Perfidious Alba

[tjh290633]

When I did my National Service our intake at Padgate included Big Frazer from Airdrie. His accent was unintelligible to most. On the other hand, MacPhie from Helsmdale was very clear, lyrical, almost.

TJH

[Clariman]

This is actually a load of rubbish because what seems to be regarded as the 'Scots Language'is actually no more than a dialect of one small part of Scotland compared to another. Like most places, Scotland's dialects can change within a few miles. The only two languages spoken in Scotland are English (in various dialects) and Gaelic (and not very much of the latter)

Dod, you are wrong. Scots is/was a language that developed from Anglo-Saxon, just as English did. It would be just as valid for you to describe English as being a dialect of Scots - as it would to describe Scots as a dialect of English.

For the record, I am English and have never voted SNP, but there is a tremendous amount of ignorance about Scottish history and its culture. It has been looked at through the lens of British/English history for hundreds of years. You see it in small things. For example the first monarch of Britain was James VI of Scotland, but in England he is known as the James I. OK, fair enough, he was the first James to be monarch of Britain. On that basis, our present monarch should be Queen Elizabeth I because she is the first Elizabeth to be queen of Britain... but strangely enough she is Queen Elizabeth II. That might sound like a petty point to make, but it is indicative of how history of these islands is viewed.

And if one wants to be snooty about language and their origins, Gaelic and Welsh are the oldest indigenous languages to these islands: the former from a Q-Celtic family and the latter from a P-Celtic family of languages. There was no English spoken here until the 5th century and it didn't sound anything like modern English. I was on a seminar yesterday where it was said that the Vikings and Anglo-Saxons in the 6th and 7th Century could probably understand each others language because they had not diverged that much by then. The Celtic languages on these islands are 1000s of years older.

[JamesMuenchen]

Dod, you are wrong. Scots is/was a language that developed from Anglo-Saxon, just as English did. It would be just as valid for you to describe English as being a dialect of Scots - as it would to describe Scots as a dialect of English.

Exactly. Which is why some of us view it all as the same language known as English.

When I was a kid we were proudly taught that at one point the court language of Scotland was English (or Inglis) when the court language of England was French.

For example the first monarch of Britain was James VI of Scotland, but in England he is known as the James I. OK, fair enough, he was the first James to be monarch of Britain. On that basis, our present monarch should be Queen Elizabeth I because she is the first Elizabeth to be queen of Britain... but strangely enough she is Queen Elizabeth II. That might sound like a petty point to make, but it is indicative of how history of these islands is viewed.

And was the reason behind the bombing of few pillar boxes with ERII badges by ScotsNats.

[swill453]

And was the reason behind the bombing of few pillar boxes with ERII badges by ScotsNats.

And why the QE2 ship wasn't named the QEII.

Scott.

[Alaric]

And why the QE2 ship wasn't named the QEII.

Was there not a later convention than James 1 of England that the UK number would be the higher of the English and Scottish numbers? So if the heir was ever called Macbeth, he would be Macbeth the second.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_monarchs

[Dod101]

This is actually a load of rubbish because what seems to be regarded as the 'Scots Language'is actually no more than a dialect of one small part of Scotland compared to another. Like most places, Scotland's dialects can change within a few miles. The only two languages spoken in Scotland are English (in various dialects) and Gaelic (and not very much of the latter)

Dod, you are wrong. Scots is/was a language that developed from Anglo-Saxon, just as English did. It would be just as valid for you to describe English as being a dialect of Scots - as it would to describe Scots as a dialect of English.

For the record, I am English and have never voted SNP, but there is a tremendous amount of ignorance about Scottish history and its culture. r.

Well I do not regard the so called Scots language (which I know quite a bit about) as a language as such. And please dot not try to tell me about Scottish history. There is a lot of ignorance about it I agree but I suspect I know rather more of it than quite a few. I assume you like living in Scotland otherwise you would not be here.

At the time when our Queen became Queen in 1952 there was lot of controversy because she is in fact Queen Elizabeth 1 of the UK but the English foisted Queen Elizabeth the Second on to us Scots. I was anti QE2 at the time and probably still am. I am a patriotic Scot but definitely not in the SNP camp so please do not start trying to tell me about Scottish history.

