Uncivil servants

[Clitheroekid]

I was astonished to read that up to 40% of civil servants are apparently considering quitting their jobs because - the very horror of it - they've been told that they may be expected to work up to 3 days a week in their office - https://www.civilserviceworld.com/profe ... ce-mandate

I've been on the receiving end of civil servants in WFH (which I've christened "We're on F'ing Holiday") mode. It's been virtually impossible to get any sensible response from the Land Registry, the Probate Registry, the Office of the Public Guardian, HMRC, the Court Service etc, etc ad infinitum since the pandemic. On the odd occasion I have had the privilege of speaking to someone it's not unusual to hear the telly on in the background, or have the conversation interrupted while they answer the doorbell for their latest Amazon delivery.

The sheer sense of entitlement from these people is breathtaking. My suggestion would be that the lazy bu**ers should be told that their gold plated pension rights will only accrue on the days that they turn up for work!

[EverybodyKnows]

It's been virtually impossible to get any sensible response from the Land Registry, the Probate Registry, the Office of the Public Guardian, HMRC, the Court Service etc, etc ad infinitum since the pandemic.

All of whom were of course exceptionally known for their responsiveness pre-covid…

Perhaps you just don’t like WFH?

[Nimrod103]

It's been virtually impossible to get any sensible response from the Land Registry, the Probate Registry, the Office of the Public Guardian, HMRC, the Court Service etc, etc ad infinitum since the pandemic.

All of whom were of course exceptionally known for their responsiveness pre-covid…

Perhaps you just don’t like WFH?

I was going to write much the same. Is it worse than pre-Covid? My brother was dealing with my father's will ten years ago, and kept writing to the (I think) Nottingham Probate Office, for 3 months. He eventually found out it had been shut long before, and his letters had disappeared. Official docomentation and websites had never been updated.

[JohnB]

Perhaps they are unhappy about being treated as a political football by the Tories, reducing numbers without changing workload, or perhaps its just the pay

“While undoubtedly a step in the right direction, [the latest pay rise] does not undo the years of pay restraint that has meant that civil servants’ median salaries at each grade have reduced in real terms by between 12% and 23% since 2010,” the FDA report said.

https://www.globalgovernmentforum.com/t ... vey-finds/

Civil servant bashing is certainly popular on this board, and mention of "gold plated pensions" is obligatory

[DrFfybes]

The sheer sense of entitlement from these people is breathtaking. My suggestion would be that the lazy bu**ers should be told that their gold plated pension rights will only accrue on the days that they turn up for work!

Hey CK, Looty has hacked your account

[Gerry557]

You might find things run much better once they are all out of the office 5 days a week

[Lootman]

The sheer sense of entitlement from these people is breathtaking. My suggestion would be that the lazy bu**ers should be told that their gold plated pension rights will only accrue on the days that they turn up for work!

Hey CK, Looty has hacked your account

Nope, that was the real CK, although it will not shock you to know that I agree 100% with him.

[scrumpyjack]

Yes the servant problem has got a lot worse

[Clitheroekid]

Civil servant bashing is certainly popular on this board, and mention of "gold plated pensions" is obligatory

Fair point, it is rather a cliché, perhaps ‘platinum plated’ would be more appropriate!

[scotia]

Civil servant bashing is certainly popular on this board, and mention of "gold plated pensions" is obligatory

Fair point, it is rather a cliché, perhaps ‘platinum plated’ would be more appropriate!

