Hong Kong handover to China

[Dod101]

Not sure this is the right place but never mind. This evening (HKtime) the Government of Hong Kong was returned to China. I cannot sleep until passed midnight because HK was my life for a long time and I feel very strongly about it. In fact of course it was one of the great successes of the British Empire (like Singapore in some ways). It started as a 'barren rock with ne're a house upon it' as Lord Palmerston was said to have called it in 1841 when it was taken by the British. It will survive of course although President Xi has not the slightest understanding of it, it would seem.
All very sad.

Dod

[mc2fool]

Ummm...unless I've missed some news item the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region is still (nominally at least) in Hong Kong; it hasn't (yet) been moved to Beijing.

What's today is the 25th anniversary of our handover of HK to China and that's what's in the news.

I'm not really sure why Maggie decided to hand it all over in the first place. It was only the New Territories that were on a 99 year lease. Still I suppose the possibility of the People's Liberation Army rolling into Kowloon and pointing their artillery across at the island, and the sweet f.a. we'd be able to do about it, might have been a factor....

[Lootman]

I'm not really sure why Maggie decided to hand it all over in the first place. It was only the New Territories that were on a 99 year lease. Still I suppose the possibility of the People's Liberation Army rolling into Kowloon and pointing their artillery across at the island, and the sweet f.a. we'd be able to do about it, might have been a factor....

As I recall from my time working in Hong Kong in the 1980s, all of the infrastructure for Victoria (Hong Kong Island) was on the Kowloon peninsula.

So the water reservoirs and pumps, power stations, rail stations, airport (Kai Tek) and most of the port facilities were in Kowloon. Not to mention most of the people.

So whilst the UK could legally have retained the island, it would have been at the mercy of the Chinese anyway. I think it made sense to concede the entire territory. I was back there a few years ago and it didn't seem much different, although then again I don't have to live there all the time.

[Dod101]

Ummm...unless I've missed some news item the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region is still (nominally at least) in Hong Kong; it hasn't (yet) been moved to Beijing.

What's today is the 25th anniversary of our handover of HK to China and that's what's in the news.

I'm not really sure why Maggie decided to hand it all over in the first place. It was only the New Territories that were on a 99 year lease. Still I suppose the possibility of the People's Liberation Army rolling into Kowloon and pointing their artillery across at the island, and the sweet f.a. we'd be able to do about it, might have been a factor....

Nowadays the Government might as well be in Beijing as the HK Government is entirely under the control of Beijing, and the Chief Executive is and has been for a long while a nominee of China.

If your comment re the handover is half serious, it would have been entirely unrealistic for only the New Territories to be handed back as the whole area was and is nowadays an integrated whole. There are also the reasons cited by Lootman, but HK always was dependent on China for foodstuffs, water and so on and so China always held the upper hand.

Dod

[mc2fool]

As I recall from my time working in Hong Kong in the 1980s, all of the infrastructure for Victoria (Hong Kong Island) was on the Kowloon peninsula.

So the water reservoirs and pumps, power stations, rail stations, airport (Kai Tek) and most of the port facilities were in Kowloon.

Kowloon was also "ours".

For those unfamiliar, see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Map_of_Hong_Kong.svg/900px-Map_of_Hong_Kong.svg.png

Hong Kong Island and Kowloon were "ours", only the New Territories (yes, most of HK) was on a 99 year lease (Victoria was the city, not the island). The approach into the old Kai Tak airport was one of the more, umm, interesting I've experienced.

Ummm...unless I've missed some news item the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region is still (nominally at least) in Hong Kong; it hasn't (yet) been moved to Beijing.

Nowadays the Government might as well be in Beijing as the HK Government is entirely under the control of Beijing, and the Chief Executive is and has been for a long while a nominee of China.

Hence my "(nominally at least)".

[Dod101]

I flew in and out of the old Kai Tak Airport more times than I care to remember but the most scary was late one evening in midsummer, pouring rain, a thunderstorm and taking off with a full load. I was fortunate enough to fly at least latterly, mostly in First and to sit up front with lightning all around and rain battering down was uncomfortable to say the least. I did though have faith in Cathay which has always been a well run airline.

