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What's so good about dividend investing?

General discussions about equity high-yield income strategies
absolutezero
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439208

Postby absolutezero » September 2nd, 2021, 11:54 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
1nvest wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
reminding ourselves that we're currently on the High Yield Shares & Strategies board, with the guidelines that are often completely ignored by many of the room-barging proponents

The High Yield Share Strategies board is intended for wide-ranging discussions of ways to use the natural yield arising from higher-yielding equities to generate an income. - https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8652,

hopefully you might be able to appreciated why it's persistently frustrating for many 'income-investors' who wish to discuss their approaches on these boards, when such regular room-bargers are persistently rude with their forced, non-income-investment-related interruptions...


The guidelines do not specify DIVIDEND yield, that's just Itsallaguess interpretation.

High Earnings Yield may involve assets that do not pay any dividends. A factor is that higher and more consistent earnings yields might be sourced out of a asset set/portfolio that includes some with low yield negative correlations.


How can assets that do not pay any dividends be classed as having a 'natural yield arising from higher-yielding equities to generate an income'?

Read the board guidelines again - it's you that's misreading them and mis-representing them to your own aims...

Itsallaguess

Interest is not a dividend.
A high yield bond could be held as opposed to a share.

Itsallaguess
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439209

Postby Itsallaguess » September 2nd, 2021, 11:56 am

absolutezero wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
1nvest wrote:


The guidelines do not specify DIVIDEND yield, that's just Itsallaguess interpretation.

High Earnings Yield may involve assets that do not pay any dividends. A factor is that higher and more consistent earnings yields might be sourced out of a asset set/portfolio that includes some with low yield negative correlations.


How can assets that do not pay any dividends be classed as having a 'natural yield arising from higher-yielding equities to generate an income'?

Read the board guidelines again - it's you that's misreading them and mis-representing them to your own aims...


Interest is not a dividend.

A high yield bond could be held as opposed to a share.


But it's a 'natural yield'......

The methods 1nvest regularly spams into these conversations involve direct and regular sales to generate income - so that's not a 'natural yield' process, and so off-topic for this board...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

absolutezero
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439210

Postby absolutezero » September 2nd, 2021, 12:00 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
How can assets that do not pay any dividends be classed as having a 'natural yield arising from higher-yielding equities to generate an income'?

Read the board guidelines again - it's you that's misreading them and mis-representing them to your own aims...


Interest is not a dividend.

A high yield bond could be held as opposed to a share.


But it's a 'natural yield'......

The methods 1nvest regularly spams into these conversations involve direct and regular sales to generate income - so that's not a 'natural yield' process, and so off-topic for this board...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I don't see your issue with people having a conversation (or 'spamming' as you incorrectly call it) about other assets or how to manage a portfolio to generate an income. Especially here in HYSS, where the word 'strategy' appears.

You are free to ignore and not participate.
You could just leave the rest of us to have the conversation without your angry and dogmatic posts complaining about us having it.

Itsallaguess
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439212

Postby Itsallaguess » September 2nd, 2021, 12:02 pm

absolutezero wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
Interest is not a dividend.

A high yield bond could be held as opposed to a share.


But it's a 'natural yield'......

The methods 1nvest regularly spams into these conversations involve direct and regular sales to generate income - so that's not a 'natural yield' process, and so off-topic for this board...


I don't see your issue with people having a conversation (or 'spamming' as you incorrectly call it) about other assets or how to manage a portfolio to generate an income. Especially here in HYSS, where the word 'strategy' appears.

You are free to ignore and not participate.

You could just leave the rest of us to have the conversation without your angry and dogmatic posts complaining about us having it.


Please don't change the subject on this particular point - do you think that sales-based growth strategies, that require regular manual intervention to generate user-level income should be properly described as being 'natural yield' processes?

Yes or No?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Itsallaguess
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439213

Postby Itsallaguess » September 2nd, 2021, 12:03 pm

hiriskpaul wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
As a (primarily) IT-related income-investor (multi-sector / global-scope), and as one who is happy to 'contract out' those decision-making processes, as well as taking advantage of those sub-managed processes such as income-smoothing/revenue-reserves etc., it's the 'hands off' income-stream I'm interested in, and being able to track it, see and measure it's general long-term growth, judge it's long-term reliability, and be able to pitch those against any calculated safety-criteria (cash buffers etc..) when set against my long-term, post-work income requirements, without feeling the need to get too directly involved with day-to-day, market-related activities, that are some of the main attractions of the overall 'income-strategy' to me.


That's very interesting thanks. You appear to have much the same position as me with respect to the underlying source of income. It could come from dividends, or from the sale of shares. Does that mean that you are entirely comfortable for an IT to hold shares that paid little to no income and are agnostic as to the portfolio's dividend yield? That would seem to follow as what matters to you is the income paid by the IT, not how the IT generates that income.

