Fire movement, is it on way out?

[Snakey]

I decided at 27, just after my marriage fell apart, that my aim was going to be to give up work at 50. (I managed it last summer age 49. Yay me.) I wasn't part of a "movement" and didn't think of it as a special thing that needed a name, because at the time you could retire at 50 and people still did. Plus at 27 I couldn't distinguish between 50 and 60/65 tbh - it was all "old".

I was a lot more bothered about the possibility of inflation, market crashes etc in the months leading up to handing in my notice than I am now that it's potentially actually happening. The hard bit was making up my mind, and that period of time when I'd made the decision but hadn't yet done the deed - I spent a lot of time looking for signs that things had changed or agonising over whether they might.

There's apparently a theory that once you make a decision and commit to it, it takes its place in the narrative of your life and you (most people) move forward from there rather than looking back. I've certainly found that - not one sniff of regret. Although actually, there haven't been any negatives so far. There's been a couple of occasions where I wished I had a printer, and I was a bit disappointed at Christmas to realise that of course I wouldn't be getting my usual voucher, but that's honestly it. Market bumps? Don't care. Inflation? Don't care at the moment (maybe ask me in five years' time if it's been double figures throughout!).

So my view would be that the people currently standing on the high-diving board might be dithering, but you won't find (m)any people who have already jumped who regret it, nor will you find people who are 2-3 years away changing their mind about sticking with the plan. In short, it's just noise. Only if your plan was based on extreme frugality post-retirement as well as pre (which, as I understand it, is a tiny subset of FIRE) might you tear it up altogether - inflation is a real disaster if you've no fat to trim.

On the subject of Not Telling Anyone (if we're doing it in this thread), I did end up giving my family and friends a version of the truth. That's because it turned out that, despite anything I may have said on the subject in the past, I couldn't bring myself to tell a pack of outright lies.

With friends I've been completely straight, albeit not giving details about my finances and not hammering the "I never have to work again" point too hard or too specifically. The pandemic has made it more acceptable to be taking a break. Everyone's been happy for me, or at least if they have secretly wished me dead they've kept it to themselves very well. They all have lives that they like far better than mine anyway (for the most part: marriage and kids instead of pensions and investments), and they all have professional careers so I was fairly sure that they wouldn't be tapping me for money or expecting me to pay.

I was expecting family to be the tricky category, since there's a larger spread of fortunes - if anyone was going to have a problem, or try to take advantage of my perceived "spare" time or money it would be people in this category. I found that even people who don't really care do eventually ask "so, how's work?" and it does put you in a position where you have to decide whether to lie outright.

What made it easy was that I ended up with a small amount of what you might call consultancy work. So I say I left my job to go and do that, explaining that "consultancy" means fewer hours but a higher hourly rate and letting them assume it's more regular/substantial than it is, although I've also mentioned peaks and troughs as a pre-emptive strike in case I ever need to say "no" to anything without giving offence.

It's mainly non-family acquaintances (ex-colleagues) who make things difficult, grilling me shamelessly over exactly what work I'm doing, who I'm working with and how much I'm bringing in. The impression I get is that any caginess leads them to scent "gossip" i.e. maybe I was asked to leave, maybe I can't find another job, maybe I am now on the dole. The hope I think I see in their eyes at the very thought of this stops me feeling uncomfortable about leading them up the garden path.

I used to like the Mission, although I haven't been to a gig since the 90s unless you count stadium bands via corporate entertainment (another thing I won't be experiencing again!).

[SalvorHardin]

On the subject of Not Telling Anyone (if we're doing it in this thread), I did end up giving my family and friends a version of the truth. That's because it turned out that, despite anything I may have said on the subject in the past, I couldn't bring myself to tell a pack of outright lies.

With friends I've been completely straight, albeit not giving details about my finances and not hammering the "I never have to work again" point too hard or too specifically. The pandemic has made it more acceptable to be taking a break. Everyone's been happy for me, or at least if they have secretly wished me dead they've kept it to themselves very well. They all have lives that they like far better than mine anyway (for the most part: marriage and kids instead of pensions and investments), and they all have professional careers so I was fairly sure that they wouldn't be tapping me for money or expecting me to pay.

