BoJo

[mc2fool]

One of the problems I have with Johnson is that I'm not even sure how to characterise him

How about as a classicist who's missed his true calling ...

For those that haven't seen it already, the 2015 Greece vs Rome (which was better?) debate, with Boris speaking for Greece (well, Periclean Athens in reality) and Mary Beard speaking for Rome, refereed by Andrew Marr, is enormously entertaining.

Somewhat highbrow stuff of course, and from the Q&A part I think the audience was full of classics PhDs (and certainly not anyone on a tight budget, IIRC tickets were £35), but it's well worth the 1h36m.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k448JqQyj8, highly recommended!

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Guilty ... I'm guilty.

I quite like Boris Johnson. I think he's a complete breath of fresh air. That's my opinion today though. I reserve the right to change my mind tomorrow. I can't tell you why I like him today. Probably because he's delivered on Brexit. He's done reasonably well on Covid.

But above all I like him today because he's better than the alternatives.

Tomorrow the alternatives may just be that bit better. Then I may just change my mind.

I actually quite liked Tony Blair too.

I suppose I'm confused.

It's tiring me out having to think of who to vote for next. Hairstyle does come into my judgement calls.

AiY

[swill453]

I can't tell you why I like him today. Probably because he's delivered on Brexit.

Er, no he hasnt. Don't you read the news? It's not over, by far.

He's done reasonably well on Covid.

Can't agree with you there either.

Scott.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

I can't tell you why I like him today. Probably because he's delivered on Brexit.

Er, no he hasnt. Don't you read the news? It's not over, by far.

He's done reasonably well on Covid.

Can't agree with you there either.

Scott.

Well at least you didn't think his hairstyle was rubbish. You should vote for him.

AiY

[swill453]

Well at least you didn't think his hairstyle was rubbish. You should vote for him.

Seems you and Johnson think hairstyle is important. I don't.

Scott.

[Mike4]

He's done reasonably well on Covid.

Umm..... 140,000 people from the UK would strongly disagree with you on that, if they were able to.

[servodude]

He's done reasonably well on Covid.

Umm..... 140,000 people from the UK would strongly disagree with you on that, if they were able to.

That's harsh!
What was he meant to do?
- turn up to Cobra meetings?
- stop shaking hands?

Come on...
-sd

[Lootman]

What I find objectionable about Johnson is that it's obvious that everything he says and does is considered so that it comes out best for him and his popularity and election/re-election prospects. Hang any other consequences.

The thing about Boris that I find amazing, is that he's so much of a liar - and everyone knows it - that it actually works in his favour.

There's no shock when he's caught lying; it wouldn't be news if an investigative journalist caught him out.

Is there any conceivable scandal that could come Boris' way that people would both (1) believe, and (2) could actually damage Boris' reputation, where people wouldn't be swayed by the blabbering and buffoonery and give him the benefit of the doubt?

The greatest Mafia leader of the last 50 years was probably John Gotti, otherwise knows as "The Dapper Don" or "The Teflon Don". Whilst "Dapper" is probably not viably attributable to BJ, "Teflon" might be - nothing sticks to him. One could argue that is a very useful skill to have in a leader.

As for lying, isn't the issue that all politicians lie? BJ is just more honest about lying (if that makes any sense) because he doesn't really try to hide it. Again, some might admire that.

I suspect for many people BJ's main attribute is that he is not Corbyn. So if he achieves nothing it will still be a better outcome than the alternative.

If I had to rate PM's in my consciously adult lifetime from best to worst then BJ would be in the bottom half but not bottom. Just for fun I would rank thus:

Thatcher
Blair
Cameron
Major
Brown
BJ
May
Callaghan

I think that is all of them.

[monabri]

What I find objectionable about Johnson is that it's obvious that everything he says and does is considered so that it comes out best for him and his popularity and election/re-election prospects. Hang any other consequences.

The thing about Boris that I find amazing, is that he's so much of a liar - and everyone knows it - that it actually works in his favour.

There's no shock when he's caught lying; it wouldn't be news if an investigative journalist caught him out.

Is there any conceivable scandal that could come Boris' way that people would both (1) believe, and (2) could actually damage Boris' reputation, where people wouldn't be swayed by the blabbering and buffoonery and give him the benefit of the doubt?

The greatest Mafia leader of the last 50 years was probably John Gotti, otherwise knows as "The Dapper Don" or "The Teflon Don". Whilst "Dapper" is probably not viably attributable to BJ, "Teflon" might be - nothing sticks to him. One could argue that is a very useful skill to have in a leader.

As for lying, isn't the issue that all politicians lie? BJ is just more honest about lying (if that makes any sense) because he doesn't really try to hide it. Again, some might admire that.

I suspect for many people BJ's main attribute is that he is not Corbyn. So if he achieves nothing it will still be a better outcome than the alternative.

If I had to rate PM's in my consciously adult lifetime from best to worst then BJ would be in the bottom half but not bottom. Just for fun I would rank thus:

Thatcher
Blair
Cameron
Major
Brown
BJ
May
Callaghan

I think that is all of them.

"Not Corbyn".....therein lies the key to his success. The lying issue is a big no no for me. I'd put him in the category of "untrustworthy" and being only in it for himself.

[swill453]

As for lying, isn't the issue that all politicians lie? BJ is just more honest about lying (if that makes any sense) because he doesn't really try to hide it.

Not sure I agree with that. You might recognise that he's lying, and are apparently sanguine about it. But I reckon he (and his colleagues) are successfully duping a large proportion of the electorate.

Scott.

[Lootman]

As for lying, isn't the issue that all politicians lie? BJ is just more honest about lying (if that makes any sense) because he doesn't really try to hide it.

