NHS tracing app

[zico]

I voted "no, I think it's a stupid idea, and doomed to fail" for the following reasons (which may be right or wrong).

My understanding is that the app only notifies you if you've been within 2 metres of someone for 10-15 minutes, and that person subsequently is found to be infected with Covid-19.
But I intend to follow the laws/rules/guidelines/suggestions and avoid being within 2 metres of someone for 10-15 minutes. So, for me, the app will have no value whatsoever.
I also think that if people are going to ignore the rules and be within 2 metres for 10-15 minutes, why would they take any notice of the app notifying them they may be infected and they should self-isolate for 2 weeks?
This seems a fundamental flaw to me.

I also don't understand why the UK isn't using the app used by most other countries in the world, but has gone it alone with an app that doesn't seem to work properly.

I'm not just an unthinking Luddite because I've signed up to the Kings College Covid-19 tracker app, which asks me to self-report on a daily basis whether or not I have any symptoms. This app is useful in estimating the spread of the virus across regions, so should better inform government policy on dealing with the virus.

[elkay]

This app has actually been a big concern at my workplace, almost bigger than the virus itself. Mobiles aren't allowed past the front gate so they get left in a huge bank of phone lockers at reception. The problem comes when you've got 500+ phones in close proximity for most of the day then one of the owners presses the 'i've got it' button and the entire organisation is self isolating for 14 days while not allowed to work from home. Almost like a digital spanner in the production line ready to be abused by the malicious or idle

If I was leaving my phone in a locker most of the day, it would be turned off. And that is before I I think about installing the NHS app.

[elkay]

I voted "no, I think it's a stupid idea, and doomed to fail" for the following reasons (which may be right or wrong).

My understanding is that the app only notifies you if you've been within 2 metres of someone for 10-15 minutes, and that person subsequently is found to be infected with Covid-19.
But I intend to follow the laws/rules/guidelines/suggestions and avoid being within 2 metres of someone for 10-15 minutes. So, for me, the app will have no value whatsoever.

But this weakness is no longer a factor when restrictions are reduced to the level where social-distancing is not required (or feasible, e.g. dentist visit).

I also don't understand why the UK isn't using the app used by most other countries in the world, but has gone it alone with an app that doesn't seem to work properly.

Is there an app that most other countries are using?

Apparently the Apple/Google collaboration is only starting limited trials in Switzerland, and Latvia is expected to take it up soon.

[Lootman]

But this weakness is no longer a factor when restrictions are reduced to the level where social-distancing is not required (or feasible, e.g. dentist visit).

Coincidentally I just got an email from my dentist outlining the precautions they will be taking when they fully reopen:

1) All patients to wear masks except in the chair
2) Temperature screening upon arrival. You must leave if over 38 degrees C
3) Patients to sit 1.5 metres apart in the waiting room. Do not arrive early.
4) Scrubdown of chairs and all surfaces between patients
5) Use hand sanitiser upon arrival
6) No magazines in the waiting room
7) Pre-rinse with anti bacterial mouthwash

[jfgw]

7) Pre-rinse with anti bacterial mouthwash

Revised list:
1. Find a dentist who knows the difference between bacteria and viruses.
(Continue list in accordance with new dentist's requirements.)

Julian F. G. W.

[UncleEbenezer]

7) Pre-rinse with anti bacterial mouthwash

Revised list:
1. Find a dentist who knows the difference between bacteria and viruses.
(Continue list in accordance with new dentist's requirements.)

Julian F. G. W.

Be fair. The real reason is probably for the comfort of the dentist. Without offending patients who are touchy about their halitosis.

[servodude]

7) Pre-rinse with anti bacterial mouthwash

Revised list:
1. Find a dentist who knows the difference between bacteria and viruses.
(Continue list in accordance with new dentist's requirements.)

Julian F. G. W.

Be fair. The real reason is probably for the comfort of the dentist. Without offending patients who are touchy about their halitosis.

That was the first thought that popped in to my head!
- seems like a good opportunity

Perhaps the govt can take a similar tack and change their current slogan to
" stay alert and make sure you have clean underwear in case you're in an accident"

- sd

[Mike4]

My understanding is that the app only notifies you if you've been within 2 metres of someone for 10-15 minutes, and that person subsequently is found to be infected with Covid-19.

Where did you get that from, please? It implies some sort of independent verification.