I was expecting family to be the tricky category, since there's a larger spread of fortunes - if anyone was going to have a problem, or try to take advantage of my perceived "spare" time or money it would be people in this category. I found that even people who don't really care do eventually ask "so, how's work?" and it does put you in a position where you have to decide whether to lie outright.

What made it easy was that I ended up with a small amount of what you might call consultancy work. So I say I left my job to go and do that, explaining that "consultancy" means fewer hours but a higher hourly rate and letting them assume it's more regular/substantial than it is, although I've also mentioned peaks and troughs as a pre-emptive strike in case I ever need to say "no" to anything without giving offence.

It's mainly non-family acquaintances (ex-colleagues) who make things difficult, grilling me shamelessly over exactly what work I'm doing, who I'm working with and how much I'm bringing in. The impression I get is that any caginess leads them to scent "gossip" i.e. maybe I was asked to leave, maybe I can't find another job, maybe I am now on the dole. The hope I think I see in their eyes at the very thought of this stops me feeling uncomfortable about leading them up the garden path.

As someone who has been where you are regarding friends, colleagues and family, here's what I did.

Close family was easy, especially because that is my parents (I'm single, no kids, no siblings, not divorced and can live spectacularly cheaply if I need to).

Colleagues weren't a problem because I worked in London and lived in Somerset. No social interaction outside work and the pub after work.

Friends locally. I faked a job / self-employment. It was easy for me as I used to work at home a lot and being an Actuary I had a job which usually caused people to glaze over and want to talk about anything else!

My suggestion, fake self employment for a fake client(s) who demands total confidentiality (and pays a premium for it) and who lets you work mostly from home.

Also fake being worse off for a bit. Shopping at Lidl/Aldi makes a lot of people think you're badly off! The quality of goods there is far better than the supermarket snobs believe.

After a few months the questioning should fade. Don't flaunt flashy purchases.

My Aunt, who is a professional actress of some note (she has a pretty good resume on IMDB but naming names here is a no-no), was very impressed when I came clean about how I used my fake job to hide my retirement. She correctly suspected that I had been "resting" for many years, she loved my cover story and she improved on it, with a decent bit of coaching.

I am helped that I look and dress like a genial giant farm labourer (I love my Barbour/Shooting Coat) who rides an ancient BMW motorbike and who the townies think is a bit like Benny from Crossroads! My Aunt said that I'm destined to be cast in Midsomer Murders as the farmland who's a bit slow but has a vital clue...

[Gan020]

The challenge for FIRE is whether you retire with a big enough pot.

I suspect most people who have FIRE'd fit into one of two categories. Broadly
1. Some with a pot big enough they can withstand a 30% drop in their portfolio and/or significant inflation for some time
2. Some where their pot is big enough if the markets continue on up for the next x years and can get returns of say 5% but their pot is not big enough if the markets remain flat for say 10 years and inflation eats away at their pot too.

I worry we might find a few too many people in category 2 but hopefully with employment high it won't matter as they can top up any shortfall.


I FIRE'd 5 years ago (although I'd never heard the term then) at the age of 50. I still do not know how to deal with the "what do you do?" question. Generally I tell them I make my living from the stock market, because that's what I did for many years. I don't like this answer though. I would prefer to tell people I'm retired. I tried that a few times and people seem uncomfortable with the answer.

The bottom line is we spent less than our income, bought a house significantly smaller than the maximum we were allowed to borrow, paid off our mortage by the time we were 30 and once you stop paying thousands in mortgage interest a year your options open up fast.

[UrbanAchiever]

I find it really interesting that people are reluctant to admit they have retired early.

I just don't think I'll be concerned about it. Mostly because I have been sensible with money all my life and will reap the benefits when I retire early. I know many people who haven't been sensible and therefore won't be able to. It's all about the choices people make.

There's a guy in my team who earns a lot less than I do. When he and his wife had their first child last year, I mentioned to him about putting £2,880 +£720 free top-up from HMRC into a Junior SIPP. The compounding effect from age 0 to 65 will be impressive. He said he'd love to be cannot afford to do it because his wife is still off work on maternity leave and they are tight for cash. 2 months later he proudly shows us all the £8k watch he just treated himself to for his birthday!! I wear a £10 Casio.

