Electric aircraft

[Leothebear]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57747128

The is no truer saying than "Necessity is the mother of invention".

[88V8]

Nothing comes close to the energy density of petrol.
Electric flight will be a niche for many years to come.
But the more work is done on batteries to make them denser and lighter, the better.
It will spin off into all transport.
And the best way to improve the breed, is racing. Records are a variety of racing.
So is Formula E.... borrring.... but valuable.
So I'm pleased to see record attempts. The Govt should put up prizes.
I shall write to BoJo, today.

V8

[Mike4]

Nothing comes close to the energy density of petrol.

Diesel does!

Electric flight will be a niche for many years to come.
But the more work is done on batteries to make them denser and lighter, the better.
It will spin off into all transport.

Yes, the more reachable goal currently is electric heavy goods vehicles. These will become viable long before electric passenger aircraft as the need for energy density is lower, although still a lot higher than we have now.

[eepee]

Didn't someone in F1 say the other day that the answer is hydrogen?

On something like a small aircraft I would think that the hydrogen tanks probably require less 'sturdiness' than for land vehicles and probably show a weight advantage over batteries?

Presumably the (liquified) hydrogen is weight comparable to aviatioon fuel?

Regards,
ep

[gryffron]

Didn't someone in F1 say the other day that the answer is hydrogen?

Yeah. What could possibly go wrong?


WikiCommons image. By Sam Shere (1905–1982)

[Midsmartin]

Those airship photos apparently support a myth:

What you see burning is mainly aviation fuel for the engines, and the covering of the craft which was made using something rather like rocket fuel. The hydrogen is burning relatively harmlessly *above* everything else.

Hydrogen is very buoyant - if there's a leak it wooshes upwards above the craft in a way that petrol/does not, and is much less likely to explode too.

Here's a link:
https://rmi.org/wp-content/uploads/2017 ... nMyths.pdf"

"Contrary to a popular misunderstanding, these safety attributes actually helped save 62 lives inthe 1937 Hindenburg disaster. An investigation by NASA scientist Dr. Addison Bain found38 that the disaster would have been essentially unchanged even if the dirigible were lifted not by hydrogen but by nonflammable helium, and that probably nobody aboard was killed by a hydrogen fire. (There was no explosion.) The 35% who died were killed by jumping out, or by the burning diesel oil, canopy, and debris (the cloth canopy was coated with what nowadays would be called rocket fuel). The other 65% survived, riding the flaming dirigible to earth as the clear hydrogen flames swirled harmlessly above them. T"

[bionichamster]

Didn't someone in F1 say the other day that the answer is hydrogen?

On something like a small aircraft I would think that the hydrogen tanks probably require less 'sturdiness' than for land vehicles and probably show a weight advantage over batteries?

Presumably the (liquified) hydrogen is weight comparable to aviatioon fuel?

Regards,
ep

Stumbled across this.

Was listening to an F1 podcast featuring Paddy Lowe (ex F1 engineer) who has recently set up a company to research and develop synthetic fuel.

HIs argument was that for large aircraft the energy density in batteries cannot match what can be stored in a chemical fuel; and he didn't mean it can't 'yet' match it he seemed to indicate that the laws of physics just simply means that it can't be done, you can't fly a 100 ton aircraft with electric power from batteries.....

Hence he thinks synthetic fuel is the solution.

I guess you could build large aircraft lighter but there'll be a limit to that.

Batteries combined with solar and maybe fuel cell might power small and or super light aircraft, but possibly never lift 300 folk on their way to the Algarve for a holiday it seems.

BH

[JohnB]

There are clear pathways to 1000 mile range battery aircraft. There are not for intercontinental ones

[BobbyD]

Didn't someone in F1 say the other day that the answer is hydrogen?

On something like a small aircraft I would think that the hydrogen tanks probably require less 'sturdiness' than for land vehicles and probably show a weight advantage over batteries?

Presumably the (liquified) hydrogen is weight comparable to aviatioon fuel?

Regards,
ep

Stumbled across this.

Was listening to an F1 podcast featuring Paddy Lowe (ex F1 engineer) who has recently set up a company to research and develop synthetic fuel.

HIs argument was that for large aircraft the energy density in batteries cannot match what can be stored in a chemical fuel; and he didn't mean it can't 'yet' match it he seemed to indicate that the laws of physics just simply means that it can't be done, you can't fly a 100 ton aircraft with electric power from batteries.....

Hence he thinks synthetic fuel is the solution.

I guess you could build large aircraft lighter but there'll be a limit to that.

Batteries combined with solar and maybe fuel cell might power small and or super light aircraft, but possibly never lift 300 folk on their way to the Algarve for a holiday it seems.

BH

So build smaller planes...

Coincidently: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-08-03/

It's very early days to be deciding what will and won't be feasible in 10, 20, 50 years time, or how the use of planes may change by custom or by regulation eg.

French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

PARIS, April 11 (Reuters) - French lawmakers voted late on Saturday to abolish domestic flights on routes than can be covered by train in under two-and-a-half hours, as the government seeks to lower carbon emissions even as the air travel industry reels from the global pandemic.

- https://www.reuters.com/business/enviro ... 021-04-11/

[Mike4]

There are clear pathways to 1000 mile range battery aircraft. There are not for intercontinental ones

With what cargo/passenger carrying capacity?

It's one thing to fly a battery aircraft 1000 miles, quite another to fly the same aircraft 1000 miles carrying a meaningful payload weight.

[88V8]

PARIS, April 11 (Reuters) - French lawmakers voted late on Saturday to abolish domestic flights on routes than can be covered by train in under two-and-a-half hours, as the government seeks to lower carbon emissions .....

