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Is 12pm noon or midnight?

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servodude
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343345

Postby servodude » September 28th, 2020, 8:35 am

GoSeigen wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
servodude wrote:Exactly! it's a singular point in time that is both simultaneously equally ante and post meridian.. so the use of 12pm or am to mean a specific time of day is a bit vague :)

-sd

And that is why in military terminology there is no such time as 00:00. It is either 23:59 or 00:01. That way you know which day is being referred to.

TJH


I call this nonsense. The (US and other) military use a 24-hour clock. It would be nice to have an authoritative reference from those who dispute this.

GS


If it's not... don't tell anyone! They might attack at midnight ;)

GoSeigen
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343349

Postby GoSeigen » September 28th, 2020, 8:44 am

servodude wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:And that is why in military terminology there is no such time as 00:00. It is either 23:59 or 00:01. That way you know which day is being referred to.

TJH


I call this nonsense. The (US and other) military use a 24-hour clock. It would be nice to have an authoritative reference from those who dispute this.

GS


If it's not... don't tell anyone! They might attack at midnight ;)


Yes, I must say I do love the idea that a minute of each day simply does not exist for the military, and for the sole reason that the way it is named might be confusing. Sounds highly apocryphal though...

GS

jfgw
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343529

Postby jfgw » September 28th, 2020, 5:40 pm

I have thought of an answer to the problem of deciding which day midnight falls upon; just call it 23:60.

Thinking about it though, that would make it pm whereas, by convention, it is am.

How about calling it 01:-60?


Julian F. G. W.

swill453
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343530

Postby swill453 » September 28th, 2020, 5:44 pm

jfgw wrote:I have thought of an answer to the problem of deciding which day midnight falls upon; just call it 23:60.

Thinking about it though, that would make it pm whereas, by convention, it is am.

How about calling it 01:-60?

I thought we'd settled this, AleisterCrowley gave the definitive answer early in the thread. It's in the ISO8601 standard - 00:00 is midnight, at the start of the day. There is no alternative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601

Scott.

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343532

Postby XFool » September 28th, 2020, 5:57 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
servodude wrote:Exactly! it's a singular point in time that is both simultaneously equally ante and post meridian.. so the use of 12pm or am to mean a specific time of day is a bit vague :)

-sd

And that is why in military terminology there is no such time as 00:00. It is either 23:59 or 00:01. That way you know which day is being referred to.

TJH

This doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

If a 24 hour clock is being used, how can there possibly be any ambiguity over the day?

Midnight: 0000 Hours - Start of the day
Midday: 1200 Hours - Middle of the day
Midnight 2400 Hours - End of the day

This is a US military site, but it seems to concur with my thinking: https://www.militarytime.us/midnight-military-time/

Midnight (2400/0000) - "The day is dead! Long live the (next) day!"

Alternatively: "Never in the field of horology have so many taken such pains to make something so simple so complicated."
Last edited by XFool on September 28th, 2020, 6:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.

XFool
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343535

Postby XFool » September 28th, 2020, 5:59 pm

jfgw wrote:I have thought of an answer to the problem of deciding which day midnight falls upon; just call it 23:60.

Thinking about it though, that would make it pm whereas, by convention, it is am.

How about calling it 01:-60?

Julian F. G. W.

How about not doing so?

Honestly, I can no longer tell on here whether posters are being serious or not...

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343539

Postby UncleEbenezer » September 28th, 2020, 6:05 pm

XFool wrote:Honestly, I can no longer tell on here whether posters are being serious or not...

Some threads kind-of demand a maxillingual response.

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343545

Postby XFool » September 28th, 2020, 6:16 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
XFool wrote:Honestly, I can no longer tell on here whether posters are being serious or not...

Some threads kind-of demand a maxillingual response.

https://www.scribd.com/document/337007588/4-Ajagbe-O-Brown-RS-Krakow-AM-Choksi-S-Dental-Erosion

Almost a Googlewhack. Or, things being as they are now, a DuckDuck Gowhack? Um...

tjh290633
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343561

Postby tjh290633 » September 28th, 2020, 7:27 pm

XFool wrote:This doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

If a 24 hour clock is being used, how can there possibly be any ambiguity over the day?

Midnight: 0000 Hours - Start of the day
Midday: 1200 Hours - Middle of the day
Midnight 2400 Hours - End of the day

This is a US military site, but it seems to concur with my thinking: https://www.militarytime.us/midnight-military-time/

Midnight (2400/0000) - "The day is dead! Long live the (next) day!"

Alternatively: "Never in the field of horology have so many taken such pains to make something so simple so complicated."

The command is: "We attack at 00:01 on Monday". If you say Midnight or either 00:00 or 24:00 it could be either at the beginning or the end of Monday. 00:01 is unambiguous.

TJH

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343562

Postby swill453 » September 28th, 2020, 7:30 pm

tjh290633 wrote:The command is: "We attack at 00:01 on Monday". If you say Midnight or either 00:00 or 24:00 it could be either at the beginning or the end of Monday. 00:01 is unambiguous.

00:00 is unambiguous. I agree saying midnight is ambiguous, this was mentioned upthread.