There are so many other examples I can give, like my brother in law who admitted he had the bailiffs knocking on his door a year ago, yet has just taken his family on a ski trip! And guess what, he has no pension at age 48. Yet between him and his wife, they earn more than me (and therefore take-home pay is better with 2 personal allowances etc).

I'm not going to feel guilty or hide early retirement from others. Some wear watches to "show off", I will wear my "retirement badge" with pride.

Of course there are some people I know who haven't had the breaks I've had, work hard, save hard and still cannot afford to retire early. With those people I will be much more sensitive (as I am now with them), but I still won't feel the need to hide it.

[BullDog]

I find it really interesting that people are reluctant to admit they have retired early.

I just don't think I'll be concerned about it. Mostly because I have been sensible with money all my life and will reap the benefits when I retire early. I know many people who haven't been sensible and therefore won't be able to. It's all about the choices people make.

There's a guy in my team who earns a lot less than I do. When he and his wife had their first child last year, I mentioned to him about putting £2,880 +£720 free top-up from HMRC into a Junior SIPP. The compounding effect from age 0 to 65 will be impressive. He said he'd love to be cannot afford to do it because his wife is still off work on maternity leave and they are tight for cash. 2 months later he proudly shows us all the £8k watch he just treated himself to for his birthday!! I wear a £10 Casio.

There are so many other examples I can give, like my brother in law who admitted he had the bailiffs knocking on his door a year ago, yet has just taken his family on a ski trip! And guess what, he has no pension at age 48. Yet between him and his wife, they earn more than me (and therefore take-home pay is better with 2 personal allowances etc).

I'm not going to feel guilty or hide early retirement from others. Some wear watches to "show off", I will wear my "retirement badge" with pride.

Of course there are some people I know who haven't had the breaks I've had, work hard, save hard and still cannot afford to retire early. With those people I will be much more sensitive (as I am now with them), but I still won't feel the need to hide it.

Very well said. Who gives a stuff what other people think? Good luck to you and well done.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

I find it really interesting that people are reluctant to admit they have retired early.

I just don't think I'll be concerned about it. Mostly because I have been sensible with money all my life and will reap the benefits when I retire early. I know many people who haven't been sensible and therefore won't be able to. It's all about the choices people make.

There's a guy in my team who earns a lot less than I do. When he and his wife had their first child last year, I mentioned to him about putting £2,880 +£720 free top-up from HMRC into a Junior SIPP. The compounding effect from age 0 to 65 will be impressive. He said he'd love to be cannot afford to do it because his wife is still off work on maternity leave and they are tight for cash. 2 months later he proudly shows us all the £8k watch he just treated himself to for his birthday!! I wear a £10 Casio.

Oh no! ... definitely not ... this badge is mine I don't have a watch

There are so many other examples I can give, like my brother in law who admitted he had the bailiffs knocking on his door a year ago, yet has just taken his family on a ski trip! And guess what, he has no pension at age 48. Yet between him and his wife, they earn more than me (and therefore take-home pay is better with 2 personal allowances etc).

This is spooky. I was talking to my 14 year old daughter yesterday about this. How people make themselves poor by spending more than they earn. Our joint income is very reasonable. We don't have expensive cars. They are both paid for and will not be replaced until they are worn out. We are able to add the full allowance each year to our daughters JISA and we have a nice home, albeit there's some work to do yet. I'm taking a month off currently. We have over 30 months money in the bank so it's not a big issue.

I'm not going to feel guilty or hide early retirement from others. Some wear watches to "show off", I will wear my "retirement badge" with pride.

You deserve it. If I can carry your golf clubs for a day please let me know. My bad

Of course there are some people I know who haven't had the breaks I've had, work hard, save hard and still cannot afford to retire early. With those people I will be much more sensitive (as I am now with them), but I still won't feel the need to hide it.

Yup. Still got that t-shirt on. Forty years of health issues and a pension that reflects an inconsistent income because of that. **it happens. But I am fighting back and will eventually retire. Not just yet though.

No need to hide your retirement from me by the way. You've done a great job.

AiY(D)

[JohnB]

When I retired at 48 I was confident (lots of spreadsheets) that if I went financially underwater so would most of Britain. I happily told everyone "I realised I hated jobs and had enough money, so retired", and no-one remarked on it at all, either with envy or annoyance. Early retirement is common among my friends, the groups where the majority are still slaving away do like fripperies.

