Expensive electricity

[sg31]

It's always amazed me how freezers are usually kept in a heated kitchen.....surely that means they have to work a lot harder ? We keep ours in an unheated room.

Most freezers don't work at low temperatures. I can't remember if it is 5 or 10 degrees C. They may not be doing their job in an unheated room during the worst of the winter.

It's worth checking the specifications of a freezer before buying if it's going to be kept in an unheated room.

I have a Beko fridge freezer in my garage. That may not have been my first choice of manufacturer but it works fine in winter. (I use it to store fishing bait)

[richlist]

It's always amazed me how freezers are usually kept in a heated kitchen.....surely that means they have to work a lot harder ? We keep ours in an unheated room.

Most freezers don't work at low temperatures. I can't remember if it is 5 or 10 degrees C. They may not be doing their job in an unheated room during the worst of the winter.

It's worth checking the specifications of a freezer before buying if it's going to be kept in an unheated room.

I have a Beko fridge freezer in my garage. That may not have been my first choice of manufacturer but it works fine in winter. (I use it to store fishing bait)

That's correct but some do work at low temperatures and obviously buying one to suit that environment can save money......which is what this thread is about

[UncleEbenezer]

Last time I bought a fridge-freezer (ballpark 5 years ago), I noticed that they all tell you (as standard) whether they're suitable for outdoor use, or indoor-only. Seems no big deal, just something to pay attention to if it's to go outside. I suspect damp, cobwebs, leaves and general detritus may be more of an issue than temperature alone, at least when it's above freezing. That was both freezers and fridge-freezers alike: it's not just a one-thermometer issue.

I don't think any of them claimed to work more efficiently in cold conditions. I expect if you read the manual of an outdoor-capable freezer carefully it might say something on the subject.

[scrumpyjack]

If freezers keep stuff frozen for quite a long time in the event of a power cut, is it feasible to put it on a timer switch so it only runs on night cheap rate electricity, maybe setting the temperature lower to ensure all stays sufficiently deep frozen in the day?

[swill453]

If freezers keep stuff frozen for quite a long time in the event of a power cut, is it feasible to put it on a timer switch so it only runs on night cheap rate electricity, maybe setting the temperature lower to ensure all stays sufficiently deep frozen in the day?

You'd have to make sure you only opened the door at night too!

Scott.

[scrumpyjack]

If freezers keep stuff frozen for quite a long time in the event of a power cut, is it feasible to put it on a timer switch so it only runs on night cheap rate electricity, maybe setting the temperature lower to ensure all stays sufficiently deep frozen in the day?

You'd have to make sure you only opened the door at night too!

Scott.

Yes for an upright freezer but a chest freezer should stay cold?

[AF62]

If freezers keep stuff frozen for quite a long time in the event of a power cut, is it feasible to put it on a timer switch so it only runs on night cheap rate electricity, maybe setting the temperature lower to ensure all stays sufficiently deep frozen in the day?

Theoretically possible, at the time of the hurricane back in the 80s we were without electricity for almost a week. We left the freezer closed but four or five days later when we did open it the stuff in there was still frozen.

However modern upright frost free freezers don’t just cool but also heat. The compressor chills a panel that air is blown over to cool the inside of the freezer (and fridge), but every so often a heating element then activates to melt the ice on the panel (and the fan doesn’t run then) then the cooling starts again.

[88V8]

Beko is the only mainstream manufacturer that rates its freezers as good for unheated outbuildings.
We just bought one for our brick shed.

Compared to the old Hotpoint it displaced - not rated for outdoors but bought second-hand and it worked with us for nine years until the rust became too rusty - errm,. where was I... oh yes, the better insulated Beko of the same external dims has 6% less internal space.

Our upright Whirlpool - which we still have - lived in a shed at our previous home. I built a sort of insulated vertical coffin around it, and wired it through a thermostat that switched the supply off at low temperatures. That seemed to work as well, at any rate it carried on working and is still working here ten years after we moved house.

V8

[UncleEbenezer]

Beko is the only mainstream manufacturer that rates its freezers as good for unheated outbuildings.
We just bought one for our brick shed.

On the subject of fridge-freezers outdoors ...

When I moved in 2005, I bought a cheap Candy fridge-freezer. It wasn't my first choice, but that never turned up (Comet screwed up my order altogether), and after rather too long with nothing I placed an order with Argos for something they had in stock. Argos ordering and deliveries were blissfully quick and efficient at the time (sadly no longer).

When I moved in 2013, it went outdoors. This was early May, so I thought that should be OK. The kitchen had space for an under-the-counter fridge, and I was told my predecessor had had a freezer in the outhouse, where there was indeed power and light.

About this time of year, it came inside. Not ideal: I had to get an extension power lead, and it partially blocked the back door: I could just squeeze through. So it was outside for approximately five months, being the warmest part of the year.

It then started misbehaving. Mildly at first, but progressively worse. After a couple of years it got replaced.

Correlation is not causation, but it seems entirely likely the spell outside damaged its health leading to its demise.