(24:00 doesn't exist :-) )

Scott.

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343572

Postby XFool » September 28th, 2020, 8:01 pm

tjh290633 wrote:The command is: "We attack at 00:01 on Monday". If you say Midnight or either 00:00 or 24:00 it could be either at the beginning or the end of Monday. 00:01 is unambiguous.

TJH

But, if it is "0000 hours on Monday" it's at the start of Monday. So the operation is ongoing through Monday. If it's "2400 hours on Monday" it's at the end of Monday - midnight on Monday. So the operation is ongoing through Tuesday (the day following Monday).

AleisterCrowley
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343578

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 28th, 2020, 8:14 pm

"As of ISO 8601-1:2019 midnight may only be referred to as "00:00", corresponding to the beginning of a calendar day. Earlier versions of the standard allowed "24:00" corresponding to the end of a day, but this is explicitly disallowed by the 2019 revision."

So previously 28 September 24:00 and 29 September 00:00 could describe the same time (unambiguously) but we now have to use 00:00

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343579

Postby XFool » September 28th, 2020, 8:15 pm

swill453 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:The command is: "We attack at 00:01 on Monday". If you say Midnight or either 00:00 or 24:00 it could be either at the beginning or the end of Monday. 00:01 is unambiguous.

00:00 is unambiguous. I agree saying midnight is ambiguous, this was mentioned upthread.

(24:00 doesn't exist :-).

Yes it does - it's the same time as 0000, but on a different day.

Nothing "ambiguous" about midnight - unless, possibly, you are within a polar circle. ;)

https://www.militarytime.us/midnight-military-time/

Midnight Military Time Explained
Military time is a unique timekeeping system that is based on the 24 hour clock as standardized by ISO 8601. This standard notates midnight as both 0000 and 2400 but advises that 0000 is preferred as it generally refers to the start of a day. Many military personnel will see both 0000 and 2400 being used as a reference to the beginning or the end of the day. Which format is used can generally be reserved for if the day or activity in question is ending or starting at that time.

0000 to notate midnight (12:00AM) when it is the START of the day/activity
2400 to notate midnight (12:00AM) when it is the END of the day/activity


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-hour_clock#Midnight_00:00_and_24:00

Midnight 00:00 and 24:00

In the 24-hour time notation, the day begins at midnight, 00:00, and the last minute of the day begins at 23:59. Where convenient, the notation 24:00 may also be used to refer to midnight at the end of a given date — that is, 24:00 of one day is the same time as 00:00 of the following day.


Enough already!

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343586

Postby XFool » September 28th, 2020, 8:27 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:"As of ISO 8601-1:2019 midnight may only be referred to as "00:00", corresponding to the beginning of a calendar day. Earlier versions of the standard allowed "24:00" corresponding to the end of a day, but this is explicitly disallowed by the 2019 revision."

So previously 28 September 24:00 and 29 September 00:00 could describe the same time (unambiguously) but we now have to use 00:00

OK - I give up!

According to RFC 3339: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3339#page-8

hours: 00 - 23
minutes: 00 - 59
seconds: 00 - 58, 00 - 59, 00- 60 (Leap seconds)

This applies, presumably, to The Internet. I am not plowing through ISO whatshisname. I seem to remember that, according to ISO standard, the week starts on Monday. But the traditional start for many remains Sunday. Likewise, 2400 will remain midnight to me! :lol:
Last edited by XFool on September 28th, 2020, 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

swill453
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343589

Postby swill453 » September 28th, 2020, 8:30 pm

XFool wrote:
swill453 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:The command is: "We attack at 00:01 on Monday". If you say Midnight or either 00:00 or 24:00 it could be either at the beginning or the end of Monday. 00:01 is unambiguous.

00:00 is unambiguous. I agree saying midnight is ambiguous, this was mentioned upthread.

(24:00 doesn't exist :-).

Yes it does - it's the same time as 0000, but on a different day.

24:00 isn't valid, according to the ISO standard.

Scott.

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343594

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 28th, 2020, 9:02 pm

To be fair though, it was until recently (2019)

torata
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343616

Postby torata » September 29th, 2020, 5:02 am

swill453 wrote:
(24:00 doesn't exist :-) )

Scott.


I live in a country where some bars and shops advertise their closing times as 25:00

torata

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343620

Postby johnhemming » September 29th, 2020, 6:10 am

torata wrote:I live in a country where some bars and shops advertise their closing times as 25:00


Do they mean that they dont close

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343685

Postby torata » September 29th, 2020, 11:51 am

johnhemming wrote:
torata wrote:I live in a country where some bars and shops advertise their closing times as 25:00


Do they mean that they dont close


No it means 1am

torata

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343687

Postby bungeejumper » September 29th, 2020, 12:06 pm

torata wrote:I live in a country where some bars and shops advertise their closing times as 25:00

Twenty-five o'clock. It has a certain ring to it, doesn't it?

Of course, the European Parliament has always preferred the alternative approach of stopping the clock at midnight if it can't get a deal agreed by the Which-ing Hour. ;)

BJ


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