Returning to restaurants

[terminal7]

After a lengthy period through various lockdowns, the OH and I have started to return to restaurants. Over the last 3 months we have visited maybe a dozen or so – in London, Paris, Burgundy and southern France. The experiences have varied between the sublime and a walkout after being insulted by madame le patron in Beaune. I occasionally send reviews to the usual suspects – largely when we have had a memorable meal or had an appalling experience. I tend to refrain when the restaurant is average – particularly when prices are low.

We all know the awful times that restaurants have gone through over the last 18 months. As a result, I have only posted good reviews during this period. I decided against giving reviews about ‘bad’ meals for the moment. However last night in London, we had a particularly poor experience. Is it time for me to start calling out high prices, poor quality, bad service wherever appropriate?

T7

[staffordian]

I'd say that it depends.

There is never a good reason for rudeness or several other failings. I'd have been inclined to leave reviews highlighting this at any time. But if a problem might be due to staff shortages then I would consider cutting them some slack given the well documented issues the hospitality industry are experiencing getting and keeping workers.

[Midsmartin]

Or maybe direct your complaint directly to the restaurant, politely, in private.

I imagine that a well run restaurant would be very appreciative of constructive private criticism, as it helps them improve. More so than a public bad review. And they might well offer your a freebie of some sort!

[vrdiver]

Or maybe direct your complaint directly to the restaurant, politely, in private.

I imagine that a well run restaurant would be very appreciative of constructive private criticism, as it helps them improve. More so than a public bad review.

Agreed. To post a bad review "out of the blue", without first calling the restaurant manager's attention to your issue does seem both illogical and unfair. It doesn't resolve the problem for you, and may cause damage to a business out of proportion to the problem.

High prices should never be a problem, assuming you had a chance to look at them before entering the restaurant. I always find those sorts of complaints slightly strange. High prices do set a level of expectation though, so they can be criticized for being misaligned with the actual experience!

Nb. I am not saying you didn't discuss it with the manager (perhaps they themselves were the problem!), but your post doesn't mention it either way.

VRD

[BobbyD]

I imagine that a well run restaurant would be very appreciative of constructive private criticism, as it helps them improve. More so than a public bad review. And they might well offer your a freebie of some sort!

A well run restaurant would have given plenty of opportunity to raise any concerns you are having during service. Assuming the objection is reasonable if you leave the restaurant dissatisfied they have failed twice.

[Midsmartin]

Yes, but any decent English person is too polite to complain in person. Only after allowing it to fester for a few days are we cross enough to fire off a mildly worded email.

[dealtn]

A well run restaurant would have given plenty of opportunity to raise any concerns you are having during service. Assuming the objection is reasonable if you leave the restaurant dissatisfied they have failed twice.

Only if you took the opportunity to raise it.

[BobbyD]

A well run restaurant would have given plenty of opportunity to raise any concerns you are having during service. Assuming the objection is reasonable if you leave the restaurant dissatisfied they have failed twice.

Only if you took the opportunity to raise it.

True, and if it was a trifling complaint which niggled but seemed petty to raise or a customer who shied away from conflict than that may be the case, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

[88V8]

We all know the awful times that restaurants have gone through over the last 18 months. As a result, I have only posted good reviews during this period. I decided against giving reviews about ‘bad’ meals for the moment. However last night in London, we had a particularly poor experience. Is it time for me to start calling out high prices, poor quality, bad service wherever appropriate?

We had a disappointing meal in a local restaurant that has many rave reviews on Tripadvisor.
Staff problems... new chef... ??? dunno, but like you I decided to cut them some slack and did not review it.

I am a bit of a coward when it comes to complaining in-person. During the meal, what is one asking them to do? Take it away and try again? And perhaps spit in it for good measure... one hears things....
After the meal, I might... hot food on cold plates is one of my pet peeves which I have complained about in the past and I would certainly mention that in a review as there is really no excuse.

One thing I have done is to write the review and if it's negative email it to the restaurant for comment. I did that with a gastropub recommended by Giles C where the food was hideously oversalted... got no reply so I posted it.

But at the mo unless it's something really egregious I think I'm inclined to cut them all some slack.

V8

[Lootman]

I am a bit of a coward when it comes to complaining in-person. During the meal, what is one asking them to do? Take it away and try again?

Not that I am saying it is easy to do, but that is the correct response. The reason being that if something is wrong then it is better to give the restaurant staff an opportunity to fix it.

If instead you just grin and bear it, then the business won't know it did something wrong and therefore cannot improve.

Also the waiter relies on tips and would rather fix the problem and get a good tip, than have you say nothing and then give a low tip.