Returning to the OP, FIRE will remain popular if the headwinds allow. I'm sure working from home and lockdown has introduced the delights of home, nature and Netflix, environmentalism allows you to avoid bling competition, so there are plenty of opportunities for frugal FIRE.

[DrFfybes]

There's a guy in my team who earns a lot less than I do.[...] 2 months later he proudly shows us all the £8k watch he just treated himself to for his birthday!! I wear a £10 Casio.

There are so many other examples I can give, like my brother in law who admitted he had the bailiffs knocking on his door a year ago, yet has just taken his family on a ski trip!

Yes, but us early quitters need those people. Those 'on-trend' overspenders addicted to the latest gadgets are the ones driving the economy, spending the money, creating the profits that create the returns for us to enjoy. The 'HENRYs' and the Fur Coat and no knickers brigade got us to where we are today. Some might view that as parasitic, I call it Symbiosis

I used to wear a £10 Casio, as did my dad, but I got fed up with the straps breaking so treated myself to a Longines. I'd seen one when I was 40, but couldn't bring myself to spend the £600 or so they were at the time, so kept an eye on Ebay for over a year until I found the one I wanted. Like new, boxed and everything, and 1/3 the new price.

I went part time in 2016/17 IIRC and finally finished in 2018, partially due to team restructuring at work creating unrest, but mainly because I hated it and MrsF's salary covered our spend. Family were pleased, except mum who worried we'd starve and couldn't get her head around the woman working to support the man, despite her earning more than I did. We seemed to live in a road of professional early retirees, so no surprises from any neighbours. Now when people ask what I do I'm upfront about being retired, but if their expression changes I blur it slightly and say something along the lines of "I left work in a restructure and then Covid came along and by the time it had finished we realised we could manage one one salary."

Paul

[Gan020]

I find it really interesting that people are reluctant to admit they have retired early.

I just don't think I'll be concerned about it. Mostly because I have been sensible with money all my life and will reap the benefits when I retire early. I know many people who haven't been sensible and therefore won't be able to. It's all about the choices people make.

The challenge is around friends and their perception of the gap in your relative circumstances. You won't be working, you will have time on your hands induldging in hobbies and interest. Probabaly having a number of holidays. They may well be still working very hard with retirement over a decade away.

It may be painful for them to spent time with you and some of your friendships will drift apart.

Also, they may be wanting to talk about the exciting Board presentation they've got coming up, but you will want to talk about the fantastic crop of carrots you got this year and how much nicer they taste than shop bought carrots.

Some of your friends will be fine with you circumstance but very many will not because you will remind them of their poor choices in life.

[BullDog]

I find it really interesting that people are reluctant to admit they have retired early.

I just don't think I'll be concerned about it. Mostly because I have been sensible with money all my life and will reap the benefits when I retire early. I know many people who haven't been sensible and therefore won't be able to. It's all about the choices people make.

The challenge is around friends and their perception of the gap in your relative circumstances. You won't be working, you will have time on your hands induldging in hobbies and interest. Probabaly having a number of holidays. They may well be still working very hard with retirement over a decade away.

It may be painful for them to spent time with you and some of your friendships will drift apart.

Also, they may be wanting to talk about the exciting Board presentation they've got coming up, but you will want to talk about the fantastic crop of carrots you got this year and how much nicer they taste than shop bought carrots.

Some of your friends will be fine with you circumstance but very many will not because you will remind them of their poor choices in life.

Then that's their loss. I don't want to associate with people who possess such shallow thinking. (That might be why I don't have many people I socialise with).

[UrbanAchiever]

No need to hide your retirement from me by the way. You've done a great job.

Thanks! And I hope your approach will get you where you want - sounds like you deserve it.

I used to wear a £10 Casio, as did my dad, but I got fed up with the straps breaking

Hehe! Me too. The ones I buy come with a 10 year battery guarantee, but the strap brakes a long before then. And a replacement strap is often the same price as a new watch! Good for you buying a longer lasting, better quality watch at a decent price!

Some of your friends will be fine with you circumstance but very many will not because you will remind them of their poor choices in life.

That's an interesting thought that I hadn't considered. However, I'm already starting to tell them my plans (because I'm so fed up of work), and they seem to be reacting ok. But the test will be when I actually do it!