Not sure I agree with that. You might recognise that he's lying, and are apparently sanguine about it. But I reckon he (and his colleagues) are successfully duping a large proportion of the electorate.

Lying is a key part of public life. The art of diplomacy has much to do with "being economical with the truth". Corporate and business life often involves being nice to people you dislike and other forms of dishonesty. Do you really think that bank clerk who wishes you a nice day gives a rat's rectum what kind of day you have? And when your wife asks you if her new dress makes her backside look big, do you reply: "Yes, you should lose a few pounds or else take that dress back". No, you do not.

So the question here is how the public regards the dark arts of guile and subterfuge in the public arena. And I suspect the answer is "Not as much as you might think".

Ironically I give Corbyn relatively high marks for honesty. He mostly said what he believed and meant, at least before becoming leader caused him to have to watch his mouth. But for all that "integrity" I would still much rather have BJ and so, evidently, would the public at large. Lies get overlooked or forgiven if you are content with the way the country is going. Lies are a means to an end rather than an intrinsic quality or flaw that defines success, failure or popularity.

[Nimrod103]

All politicians lie. It is what they do. None are free of guilt. From Harold Wilson (the Pound in your pocket will still be worth the same) to Callahan (What crisis?), Heath (Joining the Common Market will not lead to a loss of sovereignty), Mrs Thatcher (Where there is discord, let us sow peace [or something like that]).

It depends on the seriousness of the consequences. Really there can be nothing worse than the claim that Iraq represented a huge threat to the UK, and as a result we went into a war that resulted in thousands of deaths, and caused untold misery.

Followed closely by John Major whose forcing through of Maastricht (on the basis it was of little consequence) laid the foundations for 25 years of conflict over the EU, resolved only by our departure.

Compared to all that Johnson's claims over a few sausages, or the viability of a tunnel to Northern Ireland pale into insignificance.

[JamesMuenchen]

If I had to rate PM's in my consciously adult lifetime from best to worst then BJ would be in the bottom half but not bottom. Just for fun I would rank thus:

Thatcher
Blair
Cameron
Major
Brown
BJ
May
Callaghan

Depends on how you approach the question.

Brown was at worst a useless lump, as PM, but at least he didn't really do any harm.

Compare his tenure to the damage done by Blair (Devolution, Iraq, EU expansion and migration) and Cameron (referendums). Those two have a huge responsibility for "where we are now".

[redsturgeon]

What I find objectionable about Johnson is that it's obvious that everything he says and does is considered so that it comes out best for him and his popularity and election/re-election prospects. Hang any other consequences.

A bloke on Radio 4 earlier, asked if Johnson should speak out against the booing of the England team "taking the knee" basically said "who cares, he'll do whatever shows him in the best light", and that resonated loud and clear with me.

Scott.

Isn't that the fundamental flaw with democracy, that politicians need to appear popular in order to hold office, I suspect it's why you rarely hear where the money's coming from or the word 'responsibility'!

Funny thing is that when it is more money for defence or tax cuts, it's OK but more money for education or the NHS and it's "where's the money coming from?"

John

[Mike4]

Brown was at worst a useless lump, as PM, but at least he didn't really do any harm.

Remind me of the price at which he sold our gold reserves.

Not in the same league of damage as Brexit though, I agree.

[Lootman]

If I had to rate PM's in my consciously adult lifetime from best to worst then BJ would be in the bottom half but not bottom. Just for fun I would rank thus:

Thatcher
Blair
Cameron
Major
Brown
BJ
May
Callaghan

Depends on how you approach the question.

Brown was at worst a useless lump, as PM, but at least he didn't really do any harm.

Compare his tenure to the damage done by Blair (Devolution, Iraq, EU expansion and migration) and Cameron (referendums). Those two have a huge responsibility for "where we are now".

Everyone's rankings would be different, certainly. I tried to strip out ideological issues and focus more on success as a leader. On that basis you have to put Thatcher and Blair top as they both won 3 elections, and nobody else comes close. On the other hand Callaghan was one of two on that list who never won an election AND he had his famous and fatal "What Crisis?" moment, so he has to be dead last.

I was probably being charitable with Brown as he also never won an election and failed to see the global financial crisis coming. On the other hand his response to that once he did see it was decent. And although I disliked his stealth taxes I did approve of him keeping us out of the Euro and simplifying CGT.

Some of the things you cited didn't bother me, like Blair's invasion of Iraq. Likewise Cameron's referenda which, at least in principle, I approved of and I would like to see more of.

[JamesMuenchen]

Brown was at worst a useless lump, as PM, but at least he didn't really do any harm.

Remind me of the price at which he sold our gold reserves.

Not in the same league of damage as Brexit though, I agree.

That was as Chancellor, not PM.

[Lootman]

If I had to rate PM's in my consciously adult lifetime from best to worst then BJ would be in the bottom half but not bottom. Just for fun I would rank thus:

Thatcher
Blair
Cameron
Major
Brown
BJ
May
Callaghan

It would be fun to do the same list for American presidents.

Easier in some ways as I was not so personally affected by them. My shot:

Reagan
Clinton
Obama
Bush Senior
Bush Junior
Trump
Carter
Nixon

I suppose Ford should be in there but I don't remember much about him and he was never elected.

[Dod101]

He's done reasonably well on Covid.

Umm..... 140,000 people from the UK would strongly disagree with you on that, if they were able to.

That is of course nonsense.

Dod

[88V8]

Well at least you didn't think his hairstyle was rubbish. You should vote for him.

Seems you and Johnson think hairstyle is important. I don't.

It shouldn't be. But in the televisual age, I'm afraid it is.

Have we ever had a PM with a syrup?

V8