An unusual exchange

[Howyoudoin]

I noticed that there had been someone living rough under the bridge near me a few weeks but put it out of mind, whilst thinking ‘feck, it’s got a bit cold again recently’.

Fueled by a couple of pints today I thought I’d approach as I could see he was in attendance.

‘Hey’ I said, walking up to him.

He was eating a cup of pasta and lifted his head to smile.

‘Can I help you at all?’, I said reaching into my back pocket for notes.

‘Ah no man, I’m good today thanks’

That knocked me off my stride. He’s American, bearded, very young, only late teens, early 20s.

‘You don’t want any money?’

‘I’m good today thank you’

This wasn’t the conversation that happened in my head beforehand and I had a few beers in my bag from shopping so . . .

‘Ok, would you like a beer?’

His eyes opened up like Gollum.

‘Drugs?’, he said.

‘No, not drugs, beer’, I said, showing him.

‘Thanks mate, Not for me’.

‘OK, well take care buddy’.

I walked away flabbergasted. A homeless guy that wants no money or beer.

Bang goes my good deed for the day. Would you have done anything differently?

HYD

[GrahamPlatt]

Undercover agent

[Howyoudoin]

Undercover agent

I’d love that to be true but can’t think of anything that needs investigating where he is and why that couldn’t be done from a nearby flat.

HYD

[Lootman]

I have more respect for panhandlers who are honest and say they want the money for drugs.

I once offered an untouched package of fish and chips to a homeless person holding up a sign begging for "money for food". He turned it down.

I also offered a full pepperoni pizza to another homeless guy begging for food and, again, he rejected it.

Maybe both were vegetarian junkies?

[UncleEbenezer]

Thinking back to when I was sleeping rough, ...

I wouldn't have taken your money. I had money ample for all my needs short of a place to live. Even if you'd offered that I'd've needed to avoid a longer-term commitment (like the six months minimum on a normal rental) 'cos I needed the flexibility to move when I found a new job (in the event my next job was the one in Italy - so a long-distance move).

I might have accepted beer, but I don't know. It might've depended how I felt at that moment, and whether you seemed like someone I'd enjoy chatting with. On balance very likely not: taking generosity from strangers is actually harder when it feels like charity than if we meet as equals and you offer me a drink.

[Howyoudoin]

Thinking back to when I was sleeping rough, ...

I wouldn't have taken your money. I had money ample for all my needs short of a place to live. Even if you'd offered that I'd've needed to avoid a longer-term commitment (like the six months minimum on a normal rental) 'cos I needed the flexibility to move when I found a new job (in the event my next job was the one in Italy - so a long-distance move).

I might have accepted beer, but I don't know. It might've depended how I felt at that moment, and whether you seemed like someone I'd enjoy chatting with. On balance very likely not: taking generosity from strangers is actually harder when it feels like charity than if we meet as equals and you offer me a drink.

It sounds like you’re saying that people shouldn’t offer help to the homeless. Or were you an unusual case?

HYD

[Lootman]

Thinking back to when I was sleeping rough, ...

I wouldn't have taken your money. I had money ample for all my needs short of a place to live. Even if you'd offered that I'd've needed to avoid a longer-term commitment (like the six months minimum on a normal rental) 'cos I needed the flexibility to move when I found a new job (in the event my next job was the one in Italy - so a long-distance move).

I might have accepted beer, but I don't know. It might've depended how I felt at that moment, and whether you seemed like someone I'd enjoy chatting with. On balance very likely not: taking generosity from strangers is actually harder when it feels like charity than if we meet as equals and you offer me a drink.

It sounds like you’re saying that people shouldn’t offer help to the homeless. Or were you an unusual case?

I will go out on a limb and suggest that not too many Oxbridge graduates have been homeless panhandlers.

But if anyone can prove me wrong it is Uncle.

[Howyoudoin]

Thinking back to when I was sleeping rough, ...

I wouldn't have taken your money. I had money ample for all my needs short of a place to live. Even if you'd offered that I'd've needed to avoid a longer-term commitment (like the six months minimum on a normal rental) 'cos I needed the flexibility to move when I found a new job (in the event my next job was the one in Italy - so a long-distance move).

I might have accepted beer, but I don't know. It might've depended how I felt at that moment, and whether you seemed like someone I'd enjoy chatting with. On balance very likely not: taking generosity from strangers is actually harder when it feels like charity than if we meet as equals and you offer me a drink.

It sounds like you’re saying that people shouldn’t offer help to the homeless. Or were you an unusual case?

I will go out on a limb and suggest that not too many Oxbridge graduates have been homeless panhandlers.

But if anyone can prove me wrong it is Uncle.

Surely the reason that someone has become homeless is moot, whether they started off a millionaire or with nothing.

An odd evening gets odder with the comments on here.

HYD

[Lootman]

It sounds like you’re saying that people shouldn’t offer help to the homeless. Or were you an unusual case?