[Darka]

I'm not going to feel guilty or hide early retirement from others. Some wear watches to "show off", I will wear my "retirement badge" with pride.

I'm just beginning to come round to thinking this way too, I still feel guilty telling people but I shouldn't as I've worked hard to achieve it so should be more proud of that fact.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

I'm not so sure FIRE has seen it's day. Below are the funds and Trusts that if full annual ISA allowances had been added since their inception in 1999 would have now surpassed £1m. Initial ISA allowances were lower too. Parents, Grandparents and anyone can put money in a child's JISA with a maximum allowance of £9K per year. It's a start and will certainly add to the compounding effects.

Code: Select all

Fund                                       | Sector                           | Current ISA value
Baillie Gifford American                   | North America                    |        £1,423,136
Liontrust UK Smaller Companies             | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,268,961
Baillie Gifford Pacific                    | Asia Pacific Excluding Japan     |        £1,260,408
Janus Henderson Global Tech Leaders        | Tech and Tech Innovations        |        £1,248,798
abrdn Indian Equity                        | India/Indian Subcontinent        |        £1,153,411
ASI UK Smaller Companies                   | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,130,795
Janus Henderson European Smaller Companies | European Smaller Companies       |        £1,089,796
AXA Framlington American Growth            | North America                    |        £1,085,387
Threadneedle American Smaller Companies    | North American Smaller Companies |        £1,074,175
Threadneedle European Smaller Companies    | European Smaller Companies       |        £1,073,352
Schroder UK Dynamic Smaller Companies      | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,067,174
BlackRock UK Smaller Companies             | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,064,004
Threadneedle American                      | North America                    |        £1,015,227
Barings Europe Select                      | European Smaller Companies       |        £1,004,378

Trust                                      | Sector                           | Current ISA value
Scottish Mortgage                          | Global                           |        £1,805,666
Allianz Technology Trust                   | Technology & Media               |        £1,788,035
HgCapital Trust                            | Private Equity                   |        £1,650,276
Polar Capital Technology                   | Technology & Media               |        £1,604,156
Pacific Horizon Ord                        | Asia Pacific                     |        £1,521,259
Aberdeen Standard Asia Focus               | Asia Pacific Smaller Companies   |        £1,331,389
Oryx International Growth                  | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,277,763
Rights & Issues Investment Trust           | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,221,963
BlackRock Smaller Companies                | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,202,387
3i                                         | Private Equity                   |        £1,165,188
BlackRock Throgmorton Trust                | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,152,318
JPMorgan Russian Securities                | Country Specialist               |        £1,102,515
Scottish Oriental Smaller Cos              | Asia Pacific Smaller Companies   |        £1,096,375
Scottish Oriental Smaller Cos              | Asia Pacific Smaller Companies   |        £1,096,375
Worldwide Healthcare                       | Biotechnology & Healthcare       |        £1,068,341
North Atlantic Smaller Cos                 | Global Smaller Companies         |        £1,068,009
JPMorgan UK Smaller Cos                    | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,059,023
abrdn UK Smaller Companies Growth          | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,052,933
Herald                                     | Global Smaller Companies         |        £1,032,475
Invesco Perpetual UK Smaller               | UK Smaller Companies             |        £1,022,742
JPMorgan American                          | North America                    |        £1,017,739
JPMorgan European Discovery                | European Smaller Companies       |        £1,009,846
Biotech Growth                             | Biotechnology & Healthcare       |        £1,005,425


AiY(D)

[andyalan10]

I'm thinking it is still realistic for those on high incomes and low outgoings, as there will always going to be some in very high paying jobs who can afford to retire early.

But the environment is very difficult now. And different now. We've had 2+ years of a global pandemic, a war in Europe, high and growing inflation, stockmarket volatility and a correction in growth stocks.

Bringing this all the way back to Adamski's original post, I'd like to add a few points:-

To me, with a UK centric perspective, although I no longer live there, FIRE seems less likely to be flavour of the month for a number of reasons:-

Falling average real incomes
Student loan repayments
Ever increasing real cost of renting or purchasing a home.

