NHS App

[swill453]

I guess the derivation is: when you download the app, you take it "onboard" and by running it you agreed to "whatever" - thus the onboarding process is what you did when you allowed it to download and run.

Simple, innit.

It's because you're taken "onboard" as a user of the app. It's commonplace in banking (and probably other) IT where users are "onboarded" all the time. I hated it and avoided using it when I could.

Scott.

[Nimrod103]

Actually 6s - it's to do with the IOS - if your iphone cannot take IOS 13.5 you cannot apply the app. Something to do with the bluetooth capabilities.

T7

It's more than a little ironic that the people who are most vulnerable to CV - the elderly and the poor - are the least likely to own a phone that can use the app.

The app is not designed to protect any user of it, vulnerable or not.

It is designed to protect the rest of society from the user by telling the user to isolate if they have been in close contact with an infected person or visited a place on the same day as an infected person.

And since it is designed to supplement Test and Trace, if that is working well then no problem as they will be contacted anyway - oh, what are those pink things in the sky?

And in the recent survey, only one in five said they would isolate if they were told to by the app.

[tjh290633]

I'm confused!
I'm sure when I installed it (android version), the app stated that it need to use location information, which I assumed meant GPS.
The FAQ states

The way the Android system handles exposure notifications means that both Bluetooth and location need to be turned on, and the Android system itself notifies you when you turn one or both off, rather than the Protect Scotland app. The onboarding process for Android users includes information about the use of location (it doesn’t use GPS), and the Android version of the app doesn’t have the same ‘tracing inactive’ feature that Apple phones does.

I've no idea what the jargon "onboarding process" means, but I don't understand how it can know location without GPS, although I guess the cell network can provide a relatively crude guide

--kiloran

It gets your location by you scanning the QR sign at the establishment which you are visiting. Have you not noticed them?

TJH

[UncleEbenezer]

It gets your location by you scanning the QR sign at the establishment which you are visiting. Have you not noticed them?

TJH

When I got the current phone, it asked me to review places I'd been, until I told it to shut up.

Very clearly it followed me around!

[AF62]

It gets your location by you scanning the QR sign at the establishment which you are visiting. Have you not noticed them?

Strictly speaking it doesn't get a location from the QR code it gets a data point which the app then uses to check against the list of data points of those who have reported themselves as infected. i.e. it doesn't care where it was, just that it was somewhere and you were both there on the same day.

When I got the current phone, it asked me to review places I'd been, until I told it to shut up.

Very clearly it followed me around!

Yes it did because you gave (I suspect) Google Maps background access to access your location - for goodness sake people, practice safe 'smart-phoning' by checking your permissions and seeing what you have given access to.

[Arborbridge]

It gets your location by you scanning the QR sign at the establishment which you are visiting. Have you not noticed them?

TJH

When I got the current phone, it asked me to review places I'd been, until I told it to shut up.

Very clearly it followed me around!

But that's nothing to do with the NHS app - it's normal google maps asking for feedback on where you have been.
"TESCO, Little Slobbering - know this place?" And they always want to know american things like whether there's a bathroom. Who the heck takes a bath in Tescos!

[stevensfo]

It gets your location by you scanning the QR sign at the establishment which you are visiting. Have you not noticed them?

Strictly speaking it doesn't get a location from the QR code it gets a data point which the app then uses to check against the list of data points of those who have reported themselves as infected. i.e. it doesn't care where it was, just that it was somewhere and you were both there on the same day.

When I got the current phone, it asked me to review places I'd been, until I told it to shut up.

Very clearly it followed me around!

Yes it did because you gave (I suspect) Google Maps background access to access your location - for goodness sake people, practice safe 'smart-phoning' by checking your permissions and seeing what you have given access to.

But if you keep the 'Location' function in Settings switched off as default (as I do), your apps can't use it.....can they?

I only switch mine on when I need a map.

Steve

[AF62]

It gets your location by you scanning the QR sign at the establishment which you are visiting. Have you not noticed them?

Strictly speaking it doesn't get a location from the QR code it gets a data point which the app then uses to check against the list of data points of those who have reported themselves as infected. i.e. it doesn't care where it was, just that it was somewhere and you were both there on the same day.

