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Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
simoan
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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#316626

Postby simoan » June 9th, 2020, 9:12 am

scotia wrote:
Clitheroekid wrote:Some common sense for a change in this theatre of the absurd - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJPF5j1 ... e=youtu.be

Sumption for PM! :D

I seem to live in a different world from Sumption.

He's a Supreme Court judge and a Lord so I think we can safely assume he lives in his own little world, quite detached from reality. Personally, I don't trust people that shift about so much when talking. I assume he must have some kind of condition? Of course, he's entitled to his opinion but it's clear from the interview that he's no better informed than anyone else. Just another stuffed shirt with an opinion who only gets on the BBC news because he is part of the establishment.

All the best, Si

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#316632

Postby Mike4 » June 9th, 2020, 9:29 am

He seems to have overlooked that the doctor who first raised the alarm over this, ultimately caught and died of it.

Dr Li Wenliang was a fit and healthy male aged 33 when he died. Obviously right at the end of his life and no great loss to anyone.

My opinion of Lord Sumption's views are unprintable.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#316645

Postby dealtn » June 9th, 2020, 9:56 am

Clitheroekid wrote:Some common sense for a change in this theatre of the absurd - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJPF5j1 ... e=youtu.be

Sumption for PM! :D


Sounds broadly reasonable to me.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#316653

Postby SalvorHardin » June 9th, 2020, 10:06 am

scotia wrote:ecks made on antibodies have suggested that about 7% of the UK population have experienced a Covid-19 infection - that leaves 93% still vulnerable. And his inference that it only severely effects persons ready to die from other causes appears to be far from the truth. If there had been no free intensive care beds, would our PM have survived?
I don't know whether or not a relaxation of lockdown will have a major deleterious effect - but I would certainly prefer if it is carried out gradually while the incidence of the disease is monitored.

7% having antibodies does not mean that the remaining 93% have not been infected at some stage. Many people have recovered from the Wuhan coronavirus but have not produced antibodies because of other factors. An example is T-cell lymphocytes, part of the immune system which reacts before antibodies are produced. Some people's T-cell systems are so strong that they stop the coronavirus before antibodies appear. From the British Society of Immunology:

"10 to 20 per cent of people who have been infected with COVID-19 have little or no detectable antibody in their blood. However, this does not mean they have no immunity. In other diseases, such as flu, some people who appear to have no antibodies still have immunity through another part of the immune system, anti-viral T-cells. Understanding whether T-cells protect against future infection is key."

https://www.immunology.org/news/coronavirus-immunology-qa-what-you-need-know-about-our-new-report

Then is evidence that antibodies generated by previous coronavirus infections (and other viruses), notably certain varieties of the common cold, have been effective in fighting off the coronavirus. It's possible that past outbreaks of other coronaviruses and influenzas in some countries (but not others) have greatly boosted these countries' populations' resistance to the Wuhan coronavirus.

"One thing seems clear: there are many reasons why one population is more protected than another. Theoretical epidemiologist Sunetra Gupta of the University of Oxford thinks that a key one is immunity that was built up prior to this pandemic. “It’s been my hunch for a very long time that there is a lot of cross-protection from severe disease and death conferred by other circulating, related bugs,” she says. Though that cross-protection may not protect a person from infection in the first place, it could ensure they only experience relatively mild symptoms."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/07/immunological-dark-matter-does-it-exist-coronavirus-population-immunity

As to fit young people who have died from it, there seems to be three main reasons. First is an undiscovered condition which makes them susceptible. Second is that they experienced a very high initial viral load (too much introduced into their system for their immune system to fight it off). Third is genetic mutations; some people's genetics makes them more susceptible to particular diseases (just as some people are naturally resistant to some diseases).

When SARS hit the initial viral exposure was a key factor in determing the severity of the infection. So far there's some evidence that this may be a factor for the Wuhan coronavirus.

"One of the theories as to why many otherwise healthy front-line healthcare workers are dying from the coronavirus is that they are exposed to higher amounts of COVID-19 particles while treating patients"

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/doctor-note-high-viral-load-coronavirus-worse-200515075609542.html

Given the increasing amount of evidence that the virus appeared in China several months before it first came to the world's attention (and thus in other countries), it is possible that Britain was hit by a second wave in March having had the first wave before Christmas.

