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Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

General discussions about equity high-yield income strategies
Dod101
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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#310849

Postby Dod101 » May 22nd, 2020, 7:30 am

By the way when I said 'I do not bother with this sort of thing', I did not intend to sound dismissive but I usually go to the Annual Report if I want information and prefer not to rely on third party sources. A lot seem to rely on Morningstar. It is though sometimes useful to get a third party opinion but do not rely on them!

Dod

ReallyVeryFoolish
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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#310853

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » May 22nd, 2020, 7:55 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
I do not know if there are many fans but I have held it for some years. It gets disparaged by some for being 'stodgy' but Bruce Stout the manager is simply quite cautious and conservative.

Yield 5.6% and looking good and diversified well away from the UK with a reasonable exposure to emerging markets.


Thanks Dod101 and IAAG. I take both your points. I like the diversification in MYI. And at the moment, "stodgy" might be just the ticket.

Comfort food in difficult times?


One of the issues that I've had in the past when trying to continue 'normal investment processes' during these types of markets is that it's very easy to become 'operationally paralysed' by the fear of everything going on around us.

Diverse Investment Trusts such as MYI, for me at least, are exactly the antidote I need during these periods, and they deliver a fairly palatable route into achieving somewhere near 'operational normality' where it might otherwise be much more difficult..

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Cheers, exactly my thought process.

RVF

JuanDB
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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#310877

Postby JuanDB » May 22nd, 2020, 9:12 am

I currently have a small holding of around £8k in Murray International. My usual approach to investing in a new IT is to take a small position to get some skin in the game and then as funds come available ramp up the investment fairly quickly, normally within 6-9 months. My initial purchase was around £11.66 (4.4% yield if I recall correctly) and the current drop is well timed as I’ll be purchasing a few big tranches over the next few months.

As IAAG said the diverse portfolio is a great antidote to some of the more focused ITs, in particular UK income.

My original purchase rationale for MYI was regular growing income with a question mark over capital appreciation. Now I see upside on the capital side and a higher income. Much happier with the decision at these prices.

Cheers,

Juan.

ReallyVeryFoolish
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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#310886

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » May 22nd, 2020, 9:31 am

JuanDB wrote:I currently have a small holding of around £8k in Murray International. My usual approach to investing in a new IT is to take a small position to get some skin in the game and then as funds come available ramp up the investment fairly quickly, normally within 6-9 months. My initial purchase was around £11.66 (4.4% yield if I recall correctly) and the current drop is well timed as I’ll be purchasing a few big tranches over the next few months.

As IAAG said the diverse portfolio is a great antidote to some of the more focused ITs, in particular UK income.

My original purchase rationale for MYI was regular growing income with a question mark over capital appreciation. Now I see upside on the capital side and a higher income. Much happier with the decision at these prices.

Cheers,

Juan.

Couldn't agree more. Thanks.

RVF

ADrunkenMarcus
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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311221

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » May 22nd, 2020, 9:48 pm

You may wish to watch - particularly 4 mins in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwNrKBV ... 1590176990

Wizard
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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311249

Postby Wizard » May 23rd, 2020, 12:08 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
JuanDB wrote:I currently have a small holding of around £8k in Murray International. My usual approach to investing in a new IT is to take a small position to get some skin in the game and then as funds come available ramp up the investment fairly quickly, normally within 6-9 months. My initial purchase was around £11.66 (4.4% yield if I recall correctly) and the current drop is well timed as I’ll be purchasing a few big tranches over the next few months.

As IAAG said the diverse portfolio is a great antidote to some of the more focused ITs, in particular UK income.

My original purchase rationale for MYI was regular growing income with a question mark over capital appreciation. Now I see upside on the capital side and a higher income. Much happier with the decision at these prices.

Cheers,

Juan.

Couldn't agree more. Thanks.
I am not an IT guy, but having read these last few posts I thought I would have a look at MYI. Really basic question, but based on the AIC tables it seems a poor performer versus othe Global Income ITs, so simple question, why MYI instead of any of the others?
RVF

Dod101
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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311252

Postby Dod101 » May 23rd, 2020, 12:29 am

Itsallaguess wrote:Diverse Investment Trusts such as MYI, for me at least, are exactly the antidote I need during these periods, and they deliver a fairly palatable route into achieving somewhere near 'operational normality' where it might otherwise be much more difficult.