Al;l sides of my family have been Scottish since at least 1785 or so and quite possibly before then. I may have some Viking or at least Scandinavian blood because my father's family all came from near John o' Groats in the fra north east corner of Scotland.

Dod

[Lanark]

Ach weel, facts are chiels that winna ding an downa be disputed.

[Dod101]

Ach weel, facts are chiels that winna ding an downa be disputed.

Ay ye're richt there Laddie

Dod

[Clariman]

Well I do not regard the so called Scots language (which I know quite a bit about) as a language as such. And please dot not try to tell me about Scottish history. There is a lot of ignorance about it I agree but I suspect I know rather more of it than quite a few. I assume you like living in Scotland otherwise you would not be here.

Dod,
Apologies if my comment about ignorance of Scottish history sounded like it was targeted at you personally. That wasn't my intention - I'm sorry. I was just trying to make the point that we often see the history of the 'provinces' through the lens of the UK.

Of course I like living in Scotland - I didn't get much choice when my parents moved here to be fair. The point I was making about me being English and never voting for Independence was to disarm any argument from others along the lines of "you're just saying that about Scots as a language because you're Scottish and probably vote SNP".

My unusually vociferous response to this thread was partly down the to the fact that I am currently preparing a talk on early medieval Scotland, so it is uppermost in my mind at the moment. Yes I need to get a life

All the best
Clariman

[Dod101]

Well I do not regard the so called Scots language (which I know quite a bit about) as a language as such. And please dot not try to tell me about Scottish history. There is a lot of ignorance about it I agree but I suspect I know rather more of it than quite a few. I assume you like living in Scotland otherwise you would not be here.

Dod,
Apologies if my comment about ignorance of Scottish history sounded like it was targeted at you personally. That wasn't my intention - I'm sorry. I was just trying to make the point that we often see the history of the 'provinces' through the lens of the UK.

Of course I like living in Scotland - I didn't get much choice when my parents moved here to be fair. The point I was making about me being English and never voting for Independence was to disarm any argument from others along the lines of "you're just saying that about Scots as a language because you're Scottish and probably vote SNP".

My unusually vociferous response to this thread was partly down the to the fact that I am currently preparing a talk on early medieval Scotland, so it is uppermost in my mind at the moment. Yes I need to get a life

All the best
Clariman

Thanks for your full response. No need, but apologies accepted. I think a talk on medieval Scotland would be an interesting topic. At our local history association we had a talk from a prof from Stirling University on the murder of James 1 of Scotland in the Blackfriars Monastery in Perth in 1437 and that set me off researching the sites of the old monastries in Perth. In a burial ground on the site, I think, of the Greyfriars Monastery, there is a memorial to none other than William Farquar, who became the first resident of Singapore, meaning he was the senior East India Company man there up until about 1824. Amazing where things can lead.

Dod

[UncleEbenezer]

My unusually vociferous response to this thread was partly down the to the fact that I am currently preparing a talk on early medieval Scotland, so it is uppermost in my mind at the moment. Yes I need to get a life
Clariman

Quite a few years back, I was in a production of Verdi's opera based on Shakespeare's scottish play. Around the beginning of rehearsals, our producer showed us a documentary (if that's the right word for historical reconstruction from limited record) called "The Real Macbeth".

Is that anywhere near your subject, and will your talk be available online?

[Clariman]

My unusually vociferous response to this thread was partly down the to the fact that I am currently preparing a talk on early medieval Scotland, so it is uppermost in my mind at the moment. Yes I need to get a life
Clariman

Quite a few years back, I was in a production of Verdi's opera based on Shakespeare's scottish play. Around the beginning of rehearsals, our producer showed us a documentary (if that's the right word for historical reconstruction from limited record) called "The Real Macbeth".

Is that anywhere near your subject, and will your talk be available online?

Macbeth is about 150 to 200 years too late. My talk is more about the lead up to the formation of Alba, which was around mid 9th Century. I think earlier in the thread I might have said 10th Century for Alba but was probably mid to late 9th century. No this topic won't be recorded - at least to the best of my knowledge.

[dave559]

it's not very much more than that: part of the "background" heritage of the country,

Background heritage of some of the country (i.e. Chookters)

I mean you don't see the Westminster government foisting the Cornish language on the rest of England do you?

