Smart meter not communicating

[forgotusername]

Hi, I had a new smart meter installed in early July. my home monitor continued to show "waiting for tariff" etc and I continued to be asked to submit my own meter readings. Eventually, I managed to get the installers back to re-commision the meter. This was completed yesterday and they said it could take up to 24 hours as the energy company had to carry out a number of steps too. Nothing has changed so I rang the energy supplier (Shell) who told me I would have to have a replacement meter and the lead time is another couple of months.

I've pressed for an earlier appointment but I'm wondering if they really know what the problem is. My understanding is that the meter uses a discrete network to send and receive data, independent of Internet or phone. The meter is located in one of those plastic cupboards inside my garage. Could the communication signal be getting blocked or degraded by the steel up and over door? Would an installer normally test whether a new meter is sending data to the local collection "hub" before departing?

I'm worried that they will fit another meter and it will still not work because it's not a meter fault but I know next to nothing about them. Anyone here have any useful advice or information on the subject?

[chas49]

How the meter connects to the network depends on where you live.

Broadly, if you live in Scotland or the North of England (very roughly north of a line a little above Liverpool as far as I can see),

Long-Range Radio communications (LRR) is used by Arqiva Limited in Scotland and the North of England. The LRR system uses infrastructure and technology similar to that already used for other important national communications networks, such as those for emergency services and keeping lifeboat stations connected. Communication towers communicate directly with smart meter Communications Hubs in homes.

Elsewhere,

The 2G/3G cellular radio communications network is used by Telefónica (O2) in the rest of England and Wales. This system is commonly used by mobile phones. In a cellular system, geographical areas are divided into regular shaped "cells".

Additionally Telefónica also use local mesh networks to fill in the mobile coverage gaps.



Read more at: https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html © SmartMe.co.uk

So, if you live in the 'rest of England & Wales', you might be able to 'test' yourself if you have an O2 mobile. If the signal is poor when the garage door is closed, you have your answer!

It does rather sound as if they set it up with the garage open (obviously), and didn't check what happens when it's closed.

[forgotusername]

I live near Bristol. Our mobile signal here is poor but usable but it's not O2 so can't test as suggested. Yes, the steel door was open when the engineer worked on the meter. Is it possible to boost the signal in such situations?

[Mike4]

Hi, I had a new smart meter installed in early July.

Never mind, we all make mistakes.

[servodude]

I live near Bristol. Our mobile signal here is poor but usable but it's not O2 so can't test as suggested. Yes, the steel door was open when the engineer worked on the meter. Is it possible to boost the signal in such situations?

"Boosting" a signal in these circumstances would normally require adding an external antenna

I'm not sure if just opening a door would make enough of a difference if the rest of the structure is operating as a faraday cage - it would rely on the transmitting antenna being line of sight visible through the door

It would certainly be possible in theory to check whether the device was visible on the network when installed - but possibly not practical depending on who has access to that information, and how any given hardware works.
It is also not uncommon for devices to be installed and then commissioned for network access remotely; even if the hardware works they are at the mercy of a good deal of paperwork - but it sounds like this is the last thing they were waiting for and it has not helped.
There could well be an indicator on the device for RSSI (signal strength, or "bars") which would given a techie at least some idea that the thing was capable of seeing a network.
If you know the model of meter you might be able to find a manual online - which would allow you to decypher any comms info stuff presented on the screen?

-sd

[Bminusrob]

How the meter connects to the network depends on where you live.

Broadly, if you live in Scotland or the North of England (very roughly north of a line a little above Liverpool as far as I can see),

Long-Range Radio communications (LRR) is used by Arqiva Limited in Scotland and the North of England. The LRR system uses infrastructure and technology similar to that already used for other important national communications networks, such as those for emergency services and keeping lifeboat stations connected. Communication towers communicate directly with smart meter Communications Hubs in homes.

Elsewhere,

The 2G/3G cellular radio communications network is used by Telefónica (O2) in the rest of England and Wales. This system is commonly used by mobile phones. In a cellular system, geographical areas are divided into regular shaped "cells".

Additionally Telefónica also use local mesh networks to fill in the mobile coverage gaps.



Read more at: https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html © SmartMe.co.uk

So, if you live in the 'rest of England & Wales', you might be able to 'test' yourself if you have an O2 mobile. If the signal is poor when the garage door is closed, you have your answer!

It does rather sound as if they set it up with the garage open (obviously), and didn't check what happens when it's closed.

