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Senior isolation

A virtual pub for off topic, light hearted pub related banter and discussion. No trainers
zico
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Re: Senior isolation

#291016

Postby zico » March 15th, 2020, 3:07 pm

JohnB wrote:I'm 52 but I live in the same house as and care for my mother who's 90 and only leaves the house for medical appointments, so is already isolated. Her back problems have worsened this spring such that I'd not made many plans for the next four months anyway that need cancelling, but while I'm happy to take my chances with the virus and move on, I don't want to to inflict it on her until she's at least well enough to sleep in a bed rather than a chair. I get cabin fever over winter when I can't get out visiting places, not sure I can cope of a year without summer stuff, but how do I balance the middle of my life with the end of hers. I suspect my garden won't know what's hit it this year.


I'm not an epidemiologist, but was a modeller and have done stuff about risk. The risk is pretty low now, but will be increasing ten-fold (or more) with each passing week.
Rather than directly give you advice, I'll explain my own thought processes about my 89-year old dad who lives on his own 90 minutes away from me.
I'll be advising him to stop shopping and going to whist drives, but continuing to get out and about to see a couple of close friends. (Of course, he'll do exactly what he wants, as per usual!)
Before I visit him, I'll arrange a date about a week in advance and I'll properly self-isolate (no shopping or contact with anyone) then at least I know I won't be carrying the virus to him.

"Self-isolate" is being interpreted in various ways, but essentially it means "reduce close contact with the general public as much as you can". The fewer people you see, the lower your risk.
During the peak period (probably mid-April to end-Sep) everytime I leave the house, I'll be assuming that every surface I touch and every person I go near will give me Covid-19, so I'll immediately use hand sanitizer and avoid touching my face until I can wash my hands with soap & water.

There's an excellent article showing how diseases spread in populations, and the effects of different levels of self-isolation within populations.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... simulator/

terminal7
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Re: Senior isolation

#291017

Postby terminal7 » March 15th, 2020, 3:21 pm

How about banning that lardy bunch of 50 year olds at the other end of the snug with BMIs well in excess of 30 who spend half their time smoking amongst the landlord's garden gnomes? Ok they eat all the landlord's crisps and pork scratching - but we all have to sacrifice.

T7

74 - walk 3/5 miles every day - BMI 22 - go to weekly gym classes etc.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Senior isolation

#291018

Postby Itsallaguess » March 15th, 2020, 3:27 pm

Dod101 wrote:
I understand what you are saying but I try to keep fit by walking about 3 or 4 miles at least, on a more or less daily basis.

I cannot keep up that fitness, physical or mental if I am required to stay indoors or in my garden (it is not small but not that big!) I think that keeping fit must be important if I am to be in a position to ward off the bug if I get it.

I attend very few social gatherings as it is and am probably just about to get the bug by visiting my daughter and her family, but it is no life for anyone if you are to be confined to barracks indefinitely.


It's a difficult one for those that are in positions where they need to issue these sorts of rulings and guidance, I suppose.

On the one hand, who could really argue with those here, including your good self Dod, who would only look to venture further afield in sensible circumstances and during quiet times, with extremely low risk of cross-contamination over that which might still be found at home anyway?

But then they've also got to think of those that *do* need telling, who might not think in such sensible terms, and might be living in much higher populated areas, with a much higher risk of cross-contamination.

Looking at some reports coming from other countries much further up the infection-curve than we are currently, it seems that the risk of having to ration things like ventilators and respirators for those in dire need when struggling with this virus is very real in the hospitals coming under the worst strains, and the UK Health Secretary has alluded to a similar risk with our own NHS.

That current lack of essential medical equipment is likely to be at the heart of any potential future guidance in this area, and it's understandable that personal and family isolation will be one of the few key tools available to us as a society when it comes to lowering the numbers having to pass through the NHS at any given time, whilst the country is having to deal with this virus. We really don't have many other tools available to us at this time which have a chance of controlling those numbers flowing into the NHS system with this virus who are in that highly vulnerable age-group...