You actually I assume,mean diverse investment trusts, because what you have said seems to refer to Diverse Investment Trust, something quite different.

Overall MYI does the job required of it by me. It produces a rising income and a decent rise in capital value over a period. Not sure that you can expect much more from an IT than that.

Dod

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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311297

Postby Darka » May 23rd, 2020, 9:05 am

ADrunkenMarcus wrote:You may wish to watch - particularly 4 mins in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwNrKBV ... 1590176990



Excellent video, thanks for sharing.

I'm happy holding MYI, along with my other Investment Trusts.

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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311299

Postby Wizard » May 23rd, 2020, 9:17 am

Wizard wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
JuanDB wrote:I currently have a small holding of around £8k in Murray International. My usual approach to investing in a new IT is to take a small position to get some skin in the game and then as funds come available ramp up the investment fairly quickly, normally within 6-9 months. My initial purchase was around £11.66 (4.4% yield if I recall correctly) and the current drop is well timed as I’ll be purchasing a few big tranches over the next few months.

As IAAG said the diverse portfolio is a great antidote to some of the more focused ITs, in particular UK income.

My original purchase rationale for MYI was regular growing income with a question mark over capital appreciation. Now I see upside on the capital side and a higher income. Much happier with the decision at these prices.

Cheers,

Juan.

Couldn't agree more. Thanks.
I am not an IT guy, but having read these last few posts I thought I would have a look at MYI. Really basic question, but based on the AIC tables it seems a poor performer versus othe Global Income ITs, so simple question, why MYI instead of any of the others?
RVF

I can see I totally messed up that post, inserting my question into the quote. I will try again...

I am not an IT guy, but having read these last few posts I thought I would have a look at MYI. Really basic question, but based on the AIC tables it seems a poor performer versus othe Global Income ITs, so simple question, why MYI instead of any of the others?

ReallyVeryFoolish
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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311305

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » May 23rd, 2020, 9:44 am

Wizard wrote:
Wizard wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Couldn't agree more. Thanks.
I am not an IT guy, but having read these last few posts I thought I would have a look at MYI. Really basic question, but based on the AIC tables it seems a poor performer versus othe Global Income ITs, so simple question, why MYI instead of any of the others?
RVF

I can see I totally messed up that post, inserting my question into the quote. I will try again...

I am not an IT guy, but having read these last few posts I thought I would have a look at MYI. Really basic question, but based on the AIC tables it seems a poor performer versus othe Global Income ITs, so simple question, why MYI instead of any of the others?

Good question, perhaps I should take another look, thanks for the prompting. I won't be buying until next week, I can take another look.

RVF.

OK, didn't take me long to choose there's only six to choose from at AIC - To recap, global diversification rather than UK, modest discount, some heavy hitters looking forward to 21st century economies - Samsung, Taiwan Semi for example, pretty good yield, decent income reserve, about 25% below market highs. And if it's a bit "stodgy" as suggested, then like I said, comfort food for difficult times.

RVF

Dod101
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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311319

Postby Dod101 » May 23rd, 2020, 10:05 am

As always it depends when you bought it. I have held it off and on for years and follow it quite closely and I bought my current holding at £8.25 in 2015. It then slowly rose to about £11/12 where it remained for a long while until the current crash. Meanwhile the dividend kept rising so I was quite happy with that but obviously I could have done better on the capital front. Bruce Stout is a very conservative guy and the shares are well spread mostly overseas. I am very happy with Murray International but it depends what you are looking for. He is 60ish so will not be there for ever.

Dod

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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311416

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » May 23rd, 2020, 1:43 pm

Wizard wrote:I am not an IT guy, but having read these last few posts I thought I would have a look at MYI. Really basic question, but based on the AIC tables it seems a poor performer versus othe Global Income ITs, so simple question, why MYI instead of any of the others?


It's a good one.

One potential answer lies in Bruce Stout's pessimistic assessment of the developed world and what he has called the 'economic vandalism' of unorthodox monetary policies, including money printing. Perhaps he will be shown to be right in the 2020s.

Best wishes

Mark.