That was actually a quite carefully worded sentence on my part: at one time, albeit hundreds of years ago, Gaelic was the predominant language throughout most of what is now Scotland, apart from parts of the far north and some of the islands, and the southeast, and the origins of many placenames show this (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic#History). (And, yes, that is a little more geographically widespread than I had also formerly realised.)

I made no claim about how many people nowadays have Gaelic in their own family or community heritage more recently than that, the answer to that obviously being only around 1% nowadays, but even only a few generations back somewhat higher than that, in certain locations, even including around Glasgow, where many Highlanders moved to find work.

Even though I have no real interest myself in picking up any more than a few Gaelic words by osmosis, I do think it's perfectly reasonable to help keep the language alive (and perhaps widen knowledge of it) through bilingual signs, reasonable cultural support (such as BBC Alba and Radio nan Gàidheal), etc.

The comparison with Cornish is not quite the same: Cornwall being only a small part of what is now England, whereas, as noted above, Gaelic was widespread throughout most parts of Scotland at one point. On the other hand, I would be rather disappointed if government bodies and other organisations in Cornwall didn't go in for billingual signs, at least, both as an acknowledgement of history and culture, and to help support the reviving of the language.

[Dod101]

it's not very much more than that: part of the "background" heritage of the country,

Background heritage of some of the country (i.e. Chookters)

I mean you don't see the Westminster government foisting the Cornish language on the rest of England do you?

That was actually a quite carefully worded sentence on my part: at one time, albeit hundreds of years ago, Gaelic was the predominant language throughout most of what is now Scotland, apart from parts of the far north and some of the islands, and the southeast, and the origins of many placenames show this (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic#History). (And, yes, that is a little more geographically widespread than I had also formerly realised.)

I made no claim about how many people nowadays have Gaelic in their own family or community heritage more recently than that, the answer to that obviously being only around 1% nowadays, but even only a few generations back somewhat higher than that, in certain locations, even including around Glasgow, where many Highlanders moved to find work.

Even though I have no real interest myself in picking up any more than a few Gaelic words by osmosis, I do think it's perfectly reasonable to help keep the language alive (and perhaps widen knowledge of it) through bilingual signs, reasonable cultural support (such as BBC Alba and Radio nan Gàidheal), etc.

The comparison with Cornish is not quite the same: Cornwall being only a small part of what is now England, whereas, as noted above, Gaelic was widespread throughout most parts of Scotland at one point. On the other hand, I would be rather disappointed if government bodies and other organisations in Cornwall didn't go in for billingual signs, at least, both as an acknowledgement of history and culture, and to help support the reviving of the language.

With respect I think most of that is a lot of nonsense. What do you think is a)the most common second language in Scotland? and b)the most pressing issue? Answers are of course Polish and probably employment. What makes you think that writing on Police cars all over the country the name for Police in Gaelic and on the Perth & Kinross website (and no doubt most other Councils as well) their name in Gaelic is going to promote the Gaelic?
language? If you go to the north west at least you will find road signs with about ten lines, half of which mean nothing to the population and simply cause confusion and uncertainty. Trying to promote Gaelic is all very well but I am sure that is not the way to do it. learning any language is by the spoken word not by a series of letters on a bill board for instance.

Dod

[JamesMuenchen]

to promote the Gaelic?

I find calling it "the Gaelic" is a horrible affectation. I hope it's not catching on.

I think Dod's was a typo

[Dod101]

to promote the Gaelic?

I find calling it "the Gaelic" is a horrible affectation. I hope it's not catching on.

I think Dod's was a typo

Only used it once and it was late! You are right. And writing of affectations, the whole idea of trying to promote Gaelic as a spoken language is a bit of an affectation.

Dod

[JamesMuenchen]

If you go to the north west at least you will find road signs with about ten lines, half of which mean nothing to the population and simply cause confusion and uncertainty.

This is so true. Funnily enough, the driving exam is only available in English and Welsh yet apparently there are British drivers who can't understand a sign saying "Edinburgh".

It's entirely for the tourists and ego-maniacs.

[Clariman]

That was actually a quite carefully worded sentence on my part: at one time, albeit hundreds of years ago, Gaelic was the predominant language throughout most of what is now Scotland, apart from parts of the far north and some of the islands, and the southeast, and the origins of many placenames show this (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic#History). (And, yes, that is a little more geographically widespread than I had also formerly realised.)

