Fire movement, is it on way out?

[Adamski]

I'm thinking it is still realistic for those on high incomes and low outgoings, as there will always going to be some in very high paying jobs who can afford to retire early.

But the environment is very difficult now. And different now. We've had 2+ years of a global pandemic, a war in Europe, high and growing inflation, stockmarket volatility and a correction in growth stocks.

I think some of the fire movement bloggers, which I follow, some are partly successful because of the favourable circumstances of 2009-20.

From 2008 financial crash, you had a 10 year bull market. Which has made many investors richer over that period.

A set of circumstances which don't exist now. Growth wasn't going vto continue unchecked and now had a bumpy year would cause need to reassess feasibility and viability.

Fire is a flexible movement, interpreted differently but different groups. So going forward thinking the movement will have to be flexible in its thinking and adjust expectations accordingly. Do think its a good thing to set financial goals and a savings plan but also think there's a need to live today without extreme frugality.

Thinking part of the attraction of fire is if you either don't like your job or face burnout. The answer might be simply to find another job, or one with better work life balance. My guess is the fire movement has a future, but is for most going to be tradeoffs so ultimately will mean having to save more over a longer period, to reach the same goal and maintain lifestyle, as savings rates and market returns could be lower than the past.

[hiriskpaul]

Statistically I would expect to see more early retirees following a period with a favourable sequence of returns than an unfavourable one.

Many people are likely to target a figure such as having 25, 30 or 35 years worth of income saved and then retire when they get there. This does not make a lot of sense because the figure to aim for should rationally be contingent on some measure of market valuation, such as CAPE10. For the same level of risk, a higher SWR can be taken with a low CAPE than with a high CAPE.

If your target is 30 years, but there is a market crash the day before you hand in your notice and your investments drop by 20%, then you should still be ok even though you only have 24 years of investments. A lot of people will not think this way though.

[DrFfybes]

No, it is not on it's way out, and it never will be.

Personally I don't see it as a 'movement', it is nothing new.

My dad was self employed. Once I'd exited uni he sold up and packed in aged 58 (I think). OK, so he worked 2 or 3 weeks a year to cover hols, and was on a retainer from the new owner up until HE retired nearly 30 years later (yup!), but erarly retirement has always been around, and will always be an aspiration for many.

Paul

[Darka]

My wife and I retired October last year and even with all the current turmoil, uncertainty and inflation risks I would not change a thing.

I had worked all my life from before school leaving age, through University and then full time after that until my 52'nd birthday, when I retired with no periods of unemployment.

Being bored and close to being burnt out (tedious job with some complete ***hole colleagues) meant that I just didn't want to work anymore; our retirement was the culmination of about 10 years of planning/saving/investing hard with some very specific 'minimum' goals.

The FIRE movement heavily influenced my planning of course, although most FIRE bloggers are not of course retired as they make money from their websites, blogs, affiliations, etc, in effect they are still working no matter what they like to think.

The freedom and sense of calm I feel these days is remarkable, we've even joined a gym which I never thought we'd do and actually enjoy that a lot.

I don't worry about our finances as I planned pretty well and things are going ok, can't be guaranteed of course but the only way to be risk free is to never retire and who would want that?

I know retiring at 52 isn't massively early, but it'll do and I couldn't be happier with that decision

[DrFfybes]

The FIRE movement heavily influenced my planning of course, although most FIRE bloggers are not of course retired as they make money from their websites, blogs, affiliations, etc, in effect they are still working no matter what they like to think.
[...]
I know retiring at 52 isn't massively early, but it'll do and I couldn't be happier with that decision

Oh, so there is a movement? - I stand corrected. TBH I really wasn't aware.

We made no real effort, we were both just brought up to have the common sense to spend less than we earnt, and suddenly found ourselves in a situation where we spent a lot less, and it kind of snowballed from there. MrsF always had a bit of a vague target, but only when I got so fed up with work that I decided to work out exactly what we did spend, and realised we had nearly 25x annual spend in savings, and MrsF's DB pension shceme would cover 40%+ of our spend even if they were taken early so were on a multiple of over 40x.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that people can still make a living statng the Bleeping obvious, but it wasn't even a new idea when Dickens wrote about it.

52 is still pretty early. Say you expect(ed) to work from 21 to 65 so 44 years, knocking nearly a third off your working life and adding almost 50% to your retirement is pretty good going. After 4 years I can barely remember what it felt like going into work, I really can't imagine having had to do it for another 11 years.

Paul.

[Itsallaguess]

I'm thinking it is still realistic for those on high incomes and low outgoings, as there will always going to be some in very high paying jobs who can afford to retire early.

