many mirror-like surfaces until she achieves it.....

I am a bit puzzled by someone who can achieve closure through the misfortune of someone who is essentially the victim of circumstances.

Were I HD's parents, I suspect that I would be trying to ensure that there was no attempt to pursue Mrs. Sacoolas.

That'll be those 'circumstances' that we're all supposed to adhere safely to when we get behind the wheel of a car, will they?

Your personal view on this is all well and good, but I do hope that you'd also allow the actual grieving parents to hold their own views on the driver who killed their son being able to avoid legal scrutiny -

Harry Dunn's mother said the family would "continue our fight" after the US refused to extradite the woman who is to be charged with causing his death.

Charlotte Charles said she was "fairly calm" following the decision, adding it was "what we expected".

Mr Dunn, 19, died after a crash on his motorbike outside RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire in August.

Mrs Charles said: "We're not going anywhere. The extradition request will forever be over Anne Sacoolas' head."

"We had mentally prepared ourselves and have got plans in place to try and deal with [the decision]," she added.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-51233214

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[swill453]

As a matter of fact it is unlikely to be careless driving - dangerous driving would be a more appropriate. And in reality it is simply an accident - there are very few people who can switch from one side of the road to the other without occasionally driving on the wrong side.

Your first sentence seems at odds with the rest of the paragraph. (Death by) careless driving is the less serious offence, which IMO is more appropriate in this case (based on the details which have been made public*). Dangerous driving involves active disregard for the rules of the road, rather than passive carelessness.

(Obviously there may be more to it, but IMO it's unlikely she went out with the intent to drive on the wrong side of the road).

Scott.

[stockton]

Your personal view on this is all well and good, but I do hope that you'd also allow the actual grieving parents to hold their own views on the driver who killed their son being able to avoid legal scrutiny

As far as I am aware, in the UK we deliberately try to ensure that victims do not have any influence on the legal process - the general view being that it does not make for a just system.

[stockton]

t is a simple matter of fact that driving on the wrong side of the road does not happen through carelessness, and while I am aware that some lawyers like to have their own version of language, it is preferable that the law reflects normal English usage.

As a matter of fact it is unlikely to be careless driving - dangerous driving would be a more appropriate. And in reality it is simply an accident - there are very few people who can switch from one side of the road to the other without occasionally driving on the wrong side.

Your first sentence seems at odds with the rest of the paragraph. (Death by) careless driving is the less serious offence, which IMO is more appropriate in this case (based on the details which have been made public*). Dangerous driving involves active disregard for the rules of the road, rather than passive carelessness.

(Obviously there may be more to it, but IMO it's unlikely she went out with the intent to drive on the wrong side of the road).

Scott.

It is a simple matter of fact that driving on the wrong side of the road does not happen through carelessness, and while I am aware that some lawyers like to have their own version of language, it is preferable that the law reflects normal English usage.

[Itsallaguess]

Your personal view on this is all well and good, but I do hope that you'd also allow the actual grieving parents to hold their own views on the driver who killed their son being able to avoid legal scrutiny

As far as I am aware, in the UK we deliberately try to ensure that victims do not have any influence on the legal process - the general view being that it does not make for a just system.

The parents aren't looking to influence the legal process.

They're looking to be able to start it...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[swill453]

It is a simple matter of fact that driving on the wrong side of the road does not happen through carelessness, and while I am aware that some lawyers like to have their own version of language, it is preferable that the law reflects normal English usage.

I really disagree with you there. To my mind it's a textbook, dictionary, definition of carelessness - lack of care that you're driving on the right side of the road.

But in any case, putting the actual words aside, the law effectively has a scale of seriousness for causing death by driving. At the top would be those cases involving intent, aggression, deliberate disregard of rules, drink and drugs. At the bottom would be cases of forgetfulness, inattentiveness etc.

In my opinion an American driving on the wrong side of the road here is nearer the bottom of the scale (absent any other factors we're not privy to).

Scott.

[Lootman]

the law effectively has a scale of seriousness for causing death by driving. At the top would be those cases involving intent, aggression, deliberate disregard of rules, drink and drugs. At the bottom would be cases of forgetfulness, inattentiveness etc.

In my opinion an American driving on the wrong side of the road here is nearer the bottom of the scale (absent any other factors we're not privy to).

Yes. Given that she isn't coming back a solution could be a plea bargain like this:

1) She admits fault and guilt.

2) She receives a suspended sentence and 3 years probation, which clearly won't be broken.

3) She is banned from driving here, assuming she even had a UK license.

4) She pays compensation or fully co-operates with a civil action or insurance claim.

5) She attends traffic school (as they call it) in the US, with others who get moving violations.

[redsturgeon]

We don't know the full details of the case so can't really say what is justified in terms of sentencing. This is the reason she needs to come back and face the court.

John

[PinkDalek]

[Given that she isn't coming back a solution could be a plea bargain like this:

3) She is banned from driving here, assuming she even had a UK license.

If she isn't coming back, what relevance is a UK Driving Licence or a ban? I don't know if one can be banned if one doesn't hold such a Licence.

If she does come back, isn't she assured of a trial?

[bionichamster]

[Given that she isn't coming back a solution could be a plea bargain like this:

3) She is banned from driving here, assuming she even had a UK license.

If she isn't coming back, what relevance is a UK Driving Licence or a ban? I don't know if one can be banned if one doesn't hold such a Licence.

If she does come back, isn't she assured of a trial?

Presumably it's of little relevance, but if she was here and went to court and she was found guilty it would concieveably be applied as a sanction among other things, and she would probably leave for the states if given a suspended sentence whereupon the ban would become irrelevant..... I assume Lootman is suggesting an alternative approach that might well have the same end result. Well, excepting the aggravation she has now caused by running away and hiding behind DI.

BH

[Lootman]

I don't know if one can be banned if one doesn't hold such a Licence.

I've heard of youths who don't hold a driving licence being banned, so I guess so..

Its value would be mostly symbolic. It seems to me that both sides seek closure here. Dunn's family want some kind of conviction and sentence, and the driver surely wants to not be a fugitive and to be able to travel freely to other countries without risking an international arrest warrant.

I suspect that if a British person received a one-year driving ban on their UK license, they could probably still drive overseas if they had a second, foreign license, as surely many do.