An old senior civil servant (now deceased) told me that in the late 40s, the average life span on the civil service pension was about two years, so it really was not a gold or platinum promise.
Times change - and we now live longer, so it does appear to be a good scheme, but for a long time it was no better than many other defined benefit schemes, albeit that employee contributions were zero - but a prospective employee would take that into account in the wage offered. Since 2012, a civil service employee has paid a contribution, which has increased over the years.
During my working years, inflation and interest rates were substantial, and defined benefit schemes were easily funded with reasonable contributions - indeed for a period some schemes were able to reduce their contributions, and still meet the defined benefits. But when inflation was substantially reduced, along with interest rates, for a substantial number of years, then the cost of forward-guaranteed pensions with the return from guaranteed interest bond-like investments became prohibitive, and many schemes were downgraded to defined contribution schemes. Civil Service pensions remain (as far as I am aware) as defined benefit schemes, and the employer contribution is generous - although I'm not au fait with the changes under the new alpha scheme. But now interest rates have once again shot up, and may continue to remain so . I see that the strike action over pensions in the academic world has been resolved - with the new economic conditions making their contributions more acceptable.
Where now with pensions? It is now obvious that there are drawbacks in low inflation, low interest conditions.
PS I have never been a civil servant, although I have for a substantial number of years been in receipt of a (private scheme) Defined Benefit, inflation linked pension, to which I contributed.

[Clitheroekid]

Public sector pensions increased by 10.1% in April this year. However, I can't find any figures for average increases in private sector (non-defined benefit) pensions for 2023, so does anyone know where I can find such figures, or how they compare?

[tjh290633]

Public sector pensions increased by 10.1% in April this year. However, I can't find any figures for average increases in private sector (non-defined benefit) pensions for 2023, so does anyone know where I can find such figures, or how they compare?

I think that the picture is complicated. My pension increases by 3% per year, but different rules apply to the GMP (Guaranteed Minimum Pension) portion. I need to look up my spreadsheet to find out what happened last January, when the annual increase kicks in. It is, of course, defined benefit.

I also have an annuity, which increases by the RPI or 5%, whichever is the lesser. When the RPI fell, it stayed level, and indexation resumed when the RPI rose again, but when it rose above 5%, the shortfall was not given back when the RPI fell below 5%.

If you have a SIPP the matter is in your own hands.

TJH

[mc2fool]

Public sector pensions increased by 10.1% in April this year. However, I can't find any figures for average increases in private sector (non-defined benefit) pensions for 2023, so does anyone know where I can find such figures, or how they compare?

For non-defined benefit pensions it's entirely up to the individual. For defined contribution pensions the pensioner decides on how much to draw each year, and for annuities they effectively made the choice about annual increases when they took out the annuity.

[Nimrod103]

Public sector pensions increased by 10.1% in April this year. However, I can't find any figures for average increases in private sector (non-defined benefit) pensions for 2023, so does anyone know where I can find such figures, or how they compare?

For non-defined benefit pensions it's entirely up to the individual. For defined contribution pensions the pensioner decides on how much to draw each year, and for annuities they effectively made the choice about annual increases when they took out the annuity.

The important point is that civil service and public sector pension are all fully inflation linked whereas AFAIAA no private sector pension (DB or DC) is. The latter are usually capped at 3-5%, and have therefore lost considerable value during the latest phase of government inspired currency debasement.

[Rhyd6]

Not too sure I should dip my toe into this muddy water but here we go. As a retired civil servant (HMRC) I have to agree that the service offered is appalling, especially HMRC. My grandaughters partner works for HMRC so I have both views. I was told on my first day at work that we were public servants, that the people we dealt with had, through their taxes, paid our wages and that on every occasion we had cause to deal with them we should treat them with the same courtesy we would expect for ourselves. This I always endeavoured to do, not always easy especially when someone is threatening to knock your block off.
Today, so I've been told, at HMRC people have about a months training and are then put on telephone duties so it's no wonder that when you phone up seeking advice they don't even know what you're talking about, Staff in most branches of the civil service are offered short term contracts so turnover is a big problem. When I was in HMRC we had a help desk, people could walk in and someone would deal face to face with their problem, this service was cut long ago and when we said it would cause problems we were informed we didn't know what we were talking about.
I help out at a community cafe once a week and as I still act as an agent for several small businesses people know I deal with taxes, I'm always inundated with pleas for help which I'm only too happy to give because people have spent forever trying to get through on the phone and have just given up.
I agree with CK sacking the beggars who won't go back to work but I'd also suggest that some government ministers would benefit from a face to face meeting with the poor sods who have to face angry and frustrated people without the decent training I and most older civil servants received.

R6

[mc2fool]

For non-defined benefit pensions it's entirely up to the individual. For defined contribution pensions the pensioner decides on how much to draw each year, and for annuities they effectively made the choice about annual increases when they took out the annuity.