My understanding is the person can self-diagnose, which fatally undermines the credibility of the notifications sent out.

[servodude]

My understanding is that the app only notifies you if you've been within 2 metres of someone for 10-15 minutes, and that person subsequently is found to be infected with Covid-19.

Where did you get that from, please? It implies some sort of independent verification.

My understanding is the person can self-diagnose, which fatally undermines the credibility of the notifications sent out.

That sounds like a silly idea but from this https://www.pocket-lint.com/apps/news/1 ... -will-work
it appears that the app will allow both methods of diagnosis
- which kind of gives the worst of both worlds

If they clearly distinguish between "you were with a hypochondriac last week" from "your workmate has the disease" and allow you to filter out the spam it might be useful?

I wonder if they might eventually re-spin with the Singaporean developed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTrace
- they've made it open source and it requires a PIN before it accepts a diagnosis

the NHS app as it stands is not looking promising
-sd

[sunnyjoe]

But this weakness is no longer a factor when restrictions are reduced to the level where social-distancing is not required (or feasible, e.g. dentist visit).

Coincidentally I just got an email from my dentist outlining the precautions they will be taking when they fully reopen:

1) All patients to wear masks except in the chair
2) Temperature screening upon arrival. You must leave if over 38 degrees C
3) Patients to sit 1.5 metres apart in the waiting room. Do not arrive early.
4) Scrubdown of chairs and all surfaces between patients
5) Use hand sanitiser upon arrival
6) No magazines in the waiting room
7) Pre-rinse with anti bacterial mouthwash

My wife is a dentist and recently had a meeting with her colleagues to discuss what precautions would be needed to enable them to restart seeing patients. They look a lot like your list except

a) They will initially open to see emergencies only
b) No aerosol producing procedures i.e. no drill, no extractions. Very limited treatment
b) Only one patient in the waiting room at any time. Don't come in the front door until the receptionist calls your mobile phone. Where you wait outside is your problem
c) Plastic screen between receptionist area and waiting area
d) Precautions for vulnerable staff still to be determined
e) PPE prices are now 8x pre Covid-19

[Dod101]

My dentist has just told me what their procedures will be pretty much per Lootman, opening up for all, but they have abandoned their waiting room and you must call them on arrival outside the premises and they will escort you through the premises to the surgery. They will be dressed in full PPE and the patient must wear a mask until obviously he gets in to the chair. All the usual hand sanitizers and other stuff that Lootman mentions. No date for actual opening yet and I daresay they will have to adjust the arrangements depending on how feasible (or not) they turn out to be.

And pay on arrival with a card only. Not sure why but I don't mind.

Dod

[Lootman]

But this weakness is no longer a factor when restrictions are reduced to the level where social-distancing is not required (or feasible, e.g. dentist visit).

Coincidentally I just got an email from my dentist outlining the precautions they will be taking when they fully reopen:

1) All patients to wear masks except in the chair
2) Temperature screening upon arrival. You must leave if over 38 degrees C
3) Patients to sit 1.5 metres apart in the waiting room. Do not arrive early.
4) Scrubdown of chairs and all surfaces between patients
5) Use hand sanitiser upon arrival
6) No magazines in the waiting room
7) Pre-rinse with anti bacterial mouthwash

My wife is a dentist and recently had a meeting with her colleagues to discuss what precautions would be needed to enable them to restart seeing patients. They look a lot like your list except

a) They will initially open to see emergencies only
b) No aerosol producing procedures i.e. no drill, no extractions. Very limited treatment
b) Only one patient in the waiting room at any time. Don't come in the front door until the receptionist calls your mobile phone. Where you wait outside is your problem
c) Plastic screen between receptionist area and waiting area
d) Precautions for vulnerable staff still to be determined
e) PPE prices are now 8x pre Covid-19

If the staff have full PPE then why can they only do emergencies?

My dentist did not list any exceptions but maybe they make that decision on a case-by-case basis.

Also maybe if a dentist takes on NHS work then they are bound by NHS rules, whereas a 100% private dentist has more discretion?

[UncleEbenezer]

Today's announcement: bring track-and-trace forward five days. Who'll be the first Fool to get a hoax call purporting to be from the programme?
As for email, it's only a teensy update from stuff already flying around.

It's now officially relegated to the status of a Dead Cat. Distract attention from Cummings & Gowings, and at the same time backtrack from the importance of the sacred app!