You'd like to think that there would be some pragmatism involved, I do agree, and that a few laps of a local field at 6am in the morning is not going to land you in court, but it must be really difficult for Governments to be able to deal with this really quite serious situation if they have to start thinking too much about granular rules that don't cover the vast numbers that they are trying to protect here...

Someone posted a great line in a thread that I read yesterday, which said something along the lines that 'The last time this country had to deal with a national crisis, we asked people to go to war. This time we're asking people to stay at home....'

When we see it in those terms, in does bring home the relative magnitude of the questions being asked of us, and I say that as a working parent who expects school closures soon, and who will have to be asked similar questions soon enough with regards to how we're going to be able to cope with that ourselves, for a potentially long period...

Hopefully we'll all be able to avoid a complete lock-down, and we will be allowed some freedom for pragmatic approaches to this issue.

Fingers crossed....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

gnawsome
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Re: Senior isolation

#291021

Postby gnawsome » March 15th, 2020, 3:56 pm

Stonge wrote:Old people are such a nuisance.

But maybe for not too much longer
( I'm 83)

























Aren't we!

brightncheerful
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Re: Senior isolation

#291028

Postby brightncheerful » March 15th, 2020, 4:22 pm

Who would have predicted a run on toilet rolls?


Quite. Who would've predicted the outcome of the referendum? The December general election?

I don't anything about mathematical modelling but it seems to be used by people who, whenever the outcome in practice differs from what was expected in theory, say 'no one could have predicted…'

Despite Margaret Thatcher giving political credence to the concept of individual self-responsibility, the masses still look to government to provide the answers and for advice on what to do. This coronavirus is new, the scientists don't know so are learning as they go. Instead of saying they don't know, they base their advice on modelling.

It is said that human beings are social animals/creatures but I think that's nonsense. I think we are wild animals. Being sociable is a result of centuries of subjugation. I think our wildness has been tamed to the extent that whenever it does emerge (or shine through) it is squashed unless how it manifests itself meets with majority approval. Of course, it is necessary to be sociable to live in harmony with our fellow man / woman which is why we have laws, guidelines and codes of conduct to instil fear of what would happen if we do not comply, but our ability to be sociable does not mean we have to give up on being wild and free.

Through science, in keeping with the unnatural world we have created for ourselves on planet Earth, we have tamed many diseases and viruses so it is hardly surprising that when something as powerful and unknown as this particular coronavirus comes our way that we should band together and want to defend ourselves. But whether the best defence is to go along with the official line or (as necessary summon up the courage to at least) think for ourselves in case what we think might prove to be more correct than what we are told is not something surely that we should fear doing.

In my opinion, this is a task for mental stamina: it is no place for emotion. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. I agree with Dr David Nabarro of WHO who, on BBC R4 Any Questions said, (words to the effect), that individuals should pay heed to the official line but decide for themselves what risk to take.

It is evident that people have decided what risks they are willing to take, never mind the impact on the economy, or sectors of it. What is called 'panic-buying' but which is actually forward planning may not suit the supermarkets - who despite being purveyors of fast moving consumer goods evidently have a different definition of 'fast moving' to the rest of us - but who cares. The answer is those that do care also think that everyone else should also care, we are all in this together.

I interpret the official line to be that most people should experience the virus so as to boost immunity generally in future; which is tantamount to saying we should sacrifice our own health for the common good.

I used to care even when others did not, but I gave up. Caring is an exhausting function, as any carer for a family member would confirm. But there's a difference between caring for a loved one and being expected to care because caring for one another is what community means and communities do.

We live in a rural area in a market town, it's a small town whose population nowadays is majority incomers. Coping with small town mentality is challenging enough without having to accommodate incomers' emotional baggage. Having done my bit for the town and thanked, I have moved on. (We are also planning to physically move but COVID19 has got in the way, another few months of postponement.)