I ended up getting a replacement that was similar, but a little narrower so as to block the door fractionally less. I did try to order a pair of separates instead: under-the-counter fridge and outdoor freezer, but the ones I tried to order turned out to have too long a waiting time. I guess I could've tried harder, but I'd acclimatised to the arrangement of the kitchen.

[1nvest]

My weekly electricity consumption averages about 60 kWh, down to maybe 53 in summer and up to 65 in winter, reflecting the amount of lighting needed. Big users are kettle, fan oven, washing machine and dishwasher. Using short cycles and lower temperature washes helps.

Gas consumption varies much more widely, of course. 1.5 Hcf in a summer week and up to 30Hcf in the depths of winter. I leave the thermostat to decide whether or not heating is required. Hot water gets brought up to temperature 3 times a day.

We used more when our family was at home and my mother-in-law lived with us.

Perhaps those high users are charging up their electric cars.

TJH

My mother is a similar age to you Terry, and she has both the central heating and a 2 bar (2KW) living room electric fire running through most of winter, 18 hours/day type heating. She feels the cold terribly (more recently has even been taking a hot water bottle to bed during what I consider to be warm nights). So around twice your average weekly usage in just that fire alone. 2Kwh 16 hours/day for around 4 months/year, 1Kwh x 16 hours/day for around another 4 months/year, 112kwh/week average). A very large detached bungalow with large old style leaded windows/patio doors so many exterior walls/ceilings and relatively poor insulation levels. Wont move nor is she willing to have the considerable numbers of doors/windows replaced with more insulated/modern versions.

[UncleEbenezer]

My mother is a similar age to you Terry, and she has both the central heating and a 2 bar (2KW) living room electric fire running through most of winter, 18 hours/day type heating. She feels the cold terribly (more recently has even been taking a hot water bottle to bed during what I consider to be warm nights). So around twice your average weekly usage in just that fire alone. 2Kwh 16 hours/day for around 4 months/year, 1Kwh x 16 hours/day for around another 4 months/year, 112kwh/week average). A very large detached bungalow with large old style leaded windows/patio doors so many exterior walls/ceilings and relatively poor insulation levels. Wont move nor is she willing to have the considerable numbers of doors/windows replaced with more insulated/modern versions.

Whilst I understand that older people, particularly those with certain medical conditions, feel the cold, I find that level of extreme profligacy and the refusal to do anything about it (as in your last sentence) utterly inexcusable. If her bills are a problem, I have not merely no sympathy, I'd consider it a Very Good Thing that she's incentivised to consider the alternatives she's refusing.

[richlist]

We've had a freezer in an unheated room in my current property for 20 years and a previous property before that. It's a Creda Coldstore, I don't suppose they make it currently, I can't remember how long we've had it.....but it's at least 12 years. No signs of rust or any other problems. Running costs are miniscule. It's a room where we store food, household supplies & in fact any consumable for the property.

[bungeejumper]

We're still using a fridge and a freezer in our (unheated) garage, both of which we inherited more than 25 years ago. They're getting superficially rusty now but they're both still going strong.

They are, of course, both full of CFCs, which won't do the planet any (further) harm until the day when they're finally broken up - hopefully under special conditions, although I wouldn't necessarily bank on that. ** I don't know how much electricity they use, because not even the labels would give me a realistic daily quote - but I fear that it's probably more than a modern pair of appliances. I can only speculate on the lifetime environmental balance between not having scrapped them on the one hand, and using a bit more power on the other. For 25 years.....

BJ

** Some years ago, our neighbour put his old CFC fridge freezer out for the council to collect, and he duly paid the fee for the safe disposal of the CFCs. That wasn't how it turned out on the day, however. Instead, a council bin lorry turned up, and the two burly occupants hurled it into the back. And then turned on the compactor. Bye bye ozone layer. We did try, honestly.

[UncleEbenezer]

We've had a freezer in an unheated room in my current property for 20 years and a previous property before that.

We're still using a fridge and a freezer in our (unheated) garage, both of which we inherited more than 25 years ago. They're getting superficially rusty now but they're both still going strong.

Perhaps these might be cases of:

I suspect damp, cobwebs, leaves and general detritus may be more of an issue than temperature alone, at least when it's above freezing.

I can only speculate on the lifetime environmental balance between not having scrapped them on the one hand, and using a bit more power on the other. For 25 years.....

Indeed, speculate is all any of us can do there (maybe even if we have an expert among us). My gut feeling would be, if it's working well and not showing signs of stress then you're on the right side of that speculation. A modern replacement might save something on a year's running, but against that you set not just manufacturing and disposal costs, but also the risk that the replacement lacks the reliability and longevity of your old kit.

[1nvest]

My mother is a similar age to you Terry, and she has both the central heating and a 2 bar (2KW) living room electric fire running through most of winter, 18 hours/day type heating. She feels the cold terribly (more recently has even been taking a hot water bottle to bed during what I consider to be warm nights). So around twice your average weekly usage in just that fire alone. 2Kwh 16 hours/day for around 4 months/year, 1Kwh x 16 hours/day for around another 4 months/year, 112kwh/week average). A very large detached bungalow with large old style leaded windows/patio doors so many exterior walls/ceilings and relatively poor insulation levels. Wont move nor is she willing to have the considerable numbers of doors/windows replaced with more insulated/modern versions.