American diners send stuff back all the time, for good reasons and bad, and nobody thinks much about it. We Brits would often rather suffer in silence and then grumble about it afterwards.

[88V8]

I am a bit of a coward when it comes to complaining in-person. During the meal, what is one asking them to do? Take it away and try again?

American diners send stuff back all the time, for good reasons and bad, and nobody thinks much about it. We Brits would often rather suffer in silence and then grumble about it afterwards.

Very true.
From my limited experience of the US, there is more of a service ethic in the eateries. Perhaps something to do with the typical 15% tip and the fact that the waitstaff depend to a greater extent on the tips.
Here, they often act as if they're doing you a favour.

V8

[Midsmartin]

If the food is at all edible, I'd hate to think of the wasted resources if it was just thrown in the bin, so I wouldn't send it back unless I literally couldn't eat it. I might take a discount instead.

[vrdiver]

If the food is at all edible, I'd hate to think of the wasted resources

Chris Pratt (star of Passengers, along with Jennifer Lawrence) tells a good story of when he was waiting tables, very broke and always hungry, he'd eat any food sent back. One night a steak was returned, which he ate before returning to the table, only to be asked for the steak back for the lady's dog...

By complaining about poor standards, you might be helping out the struggling staff!

VRD

[redsturgeon]

I am a bit of a coward when it comes to complaining in-person. During the meal, what is one asking them to do? Take it away and try again?

American diners send stuff back all the time, for good reasons and bad, and nobody thinks much about it. We Brits would often rather suffer in silence and then grumble about it afterwards.

Very true.
From my limited experience of the US, there is more of a service ethic in the eateries. Perhaps something to do with the typical 15% tip and the fact that the waitstaff depend to a greater extent on the tips.
Here, they often act as if they're doing you a favour.

V8

I think you will find in many restaurants in the UK these days there is a 12.5% service charge (optional) and my daughter's establishment charges 15%. Not too shabby when one customer last week came three nights in a row and spend over £25,000 each night!

John

[Lootman]

American diners send stuff back all the time, for good reasons and bad, and nobody thinks much about it. We Brits would often rather suffer in silence and then grumble about it afterwards.

Very true.
From my limited experience of the US, there is more of a service ethic in the eateries. Perhaps something to do with the typical 15% tip and the fact that the waitstaff depend to a greater extent on the tips.
Here, they often act as if they're doing you a favour.

I think you will find in many restaurants in the UK these days there is a 12.5% service charge (optional) and my daughter's establishment charges 15%. Not too shabby when one customer last week came three nights in a row and spend over £25,000 each night!

You may know, since I have mentioned it before, that one of my children also waits tables at a high-end restaurant. He often suggests to diners that they forego the service charge and instead leave a traditional cash tip. At least where he works the service charge is shared out, and even management get a piece of it. Whereas a cash tip goes straight into his pocket.

It is the restaurant policy that wait staff do not suggest that to diners, for an obvious reason (management write the policies). But regular diners know that is the case anyway. I always do that and you can often see the look of delight on the face of a waiter when you decline the service charge. And that pays dividends if you are a regular.

As for a £25,000 dinner tab, that is impressive. I take it a lot of that was very expensive booze? In that case I don't think a percentage tip or service charge makes much sense. Surely a £1,000 cash tip would do the job? After all the work and skill involved in opening a £1,000 bottle is the same as in opening a £30 bottle?

[AWOL]

I think it's fair enough to leave a poor review otherwise you are doing a disservice to subsequent diners who will be subject to selection bias if people are too embarrassed to contradict the poor reviews.

Having said that I have a picture from two years (and two days) ago on as wallpaper on my PC from a restaurant where we had a fantastic meal and a great time. A real cherished memory! I went back a few months ago and it wasn't quite as good. We have had lock downs and re-openings so I gave them the benefit of the doubt and returned last month. The prices are the same but the portions are tiny and the quality was awful. I wont be back. I didn't leave a review in any of the cases and now just want to forget the experience. Having said that it's difficult as I can see a picture of how lovely the food was and how happy we were when times were good. My guess, is that all the social distancing, increased cancellations, staffing problems, have lead them to cut cost to try to make a profit. This was a mistake. They should have increased prices. I'd pay more for quality but in this case it was mid-priced misery that they served!

On the tipping discussion, I am a 10% and round up kind of guy and the rounding is driven by experience. I won't tip if a meal or service is so bad that it makes me miserable (the exception being when someone is clearly trying but failing as the odds are against them).