"Researchers looked at 7,000 genome sequence assemblies collected from around the world to determine their most recent common ancestor. Results suggest the global health crisis may have started at some point between October 6 and December 11"

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3083211/coronavirus-may-have-jumped-humans-early-october-study-says

XFool
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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#316657

Postby XFool » June 9th, 2020, 10:16 am

Clitheroekid wrote:Some common sense for a change in this theatre of the absurd - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJPF5j1 ... e=youtu.be

Sumption for PM! :D

Ah, "common sense"! That lasting favourite of the underinformed to the workings of the natural world. :lol:

Personally, my favourite piece of "common sense" is, in the words of the great Clint: "A man's got to know his limitations"

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#316680

Postby scotia » June 9th, 2020, 11:11 am

SalvorHardin wrote:7% having antibodies does not mean that the remaining 93% have not been infected at some stage. Many people have recovered from the Wuhan coronavirus but have not produced antibodies because of other factors. An example is T-cell lymphocytes, part of the immune system which reacts before antibodies are produced. Some people's T-cell systems are so strong that they stop the coronavirus before antibodies appear. From the British Society of Immunology:

"10 to 20 per cent of people who have been infected with COVID-19 have little or no detectable antibody in their blood. However, this does not mean they have no immunity. In other diseases, such as flu, some people who appear to have no antibodies still have immunity through another part of the immune system, anti-viral T-cells. Understanding whether T-cells protect against future infection is key."

OK - lets take the upper limit in your figures of 20%. So the 7% who have been infected and show antibodies can be increased to around 9% who have been infected. That leaves 91% rather than 93% who have not been infected, and given the accuracy of the figures it makes little or no difference.
And as to the second part of your argument which appears to be that there may be some antibodies acquired from different viral infections which provide some immunity, then it would be most likely that the elderly would have accrued most of these in their lifetimes, and it would be the young who would be more susceptible - which appears to be exactly the opposite as observed. I see that the quote from Gupta on this subject is a "hunch" . I have a poor opinion of hunches without proof.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#316730

Postby dealtn » June 9th, 2020, 12:17 pm

scotia wrote:And as to the second part of your argument which appears to be that there may be some antibodies acquired from different viral infections which provide some immunity, then it would be most likely that the elderly would have accrued most of these in their lifetimes, and it would be the young who would be more susceptible - which appears to be exactly the opposite as observed. I see that the quote from Gupta on this subject is a "hunch" . I have a poor opinion of hunches without proof.


Well it is also down to exposure.

It isn't inconsistent that "the elderly" have greater protection from exposure to previous infections relative to the "young", and still have more infections and worse outcomes.

Consider the case if "it" was especially common in locations such as care homes, and virtually non-existent in schools. Even if the "elderly" had better underlying protection, and the "young" didn't, if the vast majority of those in care homes were "elderly" and those in schools "young" then you would expect more "elderly" to get "it". It might be the case that it would be even worse without the extra protection the elderly possess, than if they didn't, but it isn't the case the "opposite as observed" refutes the point.

Just a simplified example, and not necessarily the whole explanation, but if it is true that a large proportion of infections are occurring in care homes, or places where disproportionate numbers of the older generation happen to be, and the opposite for the younger generation then you will "observe" this outcome.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#316733

Postby servodude » June 9th, 2020, 12:28 pm

dealtn wrote: if it is true that a large proportion of infections are occurring in care homes, or places where disproportionate numbers of the older generation happen to be, and the opposite for the younger generation then you will "observe" this outcome.


Larger numbers of fatalities and serious cases proportionally, but the vast majority of cases are not in care homes.
Where they do exacerbate things is by being like static cruise ships with an enclosed, and confined, and elderly, and relatively populated environment; so once it's there it's super spread (or perhaps it's cruise ships that are like care homes?!?)

If people wanted to downplay the accrued immunity argument they'd be best arguing along the lines of immunity being temporary and old people mixing less than the younger cohort.

-sd

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317720

Postby XFool » June 11th, 2020, 8:30 pm

How Sweden’s herd immunity strategy has backfired

New Statesman

As the country’s Covid-19 death toll has spiralled, support for the government’s unique approach has frayed.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317745

Postby Clitheroekid » June 11th, 2020, 11:49 pm

XFool wrote:How Sweden’s herd immunity strategy has backfired

New Statesman

As the country’s Covid-19 death toll has spiralled, support for the government’s unique approach has frayed.