But the environment is very difficult now. And different now. We've had 2+ years of a global pandemic, a war in Europe, high and growing inflation, stockmarket volatility and a correction in growth stocks.

As someone who's always had some level of FIRE related goals, supplemented with there perhaps being a possibility of a more balanced work-life period somewhere along the way, most probably related to going part-time initially, I think that whilst 'external conditions' will clearly play a large part regarding achievable-timescales, I very strongly believe that a much more prominent driver is simply the mind-set of the individual.

Given the simply huge number of long-term external variables that many people hoping to achieve FIRE will have to cope with and live through on their journey towards that goal, then it's clear to me that people who set strong enough long-term goals, and are able to work towards them through the really quite normal thick-and-thin that life will present to us on the way, will still get there in the end...

There's always something to worry about - the secret is to keep focussed on the important stuff...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Darka]

Oh, so there is a movement? - I stand corrected. TBH I really wasn't aware.

I think the FIRE movement like to think they invented early retirement...

52 is still pretty early. Say you expect(ed) to work from 21 to 65 so 44 years, knocking nearly a third off your working life and adding almost 50% to your retirement is pretty good going. After 4 years I can barely remember what it felt like going into work, I really can't imagine having had to do it for another 11 years.
Paul.

Thanks, it's been nearly 6 months and although I can just about remember the office, it's fading fast thankfully.

[Dod101]

Oh, so there is a movement? - I stand corrected. TBH I really wasn't aware.

I think the FIRE movement like to think they invented early retirement...

52 is still pretty early. Say you expect(ed) to work from 21 to 65 so 44 years, knocking nearly a third off your working life and adding almost 50% to your retirement is pretty good going. After 4 years I can barely remember what it felt like going into work, I really can't imagine having had to do it for another 11 years.
Paul.

Thanks, it's been nearly 6 months and although I can just about remember the office, it's fading fast thankfully.

I was given early retirement at the age of 53 and have not worked since. I was well looked after but intended to get a consultancy type job in the Far East. I was in fact offered a couple but had to turn them down (one would not have worked anyway) because my late wife's health was deteriorating and we felt that she would not have been able to cope. I enjoyed working and would happily have done maybe a three year consultancy, not for the money particularly but because I like the Far East and I was to be paid for being there! Lovely.

Dod

[Hariseldon58]

When I was thinking about retiring early ( @49 in 2007) the buzz word in the press was “Downshifting” same idea, articles in the papers along the same idea as FIRE, books like “Your Money or Your Life” by Joe Dominguez & Vicki Robin, originally published in 1992,( the author retired at 31 and died in his 50’s in 1997) The subtext of the book was , “Transforming Your Relationship with Money and Achieving Financial Independence”. The book was updated a few years ago with the help of Mr Money Moustache.

Not a new idea, people get fed up of working in an unpleasant environment and realise money is not everything.

[tjh290633]

What it all boils down to is how much money you can put away during your working life. If and when you have enough to give you an adequate income, then you can afford to say farewell to your employer and do what you want to. You do not have to, of course, and it helps if your father leaves you the odd million or so.

How much you can put away depends on your lifestyle and how much you get paid. Some will spend it all, rather than save it.

There are no hard and fast rules.

TJH

[swill453]

Despite being on TMF since the 90s and then TLF, I wasn't really aware of any FIRE "movement".

I was working in order to retire, and the various saving and investing tips I picked up on the way here and elsewhere allowed me to do so at age 53, 8 years ago.

Scott.

[BullDog]

Oh, so there is a movement? - I stand corrected. TBH I really wasn't aware.

I think the FIRE movement like to think they invented early retirement...

52 is still pretty early. Say you expect(ed) to work from 21 to 65 so 44 years, knocking nearly a third off your working life and adding almost 50% to your retirement is pretty good going. After 4 years I can barely remember what it felt like going into work, I really can't imagine having had to do it for another 11 years.
Paul.

Thanks, it's been nearly 6 months and although I can just about remember the office, it's fading fast thankfully.

I was given early retirement at the age of 53 and have not worked since. I was well looked after but intended to get a consultancy type job in the Far East. I was in fact offered a couple but had to turn them down (one would not have worked anyway) because my late wife's health was deteriorating and we felt that she would not have been able to cope. I enjoyed working and would happily have done maybe a three year consultancy, not for the money particularly but because I like the Far East and I was to be paid for being there! Lovely.

Dod

I did 2 years in Seoul. Two of the best years of my life, thoroughly enjoyed it. Effectively, a paid vacation with a couple of hours work to do now and again. Loved it!

