Perfidious Alba

[stewamax]

Until those pesky Vikings (with Old Norse) ... came pushing their languages southwards and westwards.

Also not to be forgotten that they first picked off Shetland and Orkney and came right round the top of Scotland to the Western Isles. The Old Norse influence is still there in the spoken dialects, particularly in Shetland, even in the intonation when they are speaking English. It is almost as if the Vikings slowly enclosed Scotland from the top down. The totally-different Gaelic later took over in the Western isles.

[UncleEbenezer]

Gaelic is an ideal subject for the SNP to promote. It will garner some approval and will be a pleasant distraction from having to worry about education, health, the economy and all the other things that a government is normally expected to do.

Dod

I'd say the level of promotion is entirely appropriate. Support cultural heritage, but don't go OTT by making it a barrier to progress - e.g. making it compulsory somewhere (as reports occasionally suggest happens in Wales).

In regard to my original question, I'm getting that Alba as a party name is in the tradition of Mebyon Kernow or Plaid Cymru.

[stewamax]

Support cultural heritage, but don't go OTT by making it a barrier to progress - e.g. making it compulsory somewhere (as reports occasionally suggest happens in Wales).

I think 'compulsory' in general job vacancy adverts would be treading on thin legal ice, but - nudge nudge wink wink - it is no different from having attended Eton or Harrow when applying to one of the blue-blood investment banks; you will be one of the boys.

In regard to my original question, I'm getting that Alba as a party name is in the tradition of Mebyon Kernow or Plaid Cymru.

And speaking of the boys, the sexist Mebyon Kernow should rename themselves as it means Sons of Cornwall - perhaps to Pobel [people] Kernow or Fleghes [children] Kernow.

[Clariman]

In the far north east corner of Scotland, in Caithness, there are mostly Norse place names and I doubt that there has been much Gaelic there (if ever) since the time of the Viking invasions.

That's an interesting question. Before the Picts merged with the Gaels of Dal Riata, the Picts ruled up to Caithness and to Orkney and Shetland. Indeed, their over-kingdom was likely based in Moray or Inverness. Caithness is actually named after the Pictish Kingdom, Cait; one of seven kingdoms. While we cannot 100% identify all of them, there is no doubt Cait was Caithness and Fib was Fyfe. A rough layout can be seen here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts#/me ... Fidach.png

You are correct that there are many Norse names in Caithness and Sutherland, but Gaelic was widely spoken there in the 17th, 18th and 19th Centuries, despite repeated attempts by the Government, the Church of Scotland and the Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge (SPCK) to replace it with English. The SPCK eventually relented, IIRC, and allow Gaelic but that was a long time later. My wife's own ancestors come from Caithness and Sutherland and we can tell from the 19th Century census records that some of them only spoke Gaelic and some spoke Gaelic and English. So check out the census records and you'll see Gaelic was spoken there.

Now what language was spoken there at the formation of Alba was probably a moving target (9th and 10th Centuries). I'd imagine that Pictish and Gaelic were spoken, for sure. Norse invaders were taking over the Western Isles and Orkney and Shetland ... and would do so in Caithness too no doubt. Whether that entirely replaced Gaelic I would have my doubts.

Even today there is a very distinct local accent and not a trace of Gaelic.

If there is no trace of Gaelic then that just shows how successful the post-Jacobite rebellion laws, the SPCK, and the Government of the days were. All followed by the Highland Clearances and mid-19th century famine.

Gaelic is an ideal subject for the SNP to promote. It will garner some approval and will be a pleasant distraction from having to worry about education, health, the economy and all the other things that a government is normally expected to do.

To be fair, I don't think Gaelic is any bigger focus for the SNP than it was for Labour or other parties when they formed part of the Scottish Government. Let's hope that it remains apolitical, but you've proven why I felt the need to say that I supported Gaelic language, despite being English and never voting SNP. You are making it political. To me it is historical and cultural.

C

[Dod101]

You are correct that there are many Norse names in Caithness and Sutherland, but Gaelic was widely spoken there in the 17th, 18th and 19th Centuries, despite repeated attempts by the Government, the Church of Scotland and the Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge (SPCK) to replace it with English. The SPCK eventually relented, IIRC, and allow Gaelic but that was a long time later. My wife's own ancestors come from Caithness and Sutherland and we can tell from the 19th Century census records that some of them only spoke Gaelic and some spoke Gaelic and English. So check out the census records and you'll see Gaelic was spoken there.

Now what language was spoken there at the formation of Alba was probably a moving target (9th and 10th Centuries). I'd imagine that Pictish and Gaelic were spoken, for sure. Norse invaders were taking over the Western Isles and Orkney and Shetland ... and would do so in Caithness too no doubt. Whether that entirely replaced Gaelic I would have my doubts.

Even today there is a very distinct local accent and not a trace of Gaelic.

If there is no trace of Gaelic then that just shows how successful the post-Jacobite rebellion laws, the SPCK, and the Government of the days were. All followed by the Highland Clearances and mid-19th century famine.
[
C

I am interested in your apparently authoritative comments on Gaelic being spoken in Caithness. For all I know you may well be right but I have extensively studied the Old Parish Registers (back to around the mid 18th century) and the census records from 1841 for my family history but almost exclusively in Canisbay Parish which includes the area down the east coast for only 7/8 miles, well before we reach Wick, and along the north coast to about Castleton or just to the east of. It also includes Stroma. I have many ancestors buried in Canisbay churchyard and visit most years. I have never there come across any sign of Gaelic but then I do not know what I would expect to find. The OPRs are all in English. There were not a lot of clearances around there, much more to the west in Sutherland and of course to the south around the Duke of Sutherland's estates rather than the Sinclair Lairds where I am talking of. There is quite extensive diggings for brochs etc at Freswick Bay as well as elsewhere. Were these Pictish? I came across a lot of Pictish stuff on the Black Isle, very much further south.