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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311485

Postby Arborbridge » May 23rd, 2020, 4:07 pm

Wizard wrote:
I am not an IT guy, but having read these last few posts I thought I would have a look at MYI. Really basic question, but based on the AIC tables it seems a poor performer versus othe Global Income ITs, so simple question, why MYI instead of any of the others?


A really good question and gets to the heart of how we choose investments, generally. I always fly to the charts, but as Dod pointed out today, the past is no guide to the future. I'd say MYI has been a reasonable example of this, for up to three years ago, the XIRR of my holding was going well - broadly in double figures, between 10% and 13.8% across a number of periods. Then people started muttering that the perfomance had dropped off, which it has, incrementally each time I've made a note of it. Now it's a dog down to an XIRR of 2.8% - which implies my dividends are being taken from capital, in effect. That is what you are seeing in the charts now, and I don't blame you for knowing you could probably do better,

For me, what do I do? I have a trust which may well recover as the C-19 is gradually brought under control, and which has been paying a good yield with payouts increasing above RPI. It invests in a good spread of countries with a 20%, roughly, exposure to the US and is run by a conservative manager.

It's all a big gamble, but with a small discount and a yield of 5.6% - not too big, not too small - I decided to top up this month. I reckon it is probably sound enough to give me some pension income, but not shoot the lights out.

A salutary tale is my branding of MUT as a big dog. On my routine method of checking XIRR it was always below the median of all my income ITs. Eventually, I drew the line and sold it. Could have been a mistake, for I believe it's done rather better since I sold it and far better than EDIN, MRCH and SCF which topped up with the proceeds. Incidentally, I also sold DIG slightly earlier, and that has held up well, almost indentically with MUT. Selling either, turns out to have been the wrong thing to do during this period.

I haven't a clue what will happen next, which is why I invest across a good number of ITs. I try not to sell too much either, which does sound rather HYP-like, but based on decades of experience, chopping and changing or trying to second guess what will happen next is beyond me, and, I'm sure most people. All one can do, is buy/sell what appears right to you at that moment, and not beat yourself up about it later!

As I say, your's is a really good question, and standing in your shoes, I'd probably pass over MYI, but whether that is right or not, only the future can tell - and that ain't saying nuffin.

Arb.

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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311756

Postby dundas666 » May 24th, 2020, 3:35 pm

ADrunkenMarcus wrote:
Wizard wrote:I am not an IT guy, but having read these last few posts I thought I would have a look at MYI. Really basic question, but based on the AIC tables it seems a poor performer versus othe Global Income ITs, so simple question, why MYI instead of any of the others?


It's a good one.

One potential answer lies in Bruce Stout's pessimistic assessment of the developed world and what he has called the 'economic vandalism' of unorthodox monetary policies, including money printing. Perhaps he will be shown to be right in the 2020s.


Yeah Bruce Stout seems very positive about Asia (and to a lesser extent Latin America), but very negative about the prospects in the developed world.

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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#311996

Postby Arborbridge » May 25th, 2020, 11:16 am

dundas666 wrote:Yeah Bruce Stout seems very positive about Asia (and to a lesser extent Latin America), but very negative about the prospects in the developed world.


But isn't that his job? He is, as they say, talking his own book.

My assumption is that Asia isn't a bad place to be: having gone into the crisis earlier, there's a chance it will come out earlier. In any case I am not reducting my investments outside the UK, but possibly increasing them slightly. The UK could well be the big dog what with confusion and poor handling of Covid and the compounding effect of Brexit on the negative outlook.

Arb.

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Re: Income Investment Trusts - are these the times they (relatively...) shine?

#312009

Postby monabri » May 25th, 2020, 11:43 am

Arborbridge wrote:
dundas666 wrote:Yeah Bruce Stout seems very positive about Asia (and to a lesser extent Latin America), but very negative about the prospects in the developed world.


But isn't that his job? He is, as they say, talking his own book.

My assumption is that Asia isn't a bad place to be: having gone into the crisis earlier, there's a chance it will come out earlier. In any case I am not reducting my investments outside the UK, but possibly increasing them slightly. The UK could well be the big dog what with confusion and poor handling of Covid and the compounding effect of Brexit on the negative outlook.

Arb.


But at least the big multinationals have earnings in other markets. I would not want to be holding shares in UK market only companies...methinks tears before bedtime. The better ones will get taken out by the likes of Fosun and other predators.


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