Mrs BnC (under 70) and myself (70.5) have discussed and agreed what to do. I am healthy, Mrs Bnc is prone to ailment. We are not main-stream, we do not consider our life-style typical of elderlies. We live as if in our own bubble. I think it important to be aware of what is happening in the outside world, to show interest in other people's realities, but not involved, not emotionally caught up in every superficial detail of the lives of strangers. The only persons whose health is relevant to us is mine and Mrs Bnc's. We don't go out together often, rarely to crowd events. Mrs Bnc goes out on her own only very occasionally. I don't go out every day (except to the wheelie bins) but when I am out, on business, or for thrice weekly exercise or shopping or massage, I shall carry on as normal but less accommodating.

For example, yesterday, in an exercise class, I spoke briefly with someone who told me they'd been in quarantine, not from having tested positive themselves but because the company they work for had insisted for all its employees. In the past, I would've ignored the remote risk but yesterday not only did I keep well away from the person but also went one stage further and cut short my attendance in the class. Later, shopping in Waitrose, I am normally silently considerate to dawdlers blocking the aisle and wait patiently, but yesterday I turned my trolley around and exit then entered the same aisle from the other direction.

We have decided to stop wasting each other's time imparting the latest news of the virus unfolding. It was news to Mrs Bnc to learn that, for my work and journal/time-line, I am keeping a record of unfolding. I hope i have managed to get Mrs Bnc to stop speculating from the headlines - the media fed by hysterical social media is fond of spreading rubbish - and wait for the facts to be announced on whether it really is not going out for 4 months.

I cannot of course speak for those of us for whom working from home is not a novelty but for myself I know that the 9-5 approach bears no relationship to how I like to work. Unless one's way of working tallies with one's way of living, to bring a 9-5 mentality into one's domestic lifestyle is asking for trouble. Generally, how people like to live is, in my view, more a reflection of their wildness than is the outside world which is a reflection of society's expectation around behaviour and conduct. A lack of congruence causes conflict as it is. The challenge I suggest for those of us who through no fault of our own are not allowed out is not to let it get to us.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Senior isolation

#291243

Postby Itsallaguess » March 16th, 2020, 12:36 pm

Sensible noises coming out of the UK cabinet this morning, suggesting that the advice soon to be given to the over 70's might not be as draconian as Hancock initially seemed to suggest -

A UK cabinet minister has been speaking more about possible measures related the over 70s.

On Sunday, Health Secretary Matt Hancock suggested that those older than 70 will be told "within the coming weeks" to stay at home for an extended period

On Monday, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that those asked to stay home would still be able to go for a walk outside.

"It's about being sensible but not mixing in crowds," he said.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-51903319 (10.14am update)

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

gnawsome
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Re: Senior isolation

#291265

Postby gnawsome » March 16th, 2020, 1:35 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:Sensible noises coming out of the UK cabinet this morning, suggesting that the advice soon to be given to the over 70's might not be as draconian as Hancock initially seemed to suggest -

A UK cabinet minister has been speaking more about possible measures related the over 70s.


Maybe someone has discovered the Pareto principle...

Alexry
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Re: Senior isolation

#291636

Postby Alexry » March 17th, 2020, 2:18 pm

I'm actually very pleasantly surprised at how the UK government has been dealing with this issue.

scotia
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Re: Senior isolation

#291639

Postby scotia » March 17th, 2020, 2:29 pm

Alexry wrote:I'm actually very pleasantly surprised at how the UK government has been dealing with this issue.

I can't entirely agree
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22218&start=260#p291628

stevensfo
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Re: Senior isolation

#292862

Postby stevensfo » March 21st, 2020, 11:23 am

Alexry wrote:I'm actually very pleasantly surprised at how the UK government has been dealing with this issue.