Interesting.

Dod

[GrahamPlatt]

It’d be a pretty good name for a Highland Indian restaurant that - The Dal Raita.

[Clariman]

I am interested in your apparently authoritative comments on Gaelic being spoken in Caithness. For all I know you may well be right but I have extensively studied the Old Parish Registers (back to around the mid 18th century) and the census records from 1841 for my family history but almost exclusively in Canisbay Parish which includes the area down the east coast for only 7/8 miles, well before we reach Wick, and along the north coast to about Castleton or just to the east of. It also includes Stroma. I have many ancestors buried in Canisbay churchyard and visit most years. I have never there come across any sign of Gaelic but then I do not know what I would expect to find. The OPRs are all in English. There were not a lot of clearances around there, much more to the west in Sutherland and of course to the south around the Duke of Sutherland's estates rather than the Sinclair Lairds where I am talking of. There is quite extensive diggings for brochs etc at Freswick Bay as well as elsewhere. Were these Pictish? I came across a lot of Pictish stuff on the Black Isle, very much further south.
Interesting.

I think the best way to check this out would be to look at the 1891 Census for Scotland, because it recorded whether or not someone spoke Gaelic or English or both. https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/ ... 891-census

Go onto https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ and browse some 1891 census records for places in Caithness and see what you find. My wife's ancestors came from Golspie (Sutherland) and Latheron (Caithness) and the ones I have been able to check were Gaelic speakers. Caithness and Sutherland are so close that it seems inconceivable to me that one would be Gaelic speaking and the other would not.

I am not a place-names expert, but I see some common Gaelic place-name components in Caithness e.g. Inver- being Gaelic for mouth of a river. The equivalent in Pictish and Welsh is Aber - as in Aberdeen and Aberystwyth. Others worth looking out for are "Kil" meaning church, "Kin" meaning "head of", and "dun" which means fort. All are usually Gaelic.

You ask if brochs were Pictish. Good question. When I was a boy they were often described as "Pictish Brochs" but they are in fact iron-age, but I think some may have been built in the early years AD. There is evidence of later Pictish activity at some of them.

As you have said, there is a huge amount of Pictish stuff around the Black Isle. They had a monastery at Portmahomack and an early church at Rosemarkie. The Picts became Christians by the end of the 7th Century and were aligned to the Iona church of St Columba and his followers. Iona, of course, was in Gaelic Dal Riata territory so the language of the church in Pictland would have been primarily Gaelic and that is probably one of the reasons that Gaelic became the language of Alba rather than Pictish.

What an interesting chat.

[Clariman]

Dod,

I've just found this and it might show than you and I are both correct

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-17515935

In 1881, 8.8% of Caithness's population spoke Gaelic, so it was in the minority then, but considered to be native. So that would explain why you hadn't come across it. It also says that some parishes had a much higher percentage of Gaelic speakers and lists Latheron (where my wife's family was from) as being one of them, with 28.7% speaking it in 1881.

This quote from the article is particularly interesting;

The figures seem to support much earlier writings which suggest that in the 18th Century large parts of Caithness - including Wick, Halkirk and Reay - were predominately Gaelic.

In 1707 a presbytery reported to the General Assembly Committee for the Highland Libraries that "there are seven parishes in Caithness, where the Irish (Gaelic) language is used, viz. Thurso, Halkirg, Rhae, Lathrone, Ffar, Week, Duirness.

Interesting indeed.

[Dod101]

Thanks Clariman. You know much more about the very early history than I do but I am quite well up on Scottish history post 1314 say and am well versed in the post 1746 history. In fact I have always had the impression that, certainly beyond Golspie there was not much suppression required by the Hanoverian troops post Culloden. It was obvious that around Inverness and Beauly with the Frasers of that part being very pro Jacobean and then west and north west that the real damage was done by Butcher Cumberland and his troops, followed by General Wade constructing a lot of cross country roads (mainly for the military). Telford came along after that building some nice bridges (as did Wade of course) and again improving some of the roads and he built a new harbour at Wick for the herring fishing. I do not think there was any need for either Wade or the Hanoverian troops as far north as that.

Your latest post is fascinating. As I said, I concentrated my research on Canisbay which is in the extreme north east corner and it looks as if the Gaelic speakers were quite concentrated in particular areas, as the article says, mostly to the west. The corner where my family came from was always much more stronly influenced by Norse words and I guess the connection with Orkney which was Scandinavian until maybe the 13th century? Funny they should use the spelling Week, presumably for today's Wick because that is how my cousin with as broad a Caithness accent as you are likely to find, pronounces it, not as in our seven day 'week' but with a long e pronounced as in e for elephant

I have been going to Caithness originally with my parents since about 1947 and have never seen it in the least like say the North West Highlands. It simply does not have that Gaelic 'highland' feel to it. The only thing they had in common was the peat stack for every house.

Dod

[Clariman]

It’d be a pretty good name for a Highland Indian restaurant that - The Dal Raita.

Being pedantic on geography, Dal Raita would be an Argyll restaurant rather than a Highland one. Highlanders ate al fresco and had Pict-nics

[swill453]

It’d be a pretty good name for a Highland Indian restaurant that - The Dal Raita.

Being pedantic on geography, Dal Raita would be an Argyll restaurant rather than a Highland one. Highlanders ate al fresco and had Pict-nics

Argyll is still on the north side of the Highland Boundary Fault though

Scott.