The important point is that civil service and public sector pension are all fully inflation linked whereas AFAIAA no private sector pension (DB or DC) is. The latter are usually capped at 3-5%, and have therefore lost considerable value during the latest phase of government inspired currency debasement.

DC pensions payouts aren't linked to anything, and potentially could increase more than inflation if the pensioner wanted, and sustainably so if the pot was suitably invested. For DB pensions it's complicated. A 100% GMP pre 2016 DB pensioner will get the full inflation uplift, paid in part by the scheme and in part by the govt. Other cases are, well, complicated.

Of course, pensions are only part of the story.

"Compared to 2010, civil servants’ median salaries at each grade have reduced in real terms between 12% at the most junior levels and 23% at the most senior. This particularly worsened in 2022 due to high rates of inflation."
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/civil-service-pay

[scotia]

Public sector pensions increased by 10.1% in April this year. However, I can't find any figures for average increases in private sector (non-defined benefit) pensions for 2023, so does anyone know where I can find such figures, or how they compare?

I can't help with non-defined pension schemes, however both myself and wife are in a (large) private defined benefit scheme which closely follows the public service defined benefit schemes - so we got the 10.1% increase. When the public service pensions were down graded from RPI increases to CPI increases, our scheme followed suit.
Way back to the 1970s, my father retired with a modest NCB pension, and on privatisation (1987) the government guaranteed the already defined pensions, no matter what happened to the scheme funds. This allowed the scheme managers the freedom to invest for growth, and they did much better than required. The government claimed that this was due to their guarantee, and they deserved a share of the increased pot, and agreement was reached on a 50:50 split. So my father did rather well, as also did UK tax payers.

[Nimrod103]

The important point is that civil service and public sector pension are all fully inflation linked whereas AFAIAA no private sector pension (DB or DC) is. The latter are usually capped at 3-5%, and have therefore lost considerable value during the latest phase of government inspired currency debasement.

DC pensions payouts aren't linked to anything, and potentially could increase more than inflation if the pensioner wanted, and sustainably so if the pot was suitably invested.

Well I'd be much obliged if you point me in the direction of a risk free investment guaranteed to increase fully at the rate of inflation, after tax.

For DB pensions it's complicated. A 100% GMP pre 2016 DB pensioner will get the full inflation uplift, paid in part by the scheme and in part by the govt. Other cases are, well, complicated.

It is one of the tragedies of UK pensions that DB pensions are complex, beset with rules which are frequently changed. Of course they have almost entirely died out in the private sector, which tells you all you need to know about their long term affordability.

Of course, pensions are only part of the story.

"Compared to 2010, civil servants’ median salaries at each grade have reduced in real terms between 12% at the most junior levels and 23% at the most senior. This particularly worsened in 2022 due to high rates of inflation."
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/civil-service-pay

Since pensions are so poorly understood, especially among the young and middle aged, it is inevitable that the high value of public sector pensions are not being fully appreciated by the workforce.Whether public sector employees have fallen behind is a debateable point, and any discussion should be supported with data on comparable jobs in the public vs private sector, withall emoluments, terms and conditions and risk of redundancy, and re-employability taken into account.

[mc2fool]

DC pensions payouts aren't linked to anything, and potentially could increase more than inflation if the pensioner wanted, and sustainably so if the pot was suitably invested.

Well I'd be much obliged if you point me in the direction of a risk free investment guaranteed to increase fully at the rate of inflation, after tax.

Well arguably low coupon index linked gilts held to maturity.

[the0ni0nking]

Since 2012, a civil service employee has paid a contribution, which has increased over the years.

As someone who worked in the Civil Service for 3 years between 2002-2005, I paid a contribution to the pension I have in respect of those years.

The contribution might have been small but it would be misleading to say the employees didn't contribute anything - assuming I have interpreted your point correctly.

I think contributions in central govt (Civil Service) schemes were maybe 1.5% whereas local govt schemes were more like 3.5% at the time. Small fry in the overall scheme of things but still an employee contribution.