Sorry to say this, but I can't remember the last time I disagreed so strongly with someone's statement. We are in the depths of North Italy, both my wife and I are scientists, looking at the figures coming from South Korea, Singapore etc as well as in Europe and we have been watching events unfold in the UK, our mouths wide open with disbelief! The irresponsibility and failure of the UK government to act upon worldwide data and WHO advice has been breathtaking.

Despite the awful deaths here, I have not seen any panic buying, and all supermarkets are full. People are calm and doing their best while remaining home. Schools have been shut far about 3 weeks now and teachers are setting work and keeping the kids busy via Whatsapp, Signal and Skype.

The South of England is a very densely populated area. I dread to imagine how the situation there will evolve over the next weeks!

All because of the deeply ingrained belief still prevalent in the UK that the world stops at Dover and the philosophical idea among many that nothing exists until it's announced by the tabloids.

Steve

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Re: Senior isolation

#292926

Postby vagrantbrain » March 21st, 2020, 3:01 pm

stevensfo wrote:
Alexry wrote:I'm actually very pleasantly surprised at how the UK government has been dealing with this issue.


Sorry to say this, but I can't remember the last time I disagreed so strongly with someone's statement. We are in the depths of North Italy, both my wife and I are scientists, looking at the figures coming from South Korea, Singapore etc as well as in Europe and we have been watching events unfold in the UK, our mouths wide open with disbelief! The irresponsibility and failure of the UK government to act upon worldwide data and WHO advice has been breathtaking.

Despite the awful deaths here, I have not seen any panic buying, and all supermarkets are full. People are calm and doing their best while remaining home. Schools have been shut far about 3 weeks now and teachers are setting work and keeping the kids busy via Whatsapp, Signal and Skype.

The South of England is a very densely populated area. I dread to imagine how the situation there will evolve over the next weeks!

All because of the deeply ingrained belief still prevalent in the UK that the world stops at Dover and the philosophical idea among many that nothing exists until it's announced by the tabloids.

Steve


I'm not sure how they are being irresponsible. The only stronger thing they can do is to is to physically lock people in their houses which would cause mass panic and completely destroy the economy, possibly permanently. To achieve what - a fen tens of thousands less deaths by covid now of people who will likely die of pneumonia, diabetes, old age etc before the end of the year anyway. Yes we need to look after the sick and vulnerable but of the 66.44 milllion people in the UK 66.43 million will still be around when this is over and they will still need to work, feed and house themselves and their families.

Dod101
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Re: Senior isolation

#292934

Postby Dod101 » March 21st, 2020, 3:47 pm

stevensfo wrote:
Alexry wrote:I'm actually very pleasantly surprised at how the UK government has been dealing with this issue.


Sorry to say this, but I can't remember the last time I disagreed so strongly with someone's statement. We are in the depths of North Italy, both my wife and I are scientists, looking at the figures coming from South Korea, Singapore etc as well as in Europe and we have been watching events unfold in the UK, our mouths wide open with disbelief! The irresponsibility and failure of the UK government to act upon worldwide data and WHO advice has been breathtaking.

Despite the awful deaths here, I have not seen any panic buying, and all supermarkets are full. People are calm and doing their best while remaining home. Schools have been shut far about 3 weeks now and teachers are setting work and keeping the kids busy via Whatsapp, Signal and Skype.

The South of England is a very densely populated area. I dread to imagine how the situation there will evolve over the next weeks!

All because of the deeply ingrained belief still prevalent in the UK that the world stops at Dover and the philosophical idea among many that nothing exists until it's announced by the tabloids.

Steve


You mention that you are scientists. Not sure what that has got to do with it, and of course you are in Italy seeing how they seem to have got the management of the virus so horribly wrong. Then telling us how wrong our government is. You have criticised our government but not given us any clue about how you would deal with our situation, about Senior isolation or anything else.