Would you be interested in a system such as that operated by Vanguard that would make regular payments to you from dividends and occasional disposals? Or would you prefer to have someone else (the fund manager in the case of an IT) make decisions on the level of income to be paid? ie to decide on what was sustainable. I am assuming this system would be run at very low cost, not suggesting using an expensive wealth manager!


As an income-investor I'm keenly interested in some of the new income-related IT's that are recently emerging that fish in what we might normally describe as a more 'growth orientated' pools (and as you imply, where those fish perhaps don't of themselves pay any overly useful level of dividends...), but which then look to pay out as regular dividends, a percentage of underlying NAV, presumably requiring some level of underlying sales being required to then generate such payouts, so there's certainly no fundamental reason, for me at least, to avoid looking at those types of investments, as they'd predominantly deliver the same end-result as more 'underlying dividend-based' income-IT's, in that an investor holding them would, with a fair wind, continue to see income 'delivered' in a hands-off way, but with the relevant 'NAV-based' IT-managers dealing with the generation and delivery of those outward-facing dividends in a slightly different way...

And that's probably as good an opportunity as we're likely to get on this particular thread for me to do what I try really hard not to, and raise what I personally think is my single biggest criticism of the focussed high-yield HYP strategy itself, in that by primarily locking itself and it's proponents into a relatively old and very rigid investment framework, largely based on an historical investment landscape and product-set that bears little resemblance to the one cheaply and more widely available *today*, I think it unfortunately paints itself into a highly focussed and potentially risk-based corner that, in my personal view, doesn't deliver enough of a benefit to strongly justify doing so..

I say that as someone that started out income-investing by following the HYP method, but what I'd also say is that my personal journey was also an 'of it's time' one, and I think if I were to see myself at that younger age being in the same position today, with an interest in income-investing but with the much-improved investment landscape opportunities that exist today, then I'd have most probably short-cut my longer journey, and missed the HYP bit out altogether, and probably have started out with a much broader IT-based portfolio, venturing into the wider sector and geographical areas that are available to them (whilst sticking with the income-investing theme), and also looking at these new types of 'NAV-based yield generators' that are becoming available, that do seem to be looking to hit that sweet-spot of taking advantage of more growthy areas of the markets, whilst still delivering to income-seekers by keeping much of the mechanisms of cash-generation behind the IT-scenes, and still looking to the end-user as a 'yield-based' investment....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439215

Postby absolutezero » September 2nd, 2021, 12:08 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
But it's a 'natural yield'......

The methods 1nvest regularly spams into these conversations involve direct and regular sales to generate income - so that's not a 'natural yield' process, and so off-topic for this board...


I don't see your issue with people having a conversation (or 'spamming' as you incorrectly call it) about other assets or how to manage a portfolio to generate an income. Especially here in HYSS, where the word 'strategy' appears.

You are free to ignore and not participate.

You could just leave the rest of us to have the conversation without your angry and dogmatic posts complaining about us having it.


Please don't change the subject on this particular point - do you think that sales-based growth strategies, that require regular manual intervention to generate user-level income should be properly described as being 'natural yield' processes?

Yes or No?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I don't care either way. That's been my consistent point all along.
I'm now thinking you are spamming this thread for mischief or attention.

absolutezero
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439216

Postby absolutezero » September 2nd, 2021, 12:11 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
hiriskpaul wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
As a (primarily) IT-related income-investor (multi-sector / global-scope), and as one who is happy to 'contract out' those decision-making processes, as well as taking advantage of those sub-managed processes such as income-smoothing/revenue-reserves etc., it's the 'hands off' income-stream I'm interested in, and being able to track it, see and measure it's general long-term growth, judge it's long-term reliability, and be able to pitch those against any calculated safety-criteria (cash buffers etc..) when set against my long-term, post-work income requirements, without feeling the need to get too directly involved with day-to-day, market-related activities, that are some of the main attractions of the overall 'income-strategy' to me.


That's very interesting thanks. You appear to have much the same position as me with respect to the underlying source of income. It could come from dividends, or from the sale of shares. Does that mean that you are entirely comfortable for an IT to hold shares that paid little to no income and are agnostic as to the portfolio's dividend yield? That would seem to follow as what matters to you is the income paid by the IT, not how the IT generates that income.

Would you be interested in a system such as that operated by Vanguard that would make regular payments to you from dividends and occasional disposals? Or would you prefer to have someone else (the fund manager in the case of an IT) make decisions on the level of income to be paid? ie to decide on what was sustainable. I am assuming this system would be run at very low cost, not suggesting using an expensive wealth manager!