On my first trip to the USA in the mid-90s I had a reasonable meal in a midrange restaurant and was adapting to cultural differences (for example I had never before seen a waitress take my plate away while my partner was still eating and at that time nobody did that in the UK) when I paid for the meal (leaving 12.5% as I had a feeling that I had heard that people tipped a bit more in the US) and got ready to leave.

I was soon halted by the waitress charging across the room and angrily confronting me.

"What was wrong with the meal?"
"Nothing"
"Why did you give such a pathetic tip?"
"That's a normal tip for me"
"You're an axxxxxx!"

Well I certainly wasn't going to tip more now after that angry outburst and had no desire to inflame the situation by asking for my change! So it's a sample size of one, and not something that has happened to me since, but it left me with the impression that US service wasn't sincerely better, it was just an insincere attempt to earn a better tip.

I have been told that the problem in the US is that waiting staff wages are lower, as they are on minimum wage and the minimum wage is around and consequently people even tip when service is appalling however that suggests to me that their is a problem for all low wage staff and increasing the minimum wage would be a better way to address this rather than making people dependent on the kindness of strangers. A quick google suggests that the UK minimum wage is around 50% higher. Perhaps, like here, many hospitality staff get a higher than minimum wage salary so this is an invalid comparison but it still raises serious concerns about how the minimum wage can be set so low.

[Lootman]

I have been told that the problem in the US is that waiting staff wages are lower, as they are on minimum wage and the minimum wage is around and consequently people even tip when service is appalling however that suggests to me that their is a problem for all low wage staff and increasing the minimum wage would be a better way to address this rather than making people dependent on the kindness of strangers. A quick google suggests that the UK minimum wage is around 50% higher. Perhaps, like here, many hospitality staff get a higher than minimum wage salary so this is an invalid comparison but it still raises serious concerns about how the minimum wage can be set so low.

In most of the US, wait staff are exempted from the minimum wage laws, on the presumed basis that they make substantial amounts in tips. There are some localities that have passed laws that mandate the minimum wage be paid even for those who get tips, but that is just in a few locations.

So for many wait staff tips comprise the majority of their income, which might explain why leaving a low tip is frowned upon.

And there is one other factor. The US IRS taxes wait staff on presumed tips. That number is derived by taking a percentage of the average revenue at that establishment. So that waiter was probably going to have to pay tax as if you had tipped 15% or 20%, which might also help to explain her ire.

[AWOL]

I have been told that the problem in the US is that waiting staff wages are lower, as they are on minimum wage and the minimum wage is around and consequently people even tip when service is appalling however that suggests to me that their is a problem for all low wage staff and increasing the minimum wage would be a better way to address this rather than making people dependent on the kindness of strangers. A quick google suggests that the UK minimum wage is around 50% higher. Perhaps, like here, many hospitality staff get a higher than minimum wage salary so this is an invalid comparison but it still raises serious concerns about how the minimum wage can be set so low.

In most of the US, wait staff are exempted from the minimum wage laws, on the presumed basis that they make substantial amounts in tips. There are some localities that have passed laws that mandate the minimum wage be paid even for those who get tips, but that is just in a few locations.

So for many wait staff tips comprise the majority of their income, which might explain why leaving a low tip is frowned upon.

And there is one other factor. The US IRS taxes wait staff on presumed tips. That number is derived by taking a percentage of the average revenue at that establishment. So that waiter was probably going to have to pay tax as if you had tipped 15% or 20%, which might also help to explain her ire.

For all that I don't want to reward her behaviour on subsequent US meals and visits I have always tipped in the 15-20% range. It was certainly a rude awakening but I guess in a way she won as it changed my behaviour.

Thanks for the explanation. I find it difficult to get my head around some of these cultural differences but I guess there very existence makes one blind to them when at home as they are "norms". It looks like wages are the problem but I guess it's unlikely that it seams normal to those that live there and is therefore unlikely to change dramatically.

[didds]

... He often suggests to diners that they forego the service charge and instead leave a traditional cash tip.... Whereas a cash tip goes straight into his pocket ... you can often see the look of delight on the face of a waiter when you decline the service charge.

does he share that cash tip with the pot wash and cooks?

didds

[Lootman]

... He often suggests to diners that they forego the service charge and instead leave a traditional cash tip.... Whereas a cash tip goes straight into his pocket ... you can often see the look of delight on the face of a waiter when you decline the service charge.

Does he share that cash tip with the pot wash and cooks?

Yes, he does "tip them out", which is discretionary but good practice to ensure a collegiate work environment.

Interestingly the opposite also happens. With the regular service charge the back-of-house folks share in the money, and they sometimes "give back" some of that to my son. Their reasoning is that he is the biggest tip earner at the restaurant and they are showing their appreciation for that.