When I read things like this, I am glad I am bald - because tearing my own hair out hurts. What is smart about using 2G or 3G? it has been common knowledge for about 10 years that 2G and 3G would be phased out in the short term, and using one network is asking for trouble. In my previous house, in a moment of madness, I succombed to the pressure, and agreed to have a smart meter installed. The installer turned up, and within 5 minutes said I couldn't have a smart meter because he couldn't get a phone signal. Smart? I think not.

Now, I will fight tooth and nail to keep my current meter, because changing to a smart meter just isn't smart.

As for the OP, it really sounds like a case of mis-selling. I would insist on the meter being replaced by a non-smart meter without charge. Good luck.

[forgotusername]

"we all make mistakes" and
"fight tooth and nail to keep my current meter"

Well, I opted to have a smart meter installed since it has been announced that consumers would be paid to use off peak power, at the rate of £3 per kWh. Owning an electric car means I use a fair amount of electricity at about 32p per kWh. Off peak charging is not onerous and whilst this scheme has some limits, it looks worth seeking to participate.

I don't see any advantage to keeping my current meter. My smart meter does exactly the same job. I records how much electricity I'm using and I can still send meter readings manually. The fact that the meter isn't communicating doesn't mean it is worse than my old meter or that there would be any advantage to reverting to one.

[modellingman]

In my previous house, in a moment of madness, I succombed to the pressure, and agreed to have a smart meter installed. The installer turned up, and within 5 minutes said I couldn't have a smart meter because he couldn't get a phone signal. Smart? I think not.

This is a perfect illustration of how the long chain between policy ("universal smart metering" in this case) and policy implementation often gets things wrong.

In the case of universal smart metering, the first and biggest mistake was to put implementation into the hands of the suppliers rather than the distribution network operators (DNOs). That resulted in the SMETS1 debacle whereby smart meters lost their smarts on a change of supplier. That error is still slowly being unwound a decade on but it has resulted in a lot of customer resistance to smart metering so making the policy harder to implement. Subsequent implementation errors (all avoidable in my view) like your own experience and that of the OP - lack of address screening and comms testing prior to installation - just add to that resistance.

Universal smart metering has sensible policy objectives, specifically facilitating time of day tariffs (as is the case now in Spain) which in turn improve infrastructure and system efficiency.

Unfortunately, the implementation screw-ups give smart meters a bad name but I think it important to distinguish between the technology and how it is implemented. The former is smart but the latter, at times, is not.

modellingman

[XFool]

This is a perfect illustration of how the long chain between policy ("universal smart metering" in this case) and policy implementation often gets things wrong.

Universal smart metering has sensible policy objectives, specifically facilitating time of day tariffs (as is the case now in Spain) which in turn improve infrastructure and system efficiency.

How was the communications aspect implemented in Spain?

Unfortunately, the implementation screw-ups give smart meters a bad name but I think it important to distinguish between the technology and how it is implemented. The former is smart but the latter, at times, is not.

Yes, it was these kinds of things that originally put me off them

[modellingman]

This is a perfect illustration of how the long chain between policy ("universal smart metering" in this case) and policy implementation often gets things wrong.

Universal smart metering has sensible policy objectives, specifically facilitating time of day tariffs (as is the case now in Spain) which in turn improve infrastructure and system efficiency.

How was the communications aspect implemented in Spain?

I'm not entirely sure, but this short article (of unknown date) suggests, if I'm reading it correctly, that power lines to customer premises from substations form the initial leg of the communications architecture. https://www.dnv.com/cases/smart-meter-r ... pain-42889

Not part of your question but perhaps of interest is the current version of Spain's time of day tariffs as described in this article.
https://euroweeklynews.com/2021/06/05/s ... ble-chart/

In Spain, there was no choice about whether or not to have a smart meter. It is almost universally the case that meters are located in external meter boxes accessible from the street or a public staircase. I only realised I'd got one when I happened to notice a man in a van working his way up my street swapping them out.

modellingman

[XFool]

In Spain, there was no choice about whether or not to have a smart meter. It is almost universally the case that meters are located in external meter boxes accessible from the street or a public staircase. I only realised I'd got one when I happened to notice a man in a van working his way up my street swapping them out.

This is happening (at least they said it was, rather a long time ago now) wrt wireless water meters in my area.

[AF62]

I live near Bristol. Our mobile signal here is poor but usable but it's not O2 so can't test as suggested. Yes, the steel door was open when the engineer worked on the meter. Is it possible to boost the signal in such situations?

