Perfidious Alba

[dave559]

What does [Alba] mean to a Scot? Is it a widely-used name? Part of the heritage you grow up with, that's all around you?

Alba is, as others have noted, the Gaelic name of Scotland. Most, if not all, people will be aware of the name, as it will have come up, amongst many others, in geography and history lessons at school as examples of placenames that have Gaelic, Norse, Pictish or other roots (and, unlike Alex Salmond, most of us will have been taught that it is pronounced more like al-a-ba (with the "b" somewhere more between "b" and "p")).

In more recent years, awareness of the name has increased, through the longstanding and fairly well known welcome in tourist leaflets "Fàilte gu Alba" (now also seen on road signs at border crossings), the creation of the Gaelic tv channel BBC Alba, and the increasing use of bilingual names for public bodies (although I expect most of them would panic were someone to actually try to communicate with them in Gaelic). I suspect that for most people, it's not very much more than that: part of the "background" heritage of the country, something that we are glad is now acknowledged and given some support, but mostly have no more than a casual interest in (eg, placenames).

Whether it has more meaning than that to individual people probably depends more on whether one is a (native) Gaelic speaker, or has Gaelic heritage, and, possibly not least, one's feelings and/or strength of feelings about independence.

[swill453]

most of us will have been taught that it is pronounced more like al-a-ba (with the "b" somewhere more between "b" and "p")

Nope, born, bred and lived in Scotland for all my 60 years, and didn't know it was pronounced that way until two days ago. And nobody I've spoken to knew it either.

Scott.

[kiloran]

most of us will have been taught that it is pronounced more like al-a-ba (with the "b" somewhere more between "b" and "p")).

Ah, but that's only when speaking Gaelic. When speaking english, it's simply Alba

After all, in english, the capital of France is Paris, not "Paree"
The capital of Bavaria is Munich, not München

--kiloran

[swill453]

most of us will have been taught that it is pronounced more like al-a-ba (with the "b" somewhere more between "b" and "p")).

Ah, but that's only when speaking Gaelic. When speaking english, it's simply Alba

After all, in english, the capital of France is Paris, not "Paree"
The capital of Bavaria is Munich, not München

But Lyon isn't Lion, and Calais isn't Cal-ace.

(there never was any logic to it...)

Scott.

[Lanark]

most of us will have been taught that it is pronounced more like al-a-ba (with the "b" somewhere more between "b" and "p")).

Ah, but that's only when speaking Gaelic. When speaking english, it's simply Alba

After all, in english, the capital of France is Paris, not "Paree"
The capital of Bavaria is Munich, not München

--kiloran

The word "Italia", when speaking English, is "Italy".

The word "España", when speaking English, is "Spain".

The word "Alba", when speaking English, is "SCOTLAND".

Using the word Alba as the name of a nationalist political party is incredibly tone deaf, it manages to insult both Gaelic speakers and Scots speakers.

The icing on the cake is that Salmond himself can't seem to pronounce it properly!

[Lanark]

most of us will have been taught that it is pronounced more like al-a-ba (with the "b" somewhere more between "b" and "p")

Nope, born, bred and lived in Scotland for all my 60 years, and didn't know it was pronounced that way until two days ago. And nobody I've spoken to knew it either.

Scott.

Me neither, but like the majority I speak English and Scots but not Gaelic.

I just looked up a 2020 Scots dictionary to be sure: Alba is not listed.

[TUK020]

Adding a broader geographic perspective:

Alba means dawn or sunrise in Italian or Romanian, but in most east European languages it is simply the plural of album.

[moorfield]

Its the old name for Scotland ('Albion' = 'Alba' in Teuchter speak)

A few companies employ the name up here - Alba Insurance, Alba Life, Alba Travel)

It really doesn't mean anything to me - i.e. it doesn't invoke waves of teary eyed partiotism in me

Is BBC Alba now going to have to "cancel" itself (to use the modern wokester vernacular) to avoid any accusations of bias ...?

[Lootman]

like the majority I speak English and Scots but not Gaelic.

There is a Scots language?

In my youth I had a girlfriend from rural North Aberdeenshire. I would go up there from time to time and could not understand a word people were saying. They could understand me, presumably because people on TV talk like me. But I barely had a clue what anyone was saying and my girlfriend had to translate.

But I was told it was a dialect and not a language, and every now and then I would recognise a word. I quite enjoyed the way it sounded even if I didn't have a clue what was going on. And I improved my Gay Gordons skills no end (no disrespect intended to any Gordon here).

[csearle]

Consider yourselves educated.

Thank you. C.

[UncleEbenezer]

I just looked up a 2020 Scots dictionary to be sure: Alba is not listed.

You should've looked in the albanac.

[Clariman]

There is a Scots language?

Yes there is. It developed from Northumbrian Anglo Saxon originally - in parallel with English.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History ... s_language

Obviously there is a huge amount of crossover. There are Scots words that come from French too, when that was the language of the Scottish Court.

C

[Lanark]

like the majority I speak English and Scots but not Gaelic.

There is a Scots language?

There is but most Scots only know a smattering of words. Only a small minority are fully fluent in the language, not surprising as it has been heavily suppressed for the last 200 years or so.

One sign of this was the vandalism of the Scots language wikipedia, which went unnoticed for years: https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/26/ ... edia_fake/

[Dod101]

like the majority I speak English and Scots but not Gaelic.

There is a Scots language?

