Cars - a genuine appeal

[AWOL]

It is simply a matter of choice. If people want SUVs then they should have them. If you don't like them then don't buy one.

Well, I've got the choice to , for example, buy up all the fresh food in my local Sainsbury's and leave it to rot in my garden
My money my choice?

If people choose to buy huge unnecessary metal beasts to take the kids to school and do the Waitrose shop there is a knock on effect on the rest of the people on the planet. They may have the money to make that choice, but ultimately it's the wrong choice for everyone even if it's not illegal...

You are entitled to the view that people should not want these vehicles. I am not sure you are entitled to the view that people should be prevented from buying such vehicles. The difference is freedom.

I will never own a SUV but would not want to live in a nation or world where they were banned.

A bit of reductio ad absurdum should help here. Would you live in a nation where people are banned from buying/owning/using nuclear, biological or chemical weapons?

The law prevents people from having the freedom to harm the well being of others. Hence why farmers have limits on which chemicals they can spray on your future dinner. We quite calmly accept limits on freedom for the common good every day and are safer for it. These include limits on what can be sold as a safe motor vehicle or once sold, in many countries, what is safe to drive. In choosing not to choose, we currently have a situation where cars with poor aerondynamics are causing real harm and lung disease for millions it strikes me as reasonable for our politicians to do something to protect us and unreasonable that they do not.

Of course it would be best if people could just make less harmful choices but often they don't. That is the tragedy. As a former biologist I still read the journals and the picture is really not pretty and the trajectory is terrifying. O guess we must be lemmings.

[Dod101]

Well, I've got the choice to , for example, buy up all the fresh food in my local Sainsbury's and leave it to rot in my garden
My money my choice?

If people choose to buy huge unnecessary metal beasts to take the kids to school and do the Waitrose shop there is a knock on effect on the rest of the people on the planet. They may have the money to make that choice, but ultimately it's the wrong choice for everyone even if it's not illegal...

You are entitled to the view that people should not want these vehicles. I am not sure you are entitled to the view that people should be prevented from buying such vehicles. The difference is freedom.

I will never own a SUV but would not want to live in a nation or world where they were banned.

A bit of reductio ad absurdum should help here. Would you live in a nation where people are banned from buying/owning/using nuclear, biological or chemical weapons?

The law prevents people from having the freedom to harm the well being of others. Hence why farmers have limits on which chemicals they can spray on your future dinner. We quite calmly accept limits on freedom for the common good every day and are safer for it. These include limits on what can be sold as a safe motor vehicle or once sold, in many countries, what is safe to drive. In choosing not to choose, we currently have a situation where cars with poor aerondynamics are causing real harm and lung disease for millions it strikes me as reasonable for our politicians to do something to protect us and unreasonable that they do not.

And who pray is to judge if a given vehicle has 'poor aerodynamics'? If you want to stop pollution just ban on all vehicles whilst you are at it and let us all live like the Amish people, off grid as well of course.

Dod

[DrFfybes]

And who pray is to judge if a given vehicle has 'poor aerodynamics'? If you want to stop pollution just ban on all vehicles whilst you are at it and let us all live like the Amish people, off grid as well of course.

Dod

George Cayley?

It is a pretty trivial task to measure the drag coefficient of a vehicle. There are rules for all sorts of things on vehicles, making a maximum cd figure is perfectly feasible.

Whilst I personally don't like SUVs, my choice in vehicles is hardly at the socially beneficial end of the scale either, and whilst these things are allowed then people will buy them. Look at the plethora of current family hatchbacks and small saloons with more power than a Ferrari F40, executive saloons and SUVs with more power than a 2001 F1 car.

One thought in the industry was that physics will take over, SUVs have less range than something more aerodynamic and once batteries become the main power source it will be self selecting. However technology moves on, and if it costs twice a much and uses twice as much Lithium to power it there will still be a market.

Cars are (as seen here) a very emotive topic, a massive economic market, and a real vote winner/loser. Politicians are never too keen on banning something most of the population want to buy.

Paul

[AWOL]

The government already makes judgements on the efficiency and polluting capacity of vehicles when it sets taxes on the motorist and has done so for a number of years following varying policies. It would be best if people made better choices but to choose too so nothing is having unbearable costs on our society. The way we live is clearly not sustainable. There are twice as many people on the world as when I was young and there are more pollutants in greater volumes being dumped into our ecosystem than ever before. The consequences can be seen in respiratory disease figures, infertility, declining species, resource conflicts, and human migration patterns. Choosing to do nothing is the greater evil.