As an income-investor I'm keenly interested in some of the new income-related IT's that are recently emerging that fish in what we might normally describe as a more 'growth orientated' pools (and as you imply, where those fish perhaps don't of themselves pay any overly useful level of dividends...), but which then look to pay out as regular dividends, a percentage of underlying NAV, presumably requiring some level of underlying sales being required to then generate such payouts, so there's certainly no fundamental reason, for me at least, to avoid looking at those types of investments, as they'd predominantly deliver the same end-result as more 'underlying dividend-based' income-IT's, in that an investor holding them would, with a fair wind, continue to see income 'delivered' in a hands-off way, but with the relevant 'NAV-based' IT-managers dealing with the generation and delivery of those outward-facing dividends in a slightly different way...

And that's probably as good an opportunity as we're likely to get on this particular thread for me to do what I try really hard not to, and raise what I personally think is my single biggest criticism of the focussed high-yield HYP strategy itself, in that by primarily locking itself and it's proponents into a relatively old and very rigid investment framework, largely based on an historical investment landscape and product-set that bears little resemblance to the one cheaply and more widely available *today*, I think it unfortunately paints itself into a highly focussed and potentially risk-based corner that, in my personal view, doesn't deliver enough of a benefit to strongly justify doing so..

I say that as someone that started out income-investing by following the HYP method, but what I'd also say is that my personal journey was also an 'of it's time' one, and I think if I were to see myself at that younger age being in the same position today, with an interest in income-investing but with the much-improved investment landscape opportunities that exist today, then I'd have most probably short-cut my longer journey, and missed the HYP bit out altogether, and probably have started out with a much broader IT-based portfolio, venturing into the wider sector and geographical areas that are available to them (whilst sticking with the income-investing theme), and also looking at these new types of 'NAV-based yield generators' that are becoming available, that do seem to be looking to hit that sweet-spot of taking advantage of more growthy areas of the markets, whilst still delivering to income-seekers by keeping much of the mechanisms of cash-generation behind the IT-scenes, and still looking to the end-user as a 'yield-based' investment....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Now this is a constructive post. Finally.

How do you feel about ITs like International Biotech Trust or European Assets Trust?
These ITs typically hold lower yielding shares and sell a % of the value of the shares held at year end to generate some cash which they then pay to you as a dividend.
So in your view, is this a 'natural yield'?

Itsallaguess
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439218

Postby Itsallaguess » September 2nd, 2021, 12:17 pm

absolutezero wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
I don't see your issue with people having a conversation (or 'spamming' as you incorrectly call it) about other assets or how to manage a portfolio to generate an income. Especially here in HYSS, where the word 'strategy' appears.

You are free to ignore and not participate.

You could just leave the rest of us to have the conversation without your angry and dogmatic posts complaining about us having it.


Please don't change the subject on this particular point - do you think that sales-based growth strategies, that require regular manual intervention to generate user-level income should be properly described as being 'natural yield' processes?

Yes or No?


I don't care either way. That's been my consistent point all along.

I'm now thinking you are spamming this thread for mischief or attention.


But those that might come to this board to avoid off-topic discussions might care - and after all, that's one of the primary reasons that a specific set of board guidelines is ever drawn up - to help define what is 'on-topic' and what is 'off-topic' for a given area of topical discussions.

This board has the following guidelines -

The High Yield Share Strategies board is intended for wide-ranging discussions of ways to use the natural yield arising from higher-yielding equities to generate an income. Securities such as preference shares, PIBs, Investment Trusts, and ETFs etc can all be considered.

It is recognized that a higher yield can be a proxy for value characteristics, and that selecting higher-yielding equities on that basis can contribute to a total return strategy.

It is emphasised that value strategies and total return strategies are NOT the remit of this board, which is intended for discussions of higher-yielding equities for the purposes of generating an income through such equities' natural yield.


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8652

Please read them again, and focus on that final paragraph, and then please tell me if you think that 1nvest's approach to generating 'income', which directly involves regular and manual sales to generate that cash, bears any resemblance to the overarching themes described in those guidelines?

Either say that you do, or if you can't say that, please then agree that his process is off-topic for this board....

Which is it?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

1nvest
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439219

Postby 1nvest » September 2nd, 2021, 12:19 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
How can assets that do not pay any dividends be classed as having a 'natural yield arising from higher-yielding equities to generate an income'?

Read the board guidelines again - it's you that's misreading them and mis-representing them to your own aims...


Interest is not a dividend.

A high yield bond could be held as opposed to a share.


But it's a 'natural yield'......

The methods 1nvest regularly spams into these conversations involve direct and regular sales to generate income - so that's not a 'natural yield' process, and so off-topic for this board...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Depends upon your interpretation of "natural yield". Inverse of PE - earnings yield? Dividend Yield? Yield provided out of DIY dividends? What SWR can reasonably be expected to be withdrawn with a reasonable probability of success?