There is but most Scots only know a smattering of words. Only a small minority are fully fluent in the language, not surprising as it has been heavily suppressed for the last 200 years or so.

One sign of this was the vandalism of the Scots language wikipedia, which went unnoticed for years: https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/26/ ... edia_fake/

This is actually a load of rubbish because what seems to be regarded as the 'Scots Language'is actually no more than a dialect of one small part of Scotland compared to another. Like most places, Scotland's dialects can change within a few miles. The only two languages spoken in Scotland are English (in various dialects) and Gaelic (and not very much of the latter)

Dod

[Lootman]

There is a Scots language?

There is but most Scots only know a smattering of words. Only a small minority are fully fluent in the language, not surprising as it has been heavily suppressed for the last 200 years or so.

One sign of this was the vandalism of the Scots language wikipedia, which went unnoticed for years: https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/26/ ... edia_fake/

This is actually a load of rubbish because what seems to be regarded as the 'Scots Language'is actually no more than a dialect of one small part of Scotland compared to another. Like most places, Scotland's dialects can change within a few miles. The only two languages spoken in Scotland are English (in various dialects) and Gaelic (and not very much of the latter)

That is the sense that I got (as a totally clueless outsider, admittedly).

The folks in Turriff didn't seem to feel any verbal affinity to the folks in Fraserburgh or Peterhead. I could not understand any of them but it seemed to me that they could not understand each other either, or at least didn't like each other very much.

[Dod101]

There is but most Scots only know a smattering of words. Only a small minority are fully fluent in the language, not surprising as it has been heavily suppressed for the last 200 years or so.

One sign of this was the vandalism of the Scots language wikipedia, which went unnoticed for years: https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/26/ ... edia_fake/

This is actually a load of rubbish because what seems to be regarded as the 'Scots Language'is actually no more than a dialect of one small part of Scotland compared to another. Like most places, Scotland's dialects can change within a few miles. The only two languages spoken in Scotland are English (in various dialects) and Gaelic (and not very much of the latter)

That is the sense that I got (as a totally clueless outsider, admittedly).

The folks in Turriff didn't seem to feel any verbal affinity to the folks in Fraserburgh or Peterhead. I could not understand any of them but it seemed to me that they could not understand each other either, or at least didn't like each other very much.

Snorvey is as I understand it not that far from either Fraserburgh or Peterhead (or far that matter Turriff) but I doubt that he understands their dialect any more than I do. This idea of a Scots language is just a nonsense. Mind you, that part of Scotland is a bit weird. As you say they do not like each other very much either.

Dod

[bungeejumper]

Turriff on the other had is deep into Aberdeenshire farming country and I'd struggle to understand the dialect. I'd probably have opt for the Jurassic Park approach to language recognition - i.e. filling in the missing DNA (words) with various assumptions of my own to make a complete sentence.

LOL, this softy cosseted English needs the subtitles just to watch the BBC programme about Edinburgh Zoo and the Highland Wildlife Park. Maybe it's just that the females all seem to speak with that affected lisp that seems to be so popular these days, so that all the thibilanth get lotht. (The males, mysteriously, don't.) But an underlayer of regional differentials (fair enough.....) was enough to pitch me firmly into Bill Bryson territory until I rediscovered the long-forgotten SUBTL button in the corner of the remote. Aaah, that's better.

I imagine the difficulty goes the other way when it comes to deciphering Duddlay or Cridelay Eeth? Or deep Cornwall, or Fannet? The last I heard, the subtitles people were still working on rural Ulster.

[Lanark]

This is actually a load of rubbish because what seems to be regarded as the 'Scots Language'is actually no more than a dialect of one small part of Scotland compared to another. Like most places, Scotland's dialects can change within a few miles. The only two languages spoken in Scotland are English (in various dialects) and Gaelic (and not very much of the latter)

Dod

This is a common misconception, the Scots language is internationally accepted and there is a published dictionary of the language, the DSL funded by the Scottish Government. https://dsl.ac.uk/about-dsl/
There are dialects of Scots in different areas just as there are dialects of English in England but that doesn't make 'English' not a language.

Further,there are dialects of the "English" language widely spoken in Scotland, but again that does not prevent Scots from being a separate language.

One thing I find very strange is that Scottish people are some of the most vociferous deniers that there is any such thing as a Scots language, Im guessing this runs into a certain sensitivity about their own national identity if they can't speak much of the language.

[Dod101]

This is actually a load of rubbish because what seems to be regarded as the 'Scots Language'is actually no more than a dialect of one small part of Scotland compared to another. Like most places, Scotland's dialects can change within a few miles. The only two languages spoken in Scotland are English (in various dialects) and Gaelic (and not very much of the latter)

Dod

This is a common misconception, the Scots language is internationally accepted and there is a published dictionary of the language, the DSL funded by the Scottish Government. https://dsl.ac.uk/about-dsl/
There are dialects of Scots in different areas just as there are dialects of English in England but that doesn't make 'English' not a language.

Further,there are dialects of the "English" language widely spoken in Scotland, but again that does not prevent Scots from being a separate language.

One thing I find very strange is that Scottish people are some of the most vociferous deniers that there is any such thing as a Scots language, Im guessing this runs into a certain sensitivity about their own national identity if they can't speak much of the language.

If it is being funded by the Scottish Government that just about says it all.

Dod

[stewamax]

Ahh... the tentacles of Fishy Salmond reach even to the Times 30th March cryptic crossword.
Q: 2 Down - Fish from Scotland served with heart (8)
A: Albacore