I will go out on a limb and suggest that not too many Oxbridge graduates have been homeless panhandlers.

But if anyone can prove me wrong it is Uncle.

Surely the reason that someone has become homeless is moot, whether they started off a millionaire or with nothing.

Care to speculate on the percentage of homeless folks who are former millionaires?

[UncleEbenezer]

It sounds like you’re saying that people shouldn’t offer help to the homeless. Or were you an unusual case?

HYD

No, I'm not suggesting any such thing. Just trying to draw on my experience (of a long time ago) to offer a possible insight - which may or may not be relevant to your tale. I'm guessing your homeless chap is not destitute, but you didn't know that!

I may be in a hole and digging harder here, but I wonder if there's an analogy to offering minor help to an elderly or disabled person? Some will accept gratefully, others will decline. The extreme case is the first time sometime offers you their seat on a bus or train, thereby delivering a "good god, do I look that old?" shock.

Oh, and re: your discussion with Lootman, I was homeless because my job and tenancy, both fixed-term, had terminated. The job was a university postdoc research contract, and I didn't want a tenancy to outlast it because I expected to have to move for a next job. Next job took longer than expected to find, 'cos we were in a deep recession at the time.

[Howyoudoin]

I will go out on a limb and suggest that not too many Oxbridge graduates have been homeless panhandlers.

But if anyone can prove me wrong it is Uncle.

Surely the reason that someone has become homeless is moot, whether they started off a millionaire or with nothing.

Care to speculate on the percentage of homeless folks who are former millionaires?

My point was that it doesn’t matter how someone became homeless, you should treat them all the same.

HYD

PS Whilst I’ve never seen a former millionaire living under a bridge, I’ve certainly seen former millionaires availing himself/herself of our foodbank. It’s easy to believe that you will be fine forever until crisis strikes.

[Lootman]

It sounds like you’re saying that people shouldn’t offer help to the homeless. Or were you an unusual case?

No, I'm not suggesting any such thing. Just trying to draw on my experience (of a long time ago) to offer a possible insight - which may or may not be relevant to your tale. I'm guessing your homeless chap is not destitute, but you didn't know that!

The closest parallel to that I can recall is back in the mid-1970s when, fresh out of University, I lived in various squats in London. I already had a "graduate" type job but wanted to live on the edge, as well as save money of course.

We broke into one empty house in Ladbroke Grove and another in Tooting. In each case lived there rent and bill free for a few months until the owners finally got motivated to move us. Funny thing is that squatting wasn't even illegal back then, although Thatcher later changed that.

Awful long time ago now though.

[UncleEbenezer]

We broke into one empty house in Ladbroke Grove and another in Tooting. In each case lived there rent and bill free for a few months until the owners finally got motivated to move us. Funny thing is that squatting wasn't even illegal back then, although Thatcher later changed that.

Awful long time ago now though.

That's probably what I should have done when I got a job in London, but I had an aspirational upbringing that led me to think such things were wrong and shouldn't be necessary.

Renting in London as a new graduate in the 1980s - when the 1977 rent acts had killed off whatever market there might have been - was actually worse than sleeping rough in the early 90s.

p.s. I thought outlawing squatting was much more recent than Thatcher?

[Lootman]

We broke into one empty house in Ladbroke Grove and another in Tooting. In each case lived there rent and bill free for a few months until the owners finally got motivated to move us. Funny thing is that squatting wasn't even illegal back then, although Thatcher later changed that.

Awful long time ago now though.

That's probably what I should have done when I got a job in London, but I had an aspirational upbringing that led me to think such things were wrong and shouldn't be necessary.

Renting in London as a new graduate in the 1980s - when the 1977 rent acts had killed off whatever market there might have been - was actually worse than sleeping rough in the early 90s.

I had been squatting in one place for a few months when I heard someone trying to open my front door with a key. Turned out it was the owner. He could not get in because I had changed the locks.

I opened the door and asked "Who are you?". He replied "Who are you?" I said I was squatting there. Back then, as mentioned, it was only a civil thing and not a criminal thing, so he knew this would be a long slog. I told him that if he left me alone for 3 months I would move out with the other guy living there. He agreed if I allowed his guys to come in and decorate. Deal.

We all kept our word and a few months later I moved out, buying my first place in London partly using the money I had saved from squatting. Win-win!

[stewamax]

When I was working off Oxford St and used to go back to my room in Bloomsbury quite late of an evening, I was struck by the number of rough sleepers who occupied exactly the same doorways for years. When going back into work about 6.45am, the sleepers were up and clearing up their bedding and any rubbish. There was never any overt mess - no pee or poo or trash – and I assume that the business occupiers never interfered because they were getting free door security!

None of the sleepers ever begged from me and I never offered food or drink to them but gave ££ fairly liberally to the Sisters of Mercy (or whatever they were called) who trundled round the area each evening with a soup-kitchen van. Those who used it were never patronised, just helped.