Again your repeated preconceptions and insults are tiresome and have pretty much derailed this and other posts/threads. That is what I could consider to be "spam".

absolutezero
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439221

Postby absolutezero » September 2nd, 2021, 12:23 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:


Please don't change the subject on this particular point - do you think that sales-based growth strategies, that require regular manual intervention to generate user-level income should be properly described as being 'natural yield' processes?

Yes or No?


I don't care either way. That's been my consistent point all along.

I'm now thinking you are spamming this thread for mischief or attention.


But those that might come to this board to avoid off-topic discussions might care - and after all, that's one of the primary reasons that a specific set of board guidelines is ever drawn up - to help define what is 'on-topic' and what is 'off-topic' for a given area of topical discussions.

This board has the following guidelines -

The High Yield Share Strategies board is intended for wide-ranging discussions of ways to use the natural yield arising from higher-yielding equities to generate an income. Securities such as preference shares, PIBs, Investment Trusts, and ETFs etc can all be considered.

It is recognized that a higher yield can be a proxy for value characteristics, and that selecting higher-yielding equities on that basis can contribute to a total return strategy.

It is emphasised that value strategies and total return strategies are NOT the remit of this board, which is intended for discussions of higher-yielding equities for the purposes of generating an income through such equities' natural yield.


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8652

Please read them again, and focus on that final paragraph, and then please tell me if you think that 1nvest's approach to generating 'income', which directly involves regular and manual sales to generate that cash, bears any resemblance to the overarching themes described in those guidelines?

Either say that you do, or if you can't say that, please then agree that his process is off-topic for this board....

Which is it?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

You have offered ONE useful contribution to this discussion. The rest of your posts have been spam and have disrupted an otherwise useful conversation with pedantry and complaints about minutiae.
You are best ignored. I have never used the FOE button but you are my first.

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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439224

Postby BBLSP1 » September 2nd, 2021, 12:28 pm

absolutezero wrote:
BBLSP1 wrote:
Indeed, I am struggling to find, at least on these boards, such discussions.


No. Such discussions are frowned upon and 'policed' by those who don't want other people to have such discussions.


By 'boards' I mean LF, not this specific board. By 'discussions' I mean in relation to growth/TR shares. Posters are free to have such discussions on the 'Growth Strategies' board or otherwise ask for a 'TR' board to be set up.

It seems the issue is whether there should be a board where the comparative merits of different strategies could be debated, or whether instead there should just be different boards for different strategies which people could dip into and make their own minds up. Whilst the former appears to be what some would like, I cannot help but feel that that way madness lies and the mods will be overworked.

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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439226

Postby absolutezero » September 2nd, 2021, 12:33 pm

BBLSP1 wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
BBLSP1 wrote:
Indeed, I am struggling to find, at least on these boards, such discussions.


No. Such discussions are frowned upon and 'policed' by those who don't want other people to have such discussions.


By 'boards' I mean LF, not this specific board. By 'discussions' I mean in relation to growth/TR shares. Posters are free to have such discussions on the 'Growth Strategies' board or otherwise ask for a 'TR' board to be set up.

It seems the issue is whether there should be a board where the comparative merits of different strategies could be debated, or whether instead there should just be different boards for different strategies which people could dip into and make their own minds up. Whilst the former appears to be what some would like, I cannot help but feel that that way madness lies and the mods will be overworked.

I think the biggest problems that stifle discussion and debate here are:
1 The structure of the boards themselves and pedantry about 'you can't post that here'. You then post it elsewhere and that leads to 2 and 3.
2 The dogmatic and aggressive stifling of ANY discussion of high yield investing that goes beyond The Rules of HYP that were sent down in tablets of stone.
3 Spam posts from those who don't like other people having a non-HYP approved opinion.

Itsallaguess
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439227

Postby Itsallaguess » September 2nd, 2021, 12:35 pm

absolutezero wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
I don't care either way. That's been my consistent point all along.

I'm now thinking you are spamming this thread for mischief or attention.


But those that might come to this board to avoid off-topic discussions might care - and after all, that's one of the primary reasons that a specific set of board guidelines is ever drawn up - to help define what is 'on-topic' and what is 'off-topic' for a given area of topical discussions.

This board has the following guidelines -

The High Yield Share Strategies board is intended for wide-ranging discussions of ways to use the natural yield arising from higher-yielding equities to generate an income. Securities such as preference shares, PIBs, Investment Trusts, and ETFs etc can all be considered.

It is recognized that a higher yield can be a proxy for value characteristics, and that selecting higher-yielding equities on that basis can contribute to a total return strategy.

It is emphasised that value strategies and total return strategies are NOT the remit of this board, which is intended for discussions of higher-yielding equities for the purposes of generating an income through such equities' natural yield.


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8652

Please read them again, and focus on that