Good.
We should do the same.

And although I'm not in favour of banning things - except things I don't approve of - we should ban helicopters for all but essential use. And 'essential' does not include election campaigning for instance. Or ferrying Prince Charles to address environmental conferences.

As regards fuel cells, there's this conversion of the Dash-8 Universal Hydrogen plans to install up to three hydrogen fuel cell modules at the tail end of the DHC8-Q300 and placed in a compartment that will replace the last two rows of seats. Although this will reduce the capacity from 50 to 40 passengers, however, according to Universal Hydrogen, it will not negatively affect the economy of air transportation.
The two turbofan engines of the passenger aircraft are planned to be replaced with two electric motors supplied by MagniX. The power of one electric motor will be 1.6 megawatts; the power of the second is not specified. The second motor will be used as a generator while parked at the airfield. In-flight, both motors will drive the propellers. https://www.inceptivemind.com/magnix-un ... gen/15412/
Yes, it reduces passenger capacity by 20%.

Early days, but I think it will be way past my lifetime before anyone who cares about our planet can go jetting off to the carribbean.

V8

[UncleEbenezer]

PARIS, April 11 (Reuters) - French lawmakers voted late on Saturday to abolish domestic flights on routes than can be covered by train in under two-and-a-half hours, as the government seeks to lower carbon emissions .....

Good.
We should do the same.
V8

Indeed. Fix the railways instead! Regionally here, instead of supporting Newquay airport, we could use a proper line that doesn't end at Exeter and turn a fast journey from London (or Brisl/Brum/etc) into another whole hour for the 40 miles to Plymouth, let alone Cornwall!

A few years back, comedian Mark Thomas had a radio programme called his "Manifesto", where he worked out unlikely policies with his audience. One of those: anyone taking a domestic flight within the UK should be forced to walk back for the return journey. The audience loved it, and there was a heckle about whether it should include flights to Belfast.

[Leothebear]

Railways don't work. Most run nearly empty out of the peak commuting times. For most people rail is the expensive and inconvenient option. I'd love to go to the west country by rail, God knows I HATE the drive there, but it'd take ages. Taxi to station, train to London, tube or taxi to Waterloo. Train west then a taxi at the other end. It would also be costly, much more than a family trip to Spain. A quick estimate tells me that for a family of 3, the return journey is about £500. Services are also unreliable.

When all vehicles can be powered effectively and cleanly, do away with railways and where desirable, build roads in their place.

[bionichamster]

PARIS, April 11 (Reuters) - French lawmakers voted late on Saturday to abolish domestic flights on routes than can be covered by train in under two-and-a-half hours, as the government seeks to lower carbon emissions .....

Good.
We should do the same.

And although I'm not in favour of banning things - except things I don't approve of - we should ban helicopters for all but essential use. And 'essential' does not include election campaigning for instance. Or ferrying Prince Charles to address environmental conferences.

As regards fuel cells, there's this conversion of the Dash-8 Universal Hydrogen plans to install up to three hydrogen fuel cell modules at the tail end of the DHC8-Q300 and placed in a compartment that will replace the last two rows of seats. Although this will reduce the capacity from 50 to 40 passengers, however, according to Universal Hydrogen, it will not negatively affect the economy of air transportation.
The two turbofan engines of the passenger aircraft are planned to be replaced with two electric motors supplied by MagniX. The power of one electric motor will be 1.6 megawatts; the power of the second is not specified. The second motor will be used as a generator while parked at the airfield. In-flight, both motors will drive the propellers. https://www.inceptivemind.com/magnix-un ... gen/15412/
Yes, it reduces passenger capacity by 20%.

Early days, but I think it will be way past my lifetime before anyone who cares about our planet can go jetting off to the carribbean.

V8

Helicopters are very useful for avoiding security headaches for travelling VIPs; the headache often being for thousands of ordinary citizens who are held up and inconvenienced by closed roads etc.

BH

[scotia]

On the BBC Site today

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-58177865

Scotland's first electric-powered aircraft begins Orkney test flights

[88V8]

Scotland's first electric-powered aircraft begins Orkney test flights

Partially powered, an arrangement uniquely facilitated by its pushmepullyou configuration.

And it's a retrofit of an existing aircraft.
Retrofit is an excellent route into electrics. It sidesteps the huge costs and delays of certifying a new airframe which will scupper many if not most new electric designs.
Jolly good.

V8

[GoSeigen]

On the BBC Site today

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-58177865

Scotland's first electric-powered aircraft begins Orkney test flights

"Electric aircraft", just the latest incarnation of snake oil.

It's not electric but a mixed-power aircraft and certainly far more carbon emitting than it's unaltered aviation-fueled predecessor.

GS

[airbus330]

Reading some industry analysis recently that suggested that a realistic alternative to the current jet engine for commercial aircraft won't be available until around 2100. Restrictions on personal travel by law or taxation seems much more likely to me. I suspect that I worked through peak aviation in the last decade and the trajectory will be for less travel.

[Mike4]

Reading some industry analysis recently that suggested that a realistic alternative to the current jet engine for commercial aircraft won't be available until around 2100. Restrictions on personal travel by law or taxation seems much more likely to me. I suspect that I worked through peak aviation in the last decade and the trajectory will be for less travel.

Given the fuss and commotion made by people about not being able to fly temporarily due to Covid, convincing people not to fly for the far longer term goal of saving the human race is going to be a tough nut to crack.

[redsturgeon]

DiY electric planes

Using a leaf blower...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMvppuS_ehg&t=415s
or a cordless drill...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EiZ0NuDpoQ


John