"Boosting" a signal in these circumstances would normally require adding an external antenna

And the meter installers have the option to install such antenna - https://docplayer.net/86289099-Comms-hu ... -pack.html

[servodude]

I live near Bristol. Our mobile signal here is poor but usable but it's not O2 so can't test as suggested. Yes, the steel door was open when the engineer worked on the meter. Is it possible to boost the signal in such situations?

"Boosting" a signal in these circumstances would normally require adding an external antenna

And the meter installers have the option to install such antenna - https://docplayer.net/86289099-Comms-hu ... -pack.html

Indeed, so it boils down to whether they understand or care what they are doing; having to fiddle with antennas in the field is pretty tricky to get right (especially if we're talking higher gain ergo smaller beam width)

If an installer is paid for their time installing a box I am not sure if they care too much whether or not it works

But in any case the first thing to check would be whether there's any indication of received strength or successful communications (which might be present on a display)

-sd

[Bminusrob]

In my previous house, in a moment of madness, I succombed to the pressure, and agreed to have a smart meter installed. The installer turned up, and within 5 minutes said I couldn't have a smart meter because he couldn't get a phone signal. Smart? I think not.

This is a perfect illustration of how the long chain between policy ("universal smart metering" in this case) and policy implementation often gets things wrong.

In the case of universal smart metering, the first and biggest mistake was to put implementation into the hands of the suppliers rather than the distribution network operators (DNOs). That resulted in the SMETS1 debacle whereby smart meters lost their smarts on a change of supplier. That error is still slowly being unwound a decade on but it has resulted in a lot of customer resistance to smart metering so making the policy harder to implement. Subsequent implementation errors (all avoidable in my view) like your own experience and that of the OP - lack of address screening and comms testing prior to installation - just add to that resistance.

Universal smart metering has sensible policy objectives, specifically facilitating time of day tariffs (as is the case now in Spain) which in turn improve infrastructure and system efficiency.

Unfortunately, the implementation screw-ups give smart meters a bad name but I think it important to distinguish between the technology and how it is implemented. The former is smart but the latter, at times, is not.

modellingman

You are right in a lot of what you say. However, time-of-day tariffs are only part of the story. Another part is being able to operate selective power cuts when the grid is overloaded. I think of smart meters a bit like having a direct debit with the bank, but without the direct debit guarantee. It's a bit too one-sided for me.

When it comes to communication and meter readings, who thought up the idea of using the mobile phone network? What a stupid idea, putting all your money on a technology guaranteed to go obsolete. Yes. I know, it was easy to implement, and that's the whole problem. A short cut rather than a well planned solution. Surely a secure system along the lines of powerline adapters could have been implemented without breaking the bank, and then, the electricity companies could have been in charge of it.

[Nocton]

Sorry to hear of your problems, forgotusername.
We have Scottish Power as a supplier. My experience was quite different from yours. I rang them on a Wednesday and the meter was installed on Friday the same week. It worked straight away and I have not had to read the meter since and can see at once how much electricity we are using now, today, this month, etc. It is a marvellous little gadget and would recommend it to everyone.

However, relevant to your problem perhaps, we have the meter positioned in my office - just one wall to the consumer unit in the garage and two to the meters in the box on the garage wall, which I think is what the unit communicates with. When we move it to the kitchen - an extra solid wall - there is no signal. So I suggest that you unplug your meter and move it to as near as you can to the meter box to see if it then works. If it does it is a signal problem due to the barriers between the smart meter and the supplier's meters. Otherwise switch to a supplier like Scottish Power who offer reduced tariffs with a smart meter and as an experienced electricity supplier, unlike Shell, perhaps know better what to do?

[modellingman]

In my previous house, in a moment of madness, I succombed to the pressure, and agreed to have a smart meter installed. The installer turned up, and within 5 minutes said I couldn't have a smart meter because he couldn't get a phone signal. Smart? I think not.

This is a perfect illustration of how the long chain between policy ("universal smart metering" in this case) and policy implementation often gets things wrong.

In the case of universal smart metering, the first and biggest mistake was to put implementation into the hands of the suppliers rather than the distribution network operators (DNOs). That resulted in the SMETS1 debacle whereby smart meters lost their smarts on a change of supplier. That error is still slowly being unwound a decade on but it has resulted in a lot of customer resistance to smart metering so making the policy harder to implement. Subsequent implementation errors (all avoidable in my view) like your own experience and that of the OP - lack of address screening and comms testing prior to installation - just add to that resistance.