[airbus330]

We are coming to the end of a definable era of personal freedom in transport that has been largely enjoyed without much need for worrying about the ramifications of that freedom. A 100 years ago people lived and died within a few miles of their birthplace. The advent of transport, then personal transport completely changed our way of life and our country. I've been lucky enough to live most of my life at the peak of that mobility freedom using 2 and 4 wheel devices as a method of earning money, the ability to go to places to earn money and for the sheer joy of being on wheels exploring our wonderful countryside. We are seeing the decline slowly accelerate, legislation, political policy, global warming and sheer overcrowding is degrading our car based society so that it will be just a transport solution that is needed in the future. If we break the emotional link with motoring it becomes easier to sanguinely decide to give them up and use an alternative. This seems to already be true for the millennial generation who have much more interest in green issues and have a pretty negative view of cars in general. My own kids, who have grown up with a petrol head father are distinctly uninterested in vehicles beyond personal convenience. They happily cycle or walk rather than own cars, and while acknowledging that they may need on one day, a cheap plastic battery powered transportation device is all they desire. I fully intend to be an enthusiastic ICE user until I am legislated out of existence, I reckon I have a fair chance of the grim reaper getting to me before the grim legislator!

[swill453]

We are coming to the end of a definable era of personal freedom in transport that has been largely enjoyed without much need for worrying about the ramifications of that freedom. A 100 years ago people lived and died within a few miles of their birthplace. The advent of transport, then personal transport completely changed our way of life and our country. I've been lucky enough to live most of my life at the peak of that mobility freedom using 2 and 4 wheel devices as a method of earning money, the ability to go to places to earn money and for the sheer joy of being on wheels exploring our wonderful countryside. We are seeing the decline slowly accelerate, legislation, political policy, global warming and sheer overcrowding is degrading our car based society so that it will be just a transport solution that is needed in the future. If we break the emotional link with motoring it becomes easier to sanguinely decide to give them up and use an alternative. This seems to already be true for the millennial generation who have much more interest in green issues and have a pretty negative view of cars in general. My own kids, who have grown up with a petrol head father are distinctly uninterested in vehicles beyond personal convenience. They happily cycle or walk rather than own cars, and while acknowledging that they may need on one day, a cheap plastic battery powered transportation device is all they desire. I fully intend to be an enthusiastic ICE user until I am legislated out of existence, I reckon I have a fair chance of the grim reaper getting to me before the grim legislator!

No arguments, but I think it'll take a while. I see more and more young people driving cars I could only have dreamt of at that age. Loads and loads of Audis, BMWs, plus sporty versions of lower end cars. No doubt fuelled by low interest leasing.

Scott.

[Dod101]

We are coming to the end of a definable era of personal freedom in transport that has been largely enjoyed without much need for worrying about the ramifications of that freedom. A 100 years ago people lived and died within a few miles of their birthplace. The advent of transport, then personal transport completely changed our way of life and our country. I've been lucky enough to live most of my life at the peak of that mobility freedom using 2 and 4 wheel devices as a method of earning money, the ability to go to places to earn money and for the sheer joy of being on wheels exploring our wonderful countryside. We are seeing the decline slowly accelerate, legislation, political policy, global warming and sheer overcrowding is degrading our car based society so that it will be just a transport solution that is needed in the future. If we break the emotional link with motoring it becomes easier to sanguinely decide to give them up and use an alternative. This seems to already be true for the millennial generation who have much more interest in green issues and have a pretty negative view of cars in general. My own kids, who have grown up with a petrol head father are distinctly uninterested in vehicles beyond personal convenience. They happily cycle or walk rather than own cars, and while acknowledging that they may need on one day, a cheap plastic battery powered transportation device is all they desire. I fully intend to be an enthusiastic ICE user until I am legislated out of existence, I reckon I have a fair chance of the grim reaper getting to me before the grim legislator!

No arguments, but I think it'll take a while. I see more and more young people driving cars I could only have dreamt of at that age. Loads and loads of Audis, BMWs, plus sporty versions of lower end cars. No doubt fuelled by low interest leasing.