[Howyoudoin]

We broke into one empty house in Ladbroke Grove and another in Tooting. In each case lived there rent and bill free for a few months until the owners finally got motivated to move us. Funny thing is that squatting wasn't even illegal back then, although Thatcher later changed that.

Awful long time ago now though.

That's probably what I should have done when I got a job in London, but I had an aspirational upbringing that led me to think such things were wrong and shouldn't be necessary.

Renting in London as a new graduate in the 1980s - when the 1977 rent acts had killed off whatever market there might have been - was actually worse than sleeping rough in the early 90s.

I had been squatting in one place for a few months when I heard someone trying to open my front door with a key. Turned out it was the owner. He could not get in because I had changed the locks.

I opened the door and asked "Who are you?". He replied "Who are you?" I said I was squatting there. Back then, as mentioned, it was only a civil thing and not a criminal thing, so he knew this would be a long slog. I told him that if he left me alone for 3 months I would move out with the other guy living there. He agreed if I allowed his guys to come in and decorate. Deal.

We all kept our word and a few months later I moved out, buying my first place in London partly using the money I had saved from squatting. Win-win!

I dream of people like you guys, who take pleasure in squatting, without thinking of the consequences for others.

Dream of how much pain I would invoke whilst killing you softly if I was the Landlord involved there.

HYD

[brightncheerful]

I once dated a squatter, she had a decent job with a reputable company and paid her way generally; just that she liked to squat as it suited her politics. Our 'relationship' was short-lived, a new man arrived at the squat so she chopped and changed.

Squatting in residential property became illegal in 2012.

[mark88man]

That's probably what I should have done when I got a job in London, but I had an aspirational upbringing that led me to think such things were wrong and shouldn't be necessary.

Renting in London as a new graduate in the 1980s - when the 1977 rent acts had killed off whatever market there might have been - was actually worse than sleeping rough in the early 90s.

I had been squatting in one place for a few months when I heard someone trying to open my front door with a key. Turned out it was the owner. He could not get in because I had changed the locks.

I opened the door and asked "Who are you?". He replied "Who are you?" I said I was squatting there. Back then, as mentioned, it was only a civil thing and not a criminal thing, so he knew this would be a long slog. I told him that if he left me alone for 3 months I would move out with the other guy living there. He agreed if I allowed his guys to come in and decorate. Deal.

We all kept our word and a few months later I moved out, buying my first place in London partly using the money I had saved from squatting. Win-win!

I dream of people like you guys, who take pleasure in squatting, without thinking of the consequences for others.

Dream of how much pain I would invoke whilst killing you softly if I was the Landlord involved there.

HYD

so what were the negative consequences of squatting over leaving a house unoccupied. just because rentiers aren't getting their rent (which they weren't getting anyway as it was empty) doesn't make it a problem, certainly not one necessitating barely veiled threats of violence

[bungeejumper]

The way I remember it, squatting was only non-illegal if you'd gained access to the property without breaking or forcing anything. That would probably mean that you'd come in through an unsecured window, or that you'd got a key from a former tenant. Otherwise you'd be up for breaking and entering. (I'm not sure whether lock-picking would count as forced entry? I'd imagine so?)

Plenty of squatters would reach amicable agreements with the utility suppliers and would pay their way quite happily. It all seems like another country these days. No wonder Maggie cracked down on it. She'd have had a hard time getting the poll tax out of them.

One other country [i]did[/i] do things differently. I spent some of my student years in Berlin, where a number of my mates were living in one of the (in)famous Berlin communes to the north of Kreuzberg. With the council's active encouragement!

When the Berlin wall had gone up in 1961, the four occupying powers had agreed on a wide 'de-occupied' strip of residential land on the western side of the wall where nobody was allowed to live. Westerners had been pissing off the Russians for some time by digging tunnels and putting up provocative banners and broadcasting anti-Soviet propaganda from those buildings, and part of the east-west co-operation deal was that all that would stop. Well, officially. BUT.......

So my friends lived high up in a former factory building, barely ten metres from the wall, and overlooking the death strip just across the road. Apart from the occasional burst of automatic fire in the night (usually at cats or foxes), and the deafening clatter of Soviet tanks on the cobblestones, a sound we came to know quite well, it was very quiet and nobody ever troubled the squatters. East Berlin might complain loudly about the communes, but the city Senate in the West could always claim that it had no control over them because the squatters had their civil rights.

However, the Senate did give them rent-free accommodation, free water and electricity, a full set of social care entitlements and anything else that it thought might tee off the reds. My friends were pretty red and radical themselves, but they were happy enough to accept the self-interested generosity of the wicked capitalists who were quietly enjoying the annoyance they were deliberately creating on the other side of the barbed wire...

The last I heard, those 19th century factory blocks were being turned into chi-chi apartments for the super-wealthy. I reckon we had more fun.

BJ

[moorfield]

Undercover agent

Dale from Cuckoo ?