Universal smart metering has sensible policy objectives, specifically facilitating time of day tariffs (as is the case now in Spain) which in turn improve infrastructure and system efficiency.

Unfortunately, the implementation screw-ups give smart meters a bad name but I think it important to distinguish between the technology and how it is implemented. The former is smart but the latter, at times, is not.

modellingman

You are right in a lot of what you say. However, time-of-day tariffs are only part of the story. Another part is being able to operate selective power cuts when the grid is overloaded. I think of smart meters a bit like having a direct debit with the bank, but without the direct debit guarantee. It's a bit too one-sided for me.

When it comes to communication and meter readings, who thought up the idea of using the mobile phone network? What a stupid idea, putting all your money on a technology guaranteed to go obsolete. Yes. I know, it was easy to implement, and that's the whole problem. A short cut rather than a well planned solution. Surely a secure system along the lines of powerline adapters could have been implemented without breaking the bank, and then, the electricity companies could have been in charge of it.

I doubt that load shedding was one of the policy objectives of universal smart metering and your concerns are unlikely to become reality for two reasons. First, domestic consumers come at the bottom of the priority list for controlled load shedding. Second, discriminating between smart metered and non-smart metered customers when implementing domestic load shedding would set back hopes of universal smart metering in the UK a generation or more.

A more legitimate concern might be in relation to disconnection because of energy debt but even here, as this article from the Express notes, prepayment will have been imposed long before any remote disconnection functionality is applied.

I agree with your comment on the stupidity of using the mobile network and, as I have noted in another post on this thread, your suggestion of comms over powerlines has been adopted elsewhere (including here in Spain where I live). The UK implementation is another consequence of the stupid decision to put responsibility for the roll-out of smart metering into the hand of the suppliers rather than the DNOs - a decision which, as far as I can tell, is unique to the UK. (It is also, I suspect, a decision driven by the ideology long dominant in OFGEM and government that competition in provision always yields better solutions). It is also a further illustration of how the long chain between policy decisions and policy implementation often gets things wrong.

modellingman

[NotSure]

Sorry to hear of your problems, forgotusername.
We have Scottish Power as a supplier. My experience was quite different from yours. I rang them on a Wednesday and the meter was installed on Friday the same week. It worked straight away and I have not had to read the meter since and can see at once how much electricity we are using now, today, this month, etc. It is a marvellous little gadget and would recommend it to everyone.

However, relevant to your problem perhaps, we have the meter positioned in my office - just one wall to the consumer unit in the garage and two to the meters in the box on the garage wall, which I think is what the unit communicates with. When we move it to the kitchen - an extra solid wall - there is no signal. So I suggest that you unplug your meter and move it to as near as you can to the meter box to see if it then works. If it does it is a signal problem due to the barriers between the smart meter and the supplier's meters. Otherwise switch to a supplier like Scottish Power who offer reduced tariffs with a smart meter and as an experienced electricity supplier, unlike Shell, perhaps know better what to do?

Two different issues here. The real smart meter is the one in your garage and that needs a link to the supplier. The snazzy display, AIUI, just links to your smart meter in the garage, so you cannot take it to work with you and expect to be able to monitor your consumption, but if you did, it would not affect the smart meters themselves. The OP seem to have a link between their display and smart meter, but not between their smart meter and supplier.

I was a long time smart meter sceptic, but really felt I needed to do something when I realised my current electric meter was last calibrated in 1988. Went online a week ago, booked an installation for two days later, and I have to confess I am now glad that I did. Regarding load shedding, while it's possible to be selective, someone has to be cut off if insufficient power and I suspect it would be based on geography rather than meter technology. Just flick a single switch and shut down a neighbourhood. Maybe we'll see this winter? Imagine the headlines!

[pje16]

The only other smart thread I could find had been locked
THIS is the best reason not to have one

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63554879

[swill453]

The only other smart thread I could find had been locked
THIS is the best reason not to have one

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63554879

How does that work? I've only heard of prepayment meters that you top up with a card or a key. My smart meter doesn't have a slot for such a thing.

Scott.

[pje16]

see the article
remotely I assume
"Once a smart meter is installed, it is a much simpler process for a supplier to swap the customer into prepay mode at the push of a button, rather than having to apply for a warrant and install a physical box."