I've read the article, and it's arguable that it actually proves the exact opposite of what the author wanted to say.

Yes, the Swedish death rate is slightly higher than other countries, but not by any means dramatically so. It's significantly lower than that in the UK, and is also, as in most other European countries, gradually declining. It's also notable that 90% of the deaths were among the over-70's.

But as with all such articles the concentration on the death rate largely ignores the other - equally important - side of the coin, namely the economic effects of lockdown.

The author says: The refusal to lock down has not even spared Sweden’s export-oriented economy. With much of the world shut down, demand for exports has fallen and supply chains have been disrupted.

The implication is that it wasn't worth Sweden trying to maintain a more or less normal society, as the economy has taken a huge hit anyway. But the only reason it's taken a hit is that other countries have imposed lockdowns, strangling their own economies, which has inevitably hit Swedish exports. If the other countries had followed Sweden's example both their economies and Sweden's economy would have been far less severely affected.

Of course the overall number of deaths would have been higher, but if the Swedish example is anything to go by the vast majority of such deaths would have been amongst the over-70's, and I would imagine that many, if not most of those were people who had pre-existing health problems anyway. In absolute terms the additional numbers would probably have not been very high.

I’m not at all minimising the pain and suffering that those increased deaths would have caused – I’m rapidly approaching that age group myself – but such deaths must be balanced against the economic harm caused to the large majority of the population.

So compared to the immense devastation that lockdown has caused - and will continue to cause - to European economies it can be rationally argued that it has not been worth it, and that other countries should actually have followed Sweden's example. In fact, I believe that this strategy was the one originally intended for the UK.

I don't even think that it's the argument for herd immunity that drives the argument, though if it happens it will be very welcome. It seems to me that the fundamental point is that CV is far less dangerous to the large majority of people than it was originally thought to be. In fact, for the vast majority of people under around 45 it presents no real threat at all.

I strongly suspect that far more people have had the virus and suffered none or only very mild symptoms than estimated. This is evidenced by the fact that despite the actual relaxation of lockdown being far more prevalent than allowed by the rules the number of people catching it is declining rapidly, indicating that the virus is gradually disappearing and/or that most people have a fairly high resistance to it.

So in the long term I think there’s a good chance that the Swedish strategy will prove to have been right. It's an unpalatable fact that lives do have an economic price, and the cost of preserving the lives of a relatively small number of mostly elderly / ill people will, in retrospect, be seen as far too high compared to the massive damage to those younger people who will have to live through the economic carnage caused by severe lockdown strategies.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317746

Postby dspp » June 11th, 2020, 11:58 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:
XFool wrote:How Sweden’s herd immunity strategy has backfired

New Statesman

As the country’s Covid-19 death toll has spiralled, support for the government’s unique approach has frayed.

I've read the article, and it's arguable that it actually proves the exact opposite of what the author wanted to say.

Yes, the Swedish death rate is slightly higher than other countries, but not by any means dramatically so. It's significantly lower than that in the UK, and is also, as in most other European countries, gradually declining. It's also notable that 90% of the deaths were among the over-70's.

But as with all such articles the concentration on the death rate largely ignores the other - equally important - side of the coin, namely the economic effects of lockdown.

The author says: The refusal to lock down has not even spared Sweden’s export-oriented economy. With much of the world shut down, demand for exports has fallen and supply chains have been disrupted..


It is almost as if the author failed Systems Modelling for Dummies #101 at the first question "compare & contrast endogenous with exogenous".

regards, dspp

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317760

Postby servodude » June 12th, 2020, 5:17 am

Clitheroekid wrote:the Swedish death rate is slightly higher than other countries, but not by any means dramatically so


without being dramatic about it, their deaths per million is one hundred times that of Australia or New Zealand and infinitely more than Vietnam ;)

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317761

Postby redsturgeon » June 12th, 2020, 6:13 am

servodude wrote:
Clitheroekid wrote:the Swedish death rate is slightly higher than other countries, but not by any means dramatically so


without being dramatic about it, their deaths per million is one hundred times that of Australia or New Zealand and infinitely more than Vietnam ;)


And many times that of their Scandinavian neighbours who are much closer to them in terms of both demographics and geography.