I am (so far) a healthy over-70 year old with no underlying health issues and we have been advised to self isolate and not see family face to face. That is probably my biggest bugbear but my daughter has two grand daughters, one at University and the other about to be. They have taken jobs in supermarkets because they cannot get other work (such as in restaurants and other hospitality type jobs). I assume that that is hazardous in the sense that they will be exposed from time to time to the virus so I will obviously not see them face to face anyway. OTOH, I have had a good life and if I were overcome by the virus that would be too bad but I would prefer not so I will try to follow the guidelines.

I think Boris and his advisers have probably got this more or less right although to expect people to stay away from pubs and restaurants yet leaving them open seemed at the time rather optimistic and so it proved. Some restaurants seem to have done better than others and there are some in Edinburgh for instance which have turned themselves in to upmarket takeaways apparently.

Dod

XFool
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Re: Senior isolation

#292982

Postby XFool » March 21st, 2020, 6:01 pm

So how's it going so far?

C Day -1: Out of 23 lines of food ordered, Sainsbury's deliver 12
C Day -1: Discover fridge has broken down, order new one for next day
C Day : Fridge arrives damaged (warehouse, not transit)
C Day : Spend hours trying to communicate with fridge supplier
C Day : BT landline failing - have to take time out to fix usual problems with BT main socket
C Day : EVENTUALLY get to Chat online with fridge supplier - must not use fridge
C Day : Email requested photograph to supplier of damage to fridge, plus undamaged packaging
C Day : Little food, milk likely to go off.

...Drank remaining bottle of Sainsbury's beer.

Only another 90/180(?) days to go...
Last edited by XFool on March 21st, 2020, 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kiloran
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Re: Senior isolation

#292984

Postby kiloran » March 21st, 2020, 6:06 pm

XFool wrote:
Only another 90/180(?) days to go...

Optimist :lol:

--kiloran

scotia
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Re: Senior isolation

#292988

Postby scotia » March 21st, 2020, 6:18 pm

We (both mid seventies) have, in the past, kept in touch with our daughter and family, who live 450 miles away by using regular video calls with WhatsApp. Our son's family live much nearer, and we met with them often - but that's now off-limits. So my daughter organised a conference call via WhatsApp, with both son and daughter (and families) appearing on-screen at the same time, and all able to speak. It was quite impressive, and I'm looking forward to more virtual get-togethers. I am now looking at how to carry out this on a larger screen - I believe that I can map the phone screen onto a PC screen, but I still need to use the phone.

ReformedCharacter
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Re: Senior isolation

#292990

Postby ReformedCharacter » March 21st, 2020, 6:22 pm

scotia wrote:We (both mid seventies) have, in the past, kept in touch with our daughter and family, who live 450 miles away by using regular video calls with WhatsApp. Our son's family live much nearer, and we met with them often - but that's now off-limits. So my daughter organised a conference call via WhatsApp, with both son and daughter (and families) appearing on-screen at the same time, and all able to speak. It was quite impressive, and I'm looking forward to more virtual get-togethers. I am now looking at how to carry out this on a larger screen - I believe that I can map the phone screen onto a PC screen, but I still need to use the phone.


This may help, I use it.

https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/web/26000010

RC

zico
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Re: Senior isolation

#292991

Postby zico » March 21st, 2020, 6:23 pm

Dod101 wrote:
You mention that you are scientists. Not sure what that has got to do with it, and of course you are in Italy seeing how they seem to have got the management of the virus so horribly wrong. Then telling us how wrong our government is. You have criticised our government but not given us any clue about how you would deal with our situation, about Senior isolation or anything else.

Dod


Italians have been desperately telling the UK not to make the same mistakes as they did, because they know they didn't act quickly enough or decisively enough. But the UK message has been slow and confused, with people ignoring government advice. It's inevitable that in just a couple of weeks, we'll be seeing the same (or worse) scenes in London as we have in Italy. How we should have dealt with it was to adopt the same measures as other countries, with the same speed, but last week we adopted a different strategy, we've now fallen into line with the rest of the world, but a crucial week later (which is being sold as "moving to the next stage of our plan at exactly the right time"). All countries have faced difficult decisions, but if a single country does something radically different, it really needs to have a very good rationale indeed about for being the exception.