Gaelic was the main language of Argyll for thousands of years and became the language of Alba in the middle of the 9th Century, so was the language of Scotland in Argyll and everywhere north of Fife. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been the main language of the Central Belt and the Scottish Borders, where there was a strong Anglo-Saxon influence - and was never part of Alba. As I think you said, in the 19th and 20th centuries there were significant Gaelic speaking communities in Glasgow, because many native Gaelic speakers came there for work.

The comparison with Cornish is not quite the same: Cornwall being only a small part of what is now England, whereas, as noted above, Gaelic was widespread throughout most parts of Scotland at one point. On the other hand, I would be rather disappointed if government bodies and other organisations in Cornwall didn't go in for billingual signs, at least, both as an acknowledgement of history and culture, and to help support the reviving of the language.

Actually the argument for Cornish (and Welsh) is even stronger in some ways than it is for Gaelic. Before the Angles and Saxons came over from Germany in around the 4th or 5th century, all of modern day England (to the best of my knowledge) was occupied by Britons, who spoke a P-Celtic language which is related to modern-day Welsh. Cornish comes from that ancient heritage too and predates English in this island by 100s or 1000s of years. There are vestiges of it in Manx and some Cumbrian words too (which Dod will probably call dialect ).

Dod seems somewhat against the promotion of the Gaelic language in Scotland. I used to feel the same way. I'm a pragmatist - life moves on, you have to adjust. If Gaelic is dying then that is sad but hey-ho - lots of languages die out. However, I changed my view when I studied Scottish History and I realised that it wasn't just a language - it was part of a culture - a fantastic culture with an important history. Furthermore, there was a systematic attempt to wipe out much of the Gaelic culture and language after the Jacobite rebellions in the 18th Century. And in the 19th Century, there was outright racism against those of Gaelic descent - amongst senior educated figures. Read the works of Pinkerton for example.

So I absolutely stand up for Gaelic being preserved. It is a hugely important part of Scotland's story.

Clariman

[stewamax]

Scots is/was a language that developed from Anglo-Saxon, just as English did. It would be just as valid for you to describe English as being a dialect of Scots - as it would to describe Scots as a dialect of English.....
And if one wants to be snooty about language and their origins, Gaelic and Welsh are the oldest indigenous languages to these islands: the former from a Q-Celtic family and the latter from a P-Celtic family of languages. There was no English spoken here until the 5th century and it didn't sound anything like modern English. I was on a seminar yesterday where it was said that the Vikings and Anglo-Saxons in the 6th and 7th Century could probably understand each others language because they had not diverged that much by then. The Celtic languages on these islands are 1000s of years older.

Yes. And it seems little known that Common Celtic, the parent language of the Q-Celtic (Goidelic - the Gaelic variants) and and P-Celtic (Brythonic - the Welsh variants) was once the first or second language for most of Europe (excluding Germany, Scandinavia and Italy) and the Middle East.
And Old Welsh was spoken in the Gododdin people's country that stretched from the Scottish Central Region to Hadrian's Wall.
All until those pesky Vikings (with Old Norse) and Germans (with Old English) came pushing their languages southwards and westwards.

[Dod101]

I am only against the promotion of Gaelic in Scotland because I think there are a lot more important things to worry about. And I am sure most native Gaelic speakers (there will still be a few) will be either be very old and will die out, or young people, most of whom want to move away or will move away to University and so on and who will never use it. I love the music and the culture of the west highlands which is of course based on Gaelic and the old way of life but apart from the landscape, the area has changed hugely over the last 50 or 60 years since I first knew it. And not for the better.

In the far north east corner of Scotland, in Caithness, there are mostly Norse place names and I doubt that there has been much Gaelic there (if ever) since the time of the Viking invasions. A long time ago, when I lived and worked in Hong Kong we had a Norwegian customer and my father, who was born on Fair Isle but went to school on the island of Stroma and the Miller Academy in Thurso, had an accent not very different. His father and that side of his family were natives of that bit of Scotland. Even today there is a very distinct local accent and not a trace of Gaelic.

Gaelic is an ideal subject for the SNP to promote. It will garner some approval and will be a pleasant distraction from having to worry about education, health, the economy and all the other things that a government is normally expected to do.

Dod