[SalvorHardin]

I would think that the last couple of years would have encouraged towards FIRE.

The lockdown, work from home and subsequent reopening of many workplaces will have highlighted the misery of the commute for many who used to tolerate it without to much grumbling pre-lockdown.

FIRE is likely to be a bit harder for many who were considering it, if they only look at the income side of the equation. But lockdown will have shown many how to cut their costs, to discard some pricy habits and just how expensive it can be simply to be in work.

[UrbanAchiever]

I'd always wanted to retire early but lockdown brought this into sharp focus. My work went completely mental during lockdown (providing CBILS loans to businesses). I was working 12+ hour days for months on end and often worked weekends. I know I was on the edge of burnout. And as a result I fell out of love with my job. And whilst things are returning to normal I haven't got my mojo back.

My original plan pre-covid was to retire at 57 when I can access my pension. This moved to 55 a few months ago. But has recently moved again to 53! 5 years to go....

[uspaul666]

Although it often sounds like it’s all about getting to £1M and never working again, personally I think it’s a bit more subtle than that.
It’s also about avoiding debt, not borrowing to buy the latest fastest car for example. It’s about perhaps changing jobs to one you might be able to enjoy forever, it’s about flexible working like working for three months and travelling for 9 months. It’s about bartering like I’ll help build your garage if you do my accounts. For me it’s about not blindly following the script that seems to be your default life.

I first knew there was something “wrong” with me when I was a party where all the men clustered in a certain area and talked endlessly about the latest BMW. That was about the year 2000. I was also reading “rich dad, poor dad” at the time which suggests, amongst other things, that you should buy a big house and the cheapest car, I also discovered the early retirement extreme web site and also found out I was paying huge fees to a financial adviser for almost no advice. All of these things influenced me to “take control” and pursue FI and RE.
So No, I think (my version of) FIRE is alive and kicking.

[Darka]

One thing I've found very difficult since retiring is being able to tell anyone!

I've just got back from the pub after a drink with my wife and a good friend of ours (they are off to see "The Mission" later tonight together, not my kind of music) and I didn't know how to mention I was retired now, since the last time I saw him a few months ago after running with him on his 200th marathon.

After he and my wife came back from the bar, he said that he didn't know I was also retired (she must have mentioned it at the bar), for some reason I felt quite guilty and felt I had to justify myself, which of course wasn't needed.

I don't fully understand why I find it so difficult to talk about and feel guilty about it, but I suspect it will get easier.
The last thing I want to do is come across as bragging or showing off, so that's probably another reason why.

To all those still working towards FIRE, early retirement or whatever you want to call it, keep going, it's worth it.

[SalvorHardin]

One thing I've found very difficult since retiring is being able to tell anyone!...

...I don't fully understand why I find it so difficult to talk about and feel guilty about it, but I suspect it will get easier.
The last thing I want to do is come across as bragging or showing off, so that's probably another reason why.

To all those still working towards FIRE, early retirement or whatever you want to call it, keep going, it's worth it.

The TLF thread linked below, "Sunday Afternoon Musings: not telling anybody", which dates back to 2017, looks at the difficulties in telling people that you have taken early retirement. It has some good ideas.

When I retired at 39 (in 2003), I didn't want to run the risk of stirring up envy amongst my friends and neighbours. So I told no-one except immediate family and acted as if I was still working on an erratic self-employed schedule.

Fortunately I had worked from home in the past. Also being an Actuary meant that most people had no more interest in what I was doing.

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3214

[Darka]

The TLF thread linked below, "Sunday Afternoon Musings: not telling anybody", which dates back to 2017, looks at the difficulties in telling people that you have taken early retirement. It has some good ideas.

When I retired at 39 (in 2003), I didn't want to run the risk of stirring up envy amongst my friends and neighbours. So I told no-one except immediate family and acted as if I was still working on an erratic self-employed schedule.

Fortunately I had worked from home in the past. Also being an Actuary meant that most people had no more interest in what I was doing.

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3214

Thank you, I shall have a read of that now as it is harder that I would have thought to tell anyone.

[DrFfybes]

I've just got back from the pub after a drink with my wife and a good friend of ours (they are off to see "The Mission" later tonight together, not my kind of music)

Philistine.
I have been out of touch with gigs, I'm now £80 poorer and we're off to Manchester on Thursday.

See, when you're retired, you can do impulsive things like that

Paul

[Darka]

Philistine.
I have been out of touch with gigs, I'm now £80 poorer and we're off to Manchester on Thursday.

See, when you're retired, you can do impulsive things like that

Paul

Have a great time

Been a long time since I went to a gig to, but maybe find something more to my taste later this year.