On a lighter note, I discovered the joys of bog-roll altruism yesterday. I was shopping for my 89-year old father and after the scrums of Morrison's (and marvelling at their cafe which was absolutely packed with shoppers sat close together) I still needed the twin essentials of toilet roll and baked beans for my father, so I went to Booths (an upmarket Northern supermarket) and managed to get one of the last five 16-pack toilet rolls on the shelves. My father only wanted 2 rolls, but it was 16 or nothing. In the car park, there was an elderly woman, and I offered her a couple of rolls, and she was surprised, grateful and relieved, even offering to pay (maybe I should have charged £5 per roll??). Naturally, I was then on a roll and gave a couple to my dad's 86-year old neighbour, who was also pleased, and said she'd pass one on to another elderly housebound neighbour who'd been fretting about running out. It's nice to be able to cheer people up so easily and cheaply!

panamagold
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Re: Senior isolation

#293012

Postby panamagold » March 21st, 2020, 7:19 pm

zico wrote:

Italians have been desperately telling the UK not to make the same mistakes as they did, because they know they didn't act quickly enough or decisively enough. But the UK message has been slow and confused, with people ignoring government advice. It's inevitable that in just a couple of weeks, we'll be seeing the same (or worse) scenes in London as we have in Italy. How we should have dealt with it was to adopt the same measures as other countries, with the same speed, but last week we adopted a different strategy, we've now fallen into line with the rest of the world, but a crucial week later (which is being sold as "moving to the next stage of our plan at exactly the right time"). All countries have faced difficult decisions, but if a single country does something radically different, it really needs to have a very good rationale indeed about for being the exception.


Sadly there exists in society a large number of people, and not just young ones, who think the rules of science and nature don't apply to them. Well, they do. And while these airheads are out partying and whatnot they are acting as vectors for the disease.

To paraphrase the late great Richard Feynman:

To successfully combat a public health crisis, " reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."

(Might also be appropriate in the context of some press conferences as well.)

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Re: Senior isolation

#293024

Postby richfool » March 21st, 2020, 8:04 pm

panamagold wrote:
zico wrote:

Italians have been desperately telling the UK not to make the same mistakes as they did, because they know they didn't act quickly enough or decisively enough. But the UK message has been slow and confused, with people ignoring government advice. It's inevitable that in just a couple of weeks, we'll be seeing the same (or worse) scenes in London as we have in Italy. How we should have dealt with it was to adopt the same measures as other countries, with the same speed, but last week we adopted a different strategy, we've now fallen into line with the rest of the world, but a crucial week later (which is being sold as "moving to the next stage of our plan at exactly the right time"). All countries have faced difficult decisions, but if a single country does something radically different, it really needs to have a very good rationale indeed about for being the exception.


Sadly there exists in society a large number of people, and not just young ones, who think the rules of science and nature don't apply to them. Well, they do. And while these airheads are out partying and whatnot they are acting as vectors for the disease.

To paraphrase the late great Richard Feynman:

To successfully combat a public health crisis, " reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."

(Might also be appropriate in the context of some press conferences as well.)

How do we get people to take the situation and the need for social distancing seriously? When I have gone into shops & supermarkets, people don't keep any distance from me, quite the opposite, crowding up close to reach things. Then the same at checkouts. I would have thought it sensible for cashiers and the like to wear face masks (but guess there aren't any available and it might panic others if they did). I try and keep a distance, but others seem oblivious.

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Re: Senior isolation

#293051

Postby gryffron » March 21st, 2020, 10:07 pm

richfool wrote:How do we get people to take the situation and the need for social distancing seriously?

Just cough loudly.

:twisted:


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