Whilst I understand that older people, particularly those with certain medical conditions, feel the cold, I find that level of extreme profligacy and the refusal to do anything about it (as in your last sentence) utterly inexcusable. If her bills are a problem, I have not merely no sympathy, I'd consider it a Very Good Thing that she's incentivised to consider the alternatives she's refusing.

It's a unusual property, metal windows/doors built into the walls so quite a major and expensive task to replace even a single window/door, and there's around 15 of such. Large loft space has been thickly/deeply insulated, as have the cavity walls been injected with insulation. I'd guess for the window/door replacements perhaps a £60K type cost and given the land area in a relatively high population/density area more likely the property would be purchased to be demolished and have 4 houses, 8 maisonettes, 12 flats built instead. It's been her home for 50+ years, originally built within a apple tree orchard where most of the other larger houses around have over time either been converted into flats or demolished and other more modern properties built. U shaped drive in drive out with detached doubled garage at the front, a large rear garden with a property locked large additional area beyond that belonging to a neighbouring road property (unlike its neighbouring properties it has access/control over that additional land area). My intent is to purchase that property whenever it comes up for sale to create a combined large development area. I'd crudely conservatively guess a £1.5M outlay for a £3M return so technically valuing her property at £1.5M but I suspect £1M if sold as-is.

Her bills aren't a problem as I deal with those. Near/at the point of where she should be in a care home but again as her only child I deal with that (separate property within a short walk but more recently I'm living more with her). Tried a care home but I couldn't take her out without her having to isolate in the bedroom for two weeks upon return with no visits or further outings a.k.a imprisonment due to Covid. Outside of that I'd be more inclined for her to sleep in the care home with me picking her up each morning and dropping her back again in the evening. She's 90 next month with mild/moderate vascular dementia so making best of what time remains and renovation/building works are way down on the list of priorities.

[bungeejumper]

Indeed, speculate is all any of us can do there (maybe even if we have an expert among us). My gut feeling would be, if it's working well and not showing signs of stress then you're on the right side of that speculation. A modern replacement might save something on a year's running, but against that you set not just manufacturing and disposal costs, but also the risk that the replacement lacks the reliability and longevity of your old kit.

Happy to be contradicted, but my recollection is that the bad old CFCs were in fact highly efficient, and that the CFC-free systems that replaced them after the 1995 Montreal Protocol used more leccy. That's probably changed nowadays, but probably only because modern fridges and freezers are better insulated. (There are also different rules about whether the tubes at the back should be exposed or boxed in. The latter these days, I think?)

Sadly, though, none of this is going to change the fact that China is still building CFC freezers. https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... nned-cfcs/ Or that the hydrofluorocarbons used in modern air conditioners and heat pumps are not a whole lot better than CFCs.

BJ

[richlist]

Sounds like we are all doomed in spite of the attempt on TV early evening, yesterday to persuade us otherwise.

[gryffron]

Happy to be contradicted, but my recollection is that the bad old CFCs were in fact highly efficient, and that the CFC-free systems that replaced them after the 1995 Montreal Protocol used more leccy. That's probably changed nowadays, but probably only because modern fridges and freezers are better insulated. (There are also different rules about whether the tubes at the back should be exposed or boxed in. The latter these days, I think?)
Sadly, though, none of this is going to change the fact that China is still building CFC freezers. https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... nned-cfcs/ Or that the hydrofluorocarbons used in modern air conditioners and heat pumps are not a whole lot better than CFCs.

The big problem with replacement refrigerants was stability, not efficiency. CFCs are very stable, they last forever. Which is of course the main reason they are so bad for the environment. Their early replacements were very poor and unlikely to last more than 7-10 years before chemical breakdown. More recent replacements are getting better.

Gryff

[UncleEbenezer]

If freezers keep stuff frozen for quite a long time in the event of a power cut, is it feasible to put it on a timer switch so it only runs on night cheap rate electricity, maybe setting the temperature lower to ensure all stays sufficiently deep frozen in the day?

That may be outdated thinking. I'd expect the next generation of refrigeration to work dynamically with real-time information from the smart meter to optimise operation.

[servodude]

If freezers keep stuff frozen for quite a long time in the event of a power cut, is it feasible to put it on a timer switch so it only runs on night cheap rate electricity, maybe setting the temperature lower to ensure all stays sufficiently deep frozen in the day?

That may be outdated thinking. I'd expect the next generation of refrigeration to work dynamically with real-time information from the smart meter to optimise operation.

most of the cost reduction power stuff I've seen is ADR style https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Automated_Demand_Response
- turning stuff off when things are more expensive than you want

Not sure a fridge freezer would be very good candidate for this kind of thing given the power required to hold a closed unit at temp is pretty low (insulation doing most of the work at steady state with the doors closed)
- the comms and logic will add a power and cost budget but... if you could tolerate them being connected to a solenoid lock on the door!?

A dual target temp might be an easily workable scheme - change the freezer target to a lower one overnight and you'd get a few "free opens" during the day
- sd