(p.s. I said no on security grounds. There's no way I'm walking around in public places with bluetooth wide open).

[swill453]

It's now officially relegated to the status of a Dead Cat. Distract attention from Cummings & Gowings, and at the same time backtrack from the importance of the sacred app!

Sacred? Nah, it was always “the cherry on the cake and not the cake itself” wasn't it?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... or-england

Scott.

[servodude]

There's no way I'm walking around in public places with bluetooth wide open.

Can I ask what you would be worried about these days?

Notwithstanding the hack job that's been made of the NHS app the principle it's operating on is actually pretty sound (leveraging the received signal strength to infer distance is how you generally decide to layout a mesh network and it works well for that)

It will increase the load on your battery but with BLE it's a lot less than I would have expected at first (especially in the latent state)
Addressing adheres to ITU-T X.667 so it's not like there can be sniffing for MAC addresses to work out who you are (the address is specific to the connection not the device)

from what I can tell the security concerns that were part of bluetooth have been well addressed in later revisions and especially BLE
- well aside from Denial of Service which I suppose is what these Apps will look like if there's the take up that the various govts pushing them need

- sd

[Mike4]

"Testing and tracing must become a new way of life", said some faceless suit from the guvverment said on the news tonight. Matt Hancock, was it? They all look the same to me. (I note he said "testing and tracing", not "tracking and tracing".)

Given I suspect he is right and testing and tracing is gonna become a big part of our lives for the next year or two, and the phone app will eventually be a substantial part of this, maybe this thread is the place to discuss this "testing and tracing".

If I heard right, the suit said that the manual tracing announced tonight starts with people noticing they have symptoms. Once noticed, people have a "civic duty" to report this fact by dialling 119 which will trigger them being tested pronto. And if found positive which will take 24 hours apparently, their contacts will be traced and all told to self-isolate, along with the person reporting.

The thing that strikes me is lecturing people that it is their "civic duty", in the light of recent news events is a bit rich and I think they need to change tack or compliance will be low. There needs to be something in it for people to encourage peeps to report their symptoms. I'm not sure what but there needs to be something, or I just can't see it working.

Just musing really. What do you lot think?

[servodude]

There needs to be something in it for people to encourage peeps to report their symptoms.

remember the anti-piracy trailers at the start of DVDs
- "You wouldn't steal a handbag. You wouldn't steal a car. You wouldn't steal a baby. You wouldn't shoot a policeman. And then steal his helmet."

I think that's how they'll do it:
- "Still got a nan? Want to be the one that puts her on a ventilator?
Want to watch her die from behind a window?
Didn't think so! Download this app and know if the guy picking fruit in the furrow next to you has given you IT before you give IT to her"

-sd

[Mike4]

There needs to be something in it for people to encourage peeps to report their symptoms.

remember the anti-piracy trailers at the start of DVDs
- "You wouldn't steal a handbag. You wouldn't steal a car. You wouldn't steal a baby. You wouldn't shoot a policeman. And then steal his helmet."

I think that's how they'll do it:
- "Still got a nan? Want to be the one that puts her on a ventilator?
Want to watch her die from behind a window?
Didn't think so! Download this app and know if the guy picking fruit in the furrow next to you has given you IT before you give IT to her"

-sd

Yep, thats a lot more powerful than that nice Mr Hancock's imaginative "you MUST report, it's your civic duty".

There is a skool of thought we have elected ourselves a bunch of middle managers rather than leaders. He has to be the epitome.

[Arborbridge]

We seem to be drifting into the same mistake made near the beginning of this pandemic: namely, our "leaders" want to make everything voluntary if possible - a Tory principle due to their history dislike of regulation. They should reinforce the message an make it tougher, backed up with fines or other penalties. This is the only thing which will work.
On the same day that discussion continued about exactly what guidelines mean as interpreted by one paticular Downing Street member, I can just see many people rationalising that they have made a personal calculation that it doesn't apply to me, and not self isolate. It's already happening apparently, and Johnson has created a problem for the police which will linger for a while.


Arb.

[didds]

If I was leaving my phone in a locker most of the day, it would be turned off. And that is before I I think about installing the NHS app.

Indeed. But if there are 500 phones in that locker I'll wager not all of them are turned off

must be hellish for anybody in the proximity of that locker with 499 phones all beeping and ringing all day!

didds