When I got the current phone, it asked me to review places I'd been, until I told it to shut up.

Very clearly it followed me around!

Yes it did because you gave (I suspect) Google Maps background access to access your location - for goodness sake people, practice safe 'smart-phoning' by checking your permissions and seeing what you have given access to.

But if you keep the 'Location' function in Settings switched off as default (as I do), your apps can't use it.....can they?

I only switch mine on when I need a map.

Steve

No the apps cannot use it if you turn the location off (unless you have annoyed MI5/CIA/etc.), but neither can they use it if you set the permissions not to allow access unless active in the foreground.

So you have a two stage process - 1. Open Maps then 2. Turn on location - and then the maps use location. And then you have a two stage process to turn that off so they cannot use location when the app is closed - 1. Turn off location then 2. Close Maps.

Whereas I have a one stage process as I have set Maps only to have permission to access when using - 1. Open maps (and it has access to location). And then a one stage process to turn off so it cannot use location when the app is closed - 1. Close Maps.

Why go through the two stage hassle and why not use the permissions within the software to achieve what you want it to do?

And with the use of permissions you can allow those apps that YOU control and YOU do want to be able to access location data to be able to do so, whereas the 'brute force' turn it off does not.

So for example I find it quite useful to be able to set location based reminders - when I arrive home then remind me to do X - which can be far more helpful than remind me to do X at Y time. I find it quite useful to have location based data added to photos. I find it quite handy that the Wetherspoons app knows which pub I am in when I want to order a pint. etc. etc. All of which *I* control when the app can access the location data through permissions.

[servodude]

But if you keep the 'Location' function in Settings switched off as default (as I do), your apps can't use it.....can they?

Yes that means that nothing can get your location from the 'Location' Services - which is the GPS and A-GPS (cell tower based approximate location)
- they can still use your IP address to work out where you are
- this is how your phone can know you're home, and where that is, even though your location services are off

- sd

[Mike4]

But if you keep the 'Location' function in Settings switched off as default (as I do), your apps can't use it.....can they?

Yes that means that nothing can get your location from the 'Location' Services - which is the GPS and A-GPS (cell tower based approximate location)
- they can still use your IP address to work out where you are
- this is how your phone can know you're home, and where that is, even though your location services are off

- sd

The thing I find disconcerting is the way my fone knows exactly where I've parked my van that day, as well as where home is!

(When I've continued my journey on foot/bike/taxi/train/whatever, that is.)

[AF62]

But if you keep the 'Location' function in Settings switched off as default (as I do), your apps can't use it.....can they?

Yes that means that nothing can get your location from the 'Location' Services - which is the GPS and A-GPS (cell tower based approximate location)
- they can still use your IP address to work out where you are
- this is how your phone can know you're home, and where that is, even though your location services are off

- sd

Or it just knows that you have connected to your home WiFi. Or it knows from the WiFI signals nearby. Or it knows from the Bluetooth signals nearby.

The thing I find disconcerting is the way my fone knows exactly where I've parked my van that day, as well as where home is!

(When I've continued my journey on foot/bike/taxi/train/whatever, that is.)

One easy way would be if you have it connected to Bluetooth and then it isn't - well you just got out of the van so mark it there. Or we were moving at that speed and now we are not, so mark it there. Or we could hear the engine running and now we can't so mark it there - and before anyone says, no they don't do that - some of the early Moto G phones did work out whether you were in the car from listening for the sound of the engine!

[servodude]

But if you keep the 'Location' function in Settings switched off as default (as I do), your apps can't use it.....can they?

Yes that means that nothing can get your location from the 'Location' Services - which is the GPS and A-GPS (cell tower based approximate location)
- they can still use your IP address to work out where you are
- this is how your phone can know you're home, and where that is, even though your location services are off

- sd

The thing I find disconcerting is the way my fone knows exactly where I've parked my van that day, as well as where home is!

(When I've continued my journey on foot/bike/taxi/train/whatever, that is.)