John

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317771

Postby Wuffle » June 12th, 2020, 7:41 am

'success' here may be a question of point of view.
From the point of view of a state, old people are an expensive luxury (their assets roll over).
From the point of view of old people, they are the most important thing in the world, obviously.
We are so used to younger people's interests suffering at the hands of the older block vote, perhaps we are blind to the reverse?
Not a nice business, but plausible.

W.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317794

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 12th, 2020, 9:33 am

Wuffle wrote:'success' here may be a question of point of view.

From an island nation, I guess success looks like NZ, while abject failure looks closer to home.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317801

Postby dealtn » June 12th, 2020, 9:53 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Wuffle wrote:'success' here may be a question of point of view.

From an island nation, I guess success looks like NZ, while abject failure looks closer to home.


How many infected in the early days of the pandemic travelled to, or through Wellington airport, returning from ski holidays etc. compared to Heathrow?

I think many of the biggest factors of such successes and failures are outwith the control or influence of politicians.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317805

Postby swill453 » June 12th, 2020, 10:05 am

dealtn wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:
Wuffle wrote:'success' here may be a question of point of view.

From an island nation, I guess success looks like NZ, while abject failure looks closer to home.


How many infected in the early days of the pandemic travelled to, or through Wellington airport, returning from ski holidays etc. compared to Heathrow?

I think many of the biggest factors of such successes and failures are outwith the control or influence of politicians.

I would have thought locking down a week earlier, and saving 30,000 lives, would have been quite a big factor.

Scott.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317812

Postby dealtn » June 12th, 2020, 10:19 am

swill453 wrote:
dealtn wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:From an island nation, I guess success looks like NZ, while abject failure looks closer to home.


How many infected in the early days of the pandemic travelled to, or through Wellington airport, returning from ski holidays etc. compared to Heathrow?

I think many of the biggest factors of such successes and failures are outwith the control or influence of politicians.

I would have thought locking down a week earlier, and saving 30,000 lives, would have been quite a big factor.

Scott.


Possibly yes.

We don't as yet know what was happening at the time. If 100% of all the scientists giving advise were saying do that, and a leader said "No. I know best" then universal scorn should be forthcoming. If 100% were saying the opposite, then I think that judgement would be harsh.

I am at least prepared to wait until we have an independent enquiry after the event before making, what are at the end of the day, unhelpful judgements.

Regardless, and conscious this is suppose to be a non-politics venue, I think the biggest buffoon could have been in charge of New Zealand, and still achieved a "good" outcome, and the greatest political genius would have looked relatively "bad" with respect to the UK. (And for clarity's sake I don't think either label applies to either leader in this example).

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317831

Postby servodude » June 12th, 2020, 11:19 am

dealtn wrote:I am at least prepared to wait until we have an independent enquiry after the event before making, what are at the end of the day, unhelpful judgements.
.

I'm not so sure they're unhelpful.

As it stands there's a high correlation of leaders that are on record as downplaying the risks of this with countries that have suffered a high proportions of deaths.
Have a look at the actions taken by places like Vietnam, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan; when they were taken and how they were taken. Then compare them with what's been done in the US or Brazil or the UK.

We're not at the end of this yet! It's not too late to improve the game plan.

It's not always about the final score, how the teams play can be a big part of it; especially to morale.
It's OK to lose sometimes but it hurts to see your team dial in a lackluster performance; some didn't even turn up!

spectemur agendo

-sd

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#317837

Postby redsturgeon » June 12th, 2020, 11:34 am

servodude wrote:
dealtn wrote:I am at least prepared to wait until we have an independent enquiry after the event before making, what are at the end of the day, unhelpful judgements.
.

I'm not so sure they're unhelpful.

As it stands there's a high correlation of leaders that are on record as downplaying the risks of this with countries that have suffered a high proportions of deaths.
Have a look at the actions taken by places like Vietnam, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan; when they were taken and how they were taken. Then compare them with what's been done in the US or Brazil or the UK.

We're not at the end of this yet! It's not too late to improve the game plan.

It's not always about the final score, how the teams play can be a big part of it; especially to morale.
It's OK to lose sometimes but it hurts to see your team dial in a lackluster performance; some didn't even turn up!

spectemur agendo

-sd


I think we can look at this as a half time team talk.

I am sure there are many parties though who would wish to delay any scrutiny as long as possible.

John


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