Scott.

Yes I mentioned earlier that my daughter's family has four cars between four of them but the granddaughters's cars are both second hand, bought with cash.They tell me though that many of their friends have new cars and often expensive ones at that, bought on leasing deals. They like the personal freedom that a car brings as do I but I am not and never have been a petrol head in any sense.

Dod

[88V8]

I can see no excuse for the grotesque size and weight of modern cars.

It is simply a matter of choice. If people want SUVs then they should have them. If you don't like them then don't buy one.

No danger of me buying one or any other modern car - too big too complex.

The original Rangie was 175" long x 70" wide.
The current model is 197" x 78" so takes up 25% more road space.
And the weight has gone from 3,800lb to 5,000lb.... plus 30%.
Overweight barge.

No thankyou.

V8

[richlist]

The government already makes judgements on the efficiency and polluting capacity of vehicles when it sets taxes on the motorist and has done so for a number of years following varying policies. It would be best if people made better choices but to choose too so nothing is having unbearable costs on our society. The way we live is clearly not sustainable. There are twice as many people on the world as when I was young and there are more pollutants in greater volumes being dumped into our ecosystem than ever before. The consequences can be seen in respiratory disease figures, infertility, declining species, resource conflicts, and human migration patterns. Choosing to do nothing is the greater evil.

Like a large section of society i really couldn't care less about pollution. I will continue to buy, run, do, take part in all the things I currently enjoy until such time that legislation or financial constraints compels me to do otherwise. I'm not prepared to voluntarily adversely change my way of life in order to save the planet for future generations and I'm happy to be labelled 'evil'......

[kiloran]

I can see no excuse for the grotesque size and weight of modern cars.

It is simply a matter of choice. If people want SUVs then they should have them. If you don't like them then don't buy one.

No danger of me buying one or any other modern car - too big too complex.

The original Rangie was 175" long x 70" wide.
The current model is 197" x 78" so takes up 25% more road space.
And the weight has gone from 3,800lb to 5,000lb.... plus 30%.
Overweight barge.

No thankyou.

V8

We keep hearing about the chip shortage. Now we know where they all went, the Range Rover consumed them all, with a bad effect on its waistline

--kiloran

[DrFfybes]

No danger of me buying one or any other modern car - too big too complex.

The original Rangie was 175" long x 70" wide.
The current model is 197" x 78" so takes up 25% more road space.
And the weight has gone from 3,800lb to 5,000lb.... plus 30%.
Overweight barge.

No thankyou.

V8

New mini Countryman weighs the same as a Mk1 Landy, and is larger.

It's all the modern kit, side impact bars, crumple zones, airbags, ABS pumps, pedestrian friendly bodywork.

Ban it all I say, bring back the Viva

Paul

[staffordian]

No danger of me buying one or any other modern car - too big too complex.

The original Rangie was 175" long x 70" wide.
The current model is 197" x 78" so takes up 25% more road space.
And the weight has gone from 3,800lb to 5,000lb.... plus 30%.
Overweight barge.

No thankyou.

V8

New mini Countryman weighs the same as a Mk1 Landy, and is larger.

It's all the modern kit, side impact bars, crumple zones, airbags, ABS pumps, pedestrian friendly bodywork.

Ban it all I say, bring back the Viva

Paul

I was with you until you mentioned the Viva

Learned to drive in my Dad's 1966 HA Viva, which he spent more time repairing, body filling and servicing than driving, after which I owned an equally unreliable HC, as well as foolishly buying the aforementioned HA after Dad wisely bought a marginally less unreliable motor...

[bungeejumper]

Learned to drive in my Dad's 1966 HA Viva, which he spent more time repairing, body filling and servicing than driving, after which I owned an equally unreliable HC, as well as foolishly buying the aforementioned HA after Dad wisely bought a marginally less unreliable motor...

Ah, but just think of all the essential life skills we picked up in the process. How to fix dicey electrics built from metals that rusted. How to change our own brake pads and wheel bearings. How to clean a carburettor. How to decoke an engine with a tube of goo from Halfords. (You drove the car at red-hot revs to some lonely and deserted country lane, where the ensuing clouds of thick toxic vapour would only poison the hedgehogs, not the neighbours who would be bound to complain.)

But today's youth? Pshah, they don't even own a torque wrench. Or a feeler gauge. Or a Colortune. Not proper car owners at all, in fact.