I know I've used the location services in the past for time tracking at different client's and I've generally been quite impressed with how it would infer I'd cycled rather than driven etc
- but to pick up jumping in to another car... there must be some indicator
Have you got a BT receiver in the car?

- sd

[servodude]

Or it just knows that you have connected to your home WiFi. Or it knows from the WiFI signals nearby. Or it knows from the Bluetooth signals nearby.

indeed
- but none of those encode the location per-se

- sd

[UncleEbenezer]

Do some Fools have vehicles that identify as wifi or bluetooth devices?

[servodude]

Do some Fools have vehicles that identify as wifi or bluetooth devices?

Sort of
- I have a BT receiver in the car for playing my phone through that is treated as a trusted device
- so that I can e.g. use it for maps or hands free without having to unlock it

There are more recent and integrated systems also

- sd

[AF62]

Or it just knows that you have connected to your home WiFi. Or it knows from the WiFI signals nearby. Or it knows from the Bluetooth signals nearby.

indeed
- but none of those encode the location per-se

- sd

But if I have location services turned on and can ‘see’ your WiFi then Google will know that WiFi service is ‘there’ so when your phone with location services turned off comes along and can ‘see’ that same WiFi then Google will know you are ‘there’.

And even without that, it will be pretty damn obvious that if you are connected to a WiFi signal overnight every night, then that is home. Turn on location services once, just once when connected to that WiFi, and now that location is nailed down - and that is if Google hasn’t got your address from some other service you signed up to.

[AF62]

Do some Fools have vehicles that identify as wifi or bluetooth devices?

Yes, I get in the car and the phone automatically connects to Bluetooth for phone calls, text messages, music, podcasts, maps, etc.

[jfgw]

It gets your location by you scanning the QR sign at the establishment which you are visiting. Have you not noticed them?

Strictly speaking it doesn't get a location from the QR code it gets a data point which the app then uses to check against the list of data points of those who have reported themselves as infected. i.e. it doesn't care where it was, just that it was somewhere and you were both there on the same day.

So, when I scanned a QR code earlier tonight, how come it told me that I had checked into The Swan, Little Totham?


Julian F. G. W.

[AF62]

It gets your location by you scanning the QR sign at the establishment which you are visiting. Have you not noticed them?

Strictly speaking it doesn't get a location from the QR code it gets a data point which the app then uses to check against the list of data points of those who have reported themselves as infected. i.e. it doesn't care where it was, just that it was somewhere and you were both there on the same day.

So, when I scanned a QR code earlier tonight, how come it told me that I had checked into The Swan, Little Totham?


Julian F. G. W.

Encoded into the QR code for you to see you had checked in to the correct place and they were not displaying the wrong poster.

But as before it doesn’t need to know *where* that is, only that you were at location 2876578 today. Then if anyone else who checked in to location 2876578 reports an infection, that information is sent to everyone’s phone but mine won’t make a match because I haven’t been there but yours will.

Test and Trace don’t know you were there today because that data doesn’t get sent to them.

[servodude]

Or it just knows that you have connected to your home WiFi. Or it knows from the WiFI signals nearby. Or it knows from the Bluetooth signals nearby.

indeed
- but none of those encode the location per-se

- sd

But if I have location services turned on and can ‘see’ your WiFi then Google will know that WiFi service is ‘there’ so when your phone with location services turned off comes along and can ‘see’ that same WiFi then Google will know you are ‘there’.

And even without that, it will be pretty damn obvious that if you are connected to a WiFi signal overnight every night, then that is home. Turn on location services once, just once when connected to that WiFi, and now that location is nailed down - and that is if Google hasn’t got your address from some other service you signed up to.

yes indeed I'm not in any disagreement with you
- google maintains a database of wifi SSID and MAC along with locations sourced from phone GPS
- and that is how getting a location works if your app has access to the location services

It used to be that if location services were off on the phone a call to lastLocation returned NULL - perhaps they've changed that
- in which case a reverse lookup of your IP address would allow an app to get a location (TBH probably from the same database!)
- though occasionally it throws complete clangers

having said that I've only experience of it as a third party developer - google apps (like maps) can probably get more precise and sensitive info

-sd