It is all over for me now though, although I could still recommend it as a visitor if they can ever get clear of the Covid restrictions (and before anyone tells me they have I have no interest in visiting in midsummer anyway)

Dod

[Lootman]

I flew in and out of the old Kai Tak Airport more times than I care to remember but the most scary was late one evening in midsummer, pouring rain, a thunderstorm and taking off with a full load. I was fortunate enough to fly at least latterly, mostly in First and to sit up front with lightning all around and rain battering down was uncomfortable to say the least. I did though have faith in Cathay which has always been a well run airline.

Every now and then planes would take off that way. They would have to make a hard 60 degree left turn shortly after takeoff to avoid the mountains dead ahead.

As for 1997, I guess I cannot recall exactly where the boundary was but everyone I spoke to back then said that HKI and Tsim Sha Tsui were not viable without the peninsula.

I do recall a bar called 1997 in mid-Levels that heralded the demise. That last night must have been some party there

[Dod101]

I flew in and out of the old Kai Tak Airport more times than I care to remember but the most scary was late one evening in midsummer, pouring rain, a thunderstorm and taking off with a full load. I was fortunate enough to fly at least latterly, mostly in First and to sit up front with lightning all around and rain battering down was uncomfortable to say the least. I did though have faith in Cathay which has always been a well run airline.

Every now and then planes would take off that way. They would have to make a hard 60 degree left turn shortly after takeoff to avoid the mountains dead ahead.

As for 1997, I guess I cannot recall exactly where the boundary was but everyone I spoke to back then said that HKI and Tsim Sha Tsui were not viable without the peninsula.

I do recall a bar called 1997 in mid-Levels that heralded the demise. That last night must have been some party there

Fortunately or otherwise I had left Hong Kong and retired by then although there was a get together organised at Sandown Racecourse for the handover and shall we say 'a few drinks'.

Whether or not the Island and the Kowloon peninsula would have been viable alone was not really a serious argument because the Chinese would simply not have allowed it anyway. In fact Boundary Street in Kowloon, marking, would you believe?, the boundary, is in the middle of a built up area of Kowloon. Nowadays even more so with the underground railway, the MTR, running right out to what in my day were mostly rice paddies.

Dod

[mc2fool]

Whether or not the Island and the Kowloon peninsula would have been viable alone was not really a serious argument because the Chinese would simply not have allowed it anyway.

Yeah, that's really the point (and hence my comment in my OP re the PLA marching in). There are smaller places in the world that carry on fine, importing what they need, etc, but that does depend on being able to make diplomatic agreements with non-belligerent neighbours!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration#Negotiations

"The goals of the Chinese government were made clear from the beginning of the process. China would resume both sovereignty and administration over Hong Kong in 1997. It would do this by force if necessary... ...the Chinese would not accept anything less than a full reversion of Hong Kong.
:
Thatcher later recounted that Deng had told her directly "I could walk in and take the whole lot this afternoon," to which she replied, "There is nothing I could do to stop you, but the eyes of the world would now know what China is like.""

[Dod101]

Whether or not the Island and the Kowloon peninsula would have been viable alone was not really a serious argument because the Chinese would simply not have allowed it anyway.

Yeah, that's really the point (and hence my comment in my OP re the PLA marching in). There are smaller places in the world that carry on fine, importing what they need, etc, but that does depend on being able to make diplomatic agreements with non-belligerent neighbours!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration#Negotiations

"The goals of the Chinese government were made clear from the beginning of the process. China would resume both sovereignty and administration over Hong Kong in 1997. It would do this by force if necessary... ...the Chinese would not accept anything less than a full reversion of Hong Kong.
:
Thatcher later recounted that Deng had told her directly "I could walk in and take the whole lot this afternoon," to which she replied, "There is nothing I could do to stop you, but the eyes of the world would now know what China is like.""

In fact, however the Chinese may be behaving now with HK in respect to the Joint Declaration, they behaved properly enough with HK during the time of the British rule. Deng Xiao Ping was a much more moderate man than any of the current lot I think. Of course for much of the 150 or so years China could not have done much anyway and latterly it was very much in their interests not to upset any apple carts as they needed HK to help further their own development. It is very different now.

Dod