BJ

[redsturgeon]

But today's youth? Pshah, they don't even own a torque wrench. Or a feeler gauge. Or a Colortune. Not proper car owners at all, in fact.

BJ

Ah Colourtune, that takes me back! I can almost smell the Castrol R as I am typing.


John

[GrahamPlatt]

I can see where the OP is coming from, and admire it. For all that, I fail miserably, having several vehicles.
To many people, it’s car/no car, but to me it’s what car for what job? Cars, and motorcycles, tend to be made for a particular job, and just one won’t cut it. Like CK, I have a “posh” car (not so posh as CK’s) and a little 4x4 for the rough stuff. I also have a VW Transporter for the heavier lifting, plus a 7m camper van, a sports motorcycle and a tourer: Just as well I don’t do trials or moto-cross as well. Not one vehicle can do what the others do. However, I can only use one at once, and I probably don’t use all of them put together for more than 15000 miles a year, yet pay the taxes and insurance for all of them - so I am subsidising “the system”. Madness, I know.

[didds]

If there are four drivers in the household and they live in a rural location, then I can see how they would need four vehicles, depending on their schedules.

Yup. Round here public transport is... limited. So for four people to all get to work in different directions at roughly the same time its a necessity.

Ive said before (as lootman says here) in some places a car is a necessity, not a luxury.

You cant get to the nearest railhead for the the first six trains a day in EITHER direction here, and cant get back after 1715.

none of our vehicles is "posh" - the most recent is 11 years old.

didds

[SimonS]

No danger of me buying one or any other modern car - too big too complex.

The original Rangie was 175" long x 70" wide.
The current model is 197" x 78" so takes up 25% more road space.
And the weight has gone from 3,800lb to 5,000lb.... plus 30%.
Overweight barge.

No thankyou.

V8

New mini Countryman weighs the same as a Mk1 Landy, and is larger.

It's all the modern kit, side impact bars, crumple zones, airbags, ABS pumps, pedestrian friendly bodywork.

Ban it all I say, bring back the Viva

Paul

At the weekend I saw a real Mini, an Issigonis original, not an overfed Baby Beemer. It was being overtaken by an Audi SUV .
The Mini was almost lower than the window line of the Audi!
Mini = 83 inches long, 55 inches wide, 53 inches high, weight 605 kg, engine 1000-1275cc, power 76 hp, gears 4. seats 4
Audi Q5 = 183 inches long, 75 inches wide, 65 inches high, weight 1850kg, engine 2000--3200cc, power 266 hp gears 8. seats 4
audi Q7 = 202 , 78 68 2605 3000-6000 493 8 seats 4

The Mini did 45 to the gallon, the Q7 holds the German "Golden Vulture" award for being spectacularly greedy. Its engine weighs 225 kg before adding the air conditioning and control equipment.

[GrahamPlatt]

Mini = 83 inches long, 55 inches wide, 53 inches high, weight 605 kg, engine 1000-1275cc, power 76 hp, gears 4. seats 4

I had an 850cc mini.

[rikutafes]

I love my car but hate driving it 70% of the time. City driving is something that I avoid like the plague, the only time when I'll use the car is if my destination is very far away or if it's raining. Country roads or twisty mountain roads in the other hand are a bliss and make up for the pain in the a** that is driving in the city especially in a manual car.

[Howard]

We live in London. All this malarky with queues for petrol has made me very glad I don’t own a car. A few years ago our car was on its last legs and we needed to get a new one. We thought long and hard and decided, mainly on environmental grounds, to go without a car for a bit and see if we could manage.

......................


I’m sure there must be some of you out there, if you really think about it, who could do it

We sat out in the garden today in the sunshine. It was completely silent apart from the birds singing in the hedgerow. I'll probably go for a stroll in the fields a few yards away later on.

It's worth owning a car here and, as a low mileage driver with a BEV, petrol shortages were just a news item for us.

Picked up someone from Heathrow recently and drove into a big city the other day. I have become aware that one can smell the traffic fumes walking through busy streets. It's nice to get a flavour of how the other half live but it's very relaxing to be able to come back to a village lifestyle.

I'm glad you enjoy living in a big city. I too enjoy the buzz of an occasional trip to London but I always enjoy coming home.

regards

Howard