The path that those of us in our 50s, 60s and 70s might have followed of "Buy house for 3 times income, see interest rates steadily fall, clear mortgage, be able to stop or significantly reduce work at 50-60" looks to be impossible for all except a very small proportion of people now in their 20s.

Anything else I could add here would very easily become "grumpy old man" or "political", so I will stop at that...

[Itsallaguess]

For me it’s about not blindly following the script that seems to be your default life.

I think that's a great way to both describe and approach these types of things, and in relation to the thread-topic, I also maintain that whilst any given generation might find it easier or harder than others to achieve such 'off-script results', there will, within each particular generation, be those that choose to live their lives in a financially-focussed way that means that they are likely to experience FIRE-related rewards that many of their own generational-peers do not...

Surely the 'Early' in FIRE doesn't necessarily mean early compared to other generations - surely it primarily just means 'Early' when compared to our own, and when considered in that context, then I'd hate to put off anyone in a younger age-bracket who might look to give up before they've even started to hope for these sorts of later-life benefits...

'Early' doesn't have to mean that I have to retire before my Dad did.

It just needs to mean earlier than I would have done if I hadn't bothered trying...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[scrumpyjack]

I'm thinking it is still realistic for those on high incomes and low outgoings, as there will always going to be some in very high paying jobs who can afford to retire early.

But the environment is very difficult now. And different now. We've had 2+ years of a global pandemic, a war in Europe, high and growing inflation, stockmarket volatility and a correction in growth stocks.

Bringing this all the way back to Adamski's original post, I'd like to add a few points:-

To me, with a UK centric perspective, although I no longer live there, FIRE seems less likely to be flavour of the month for a number of reasons:-

Falling average real incomes
Student loan repayments
Ever increasing real cost of renting or purchasing a home.

The path that those of us in our 50s, 60s and 70s might have followed of "Buy house for 3 times income, see interest rates steadily fall, clear mortgage, be able to stop or significantly reduce work at 50-60" looks to be impossible for all except a very small proportion of people now in their 20s.

Anything else I could add here would very easily become "grumpy old man" or "political", so I will stop at that...

But against that, the major positive factor is the huge increase in inheritance as the generation that made a fortune out of buying a house, and perhaps have a personal pension that can be passed on, flake out!

[Hariseldon58]

I don’t see why FIRE should die out, it’s not a common situation now by any means, it requires a good income and some restraint with spending.

I agree house buying was easier but my investments exceeded my home value fairly early on in the process.

The driving force was restraint of lifestyle inflation and equity investment month in and month out, despite several major market falls, regular investment paid off.

It may not in the future but I see scant evidence of it not being possible.

[Wuffle]

The water gets a bit murky when the baton gets passed from the final salary pension generation to the inherit generation.
One lot couldn't shaft the kids but one lot could, if they chose to.
Are you?
Just asking.

W.

[dealtn]

I'm thinking it is still realistic for those on high incomes and low outgoings, as there will always going to be some in very high paying jobs who can afford to retire early.

But the environment is very difficult now. And different now. We've had 2+ years of a global pandemic, a war in Europe, high and growing inflation, stockmarket volatility and a correction in growth stocks.

Bringing this all the way back to Adamski's original post, I'd like to add a few points:-

To me, with a UK centric perspective, although I no longer live there, FIRE seems less likely to be flavour of the month for a number of reasons:-

Falling average real incomes

See

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2021

Section 4 - Graph

Hard to spot that "Falling average real incomes"

[Quint]

For me it’s about not blindly following the script that seems to be your default life.

I think that's a great way to both describe and approach these types of things, and in relation to the thread-topic, I also maintain that whilst any given generation might find it easier or harder than others to achieve such 'off-script results', there will, within each particular generation, be those that choose to live their lives in a financially-focussed way that means that they are likely to experience FIRE-related rewards that many of their own generational-peers do not...

Surely the 'Early' in FIRE doesn't necessarily mean early compared to other generations - surely it primarily just means 'Early' when compared to our own, and when considered in that context, then I'd hate to put off anyone in a younger age-bracket who might look to give up before they've even started to hope for these sorts of later-life benefits...

'Early' doesn't have to mean that I have to retire before my Dad did.

It just needs to mean earlier than I would have done if I hadn't bothered trying...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I define early as before state pension age. Even if someone manages one year early they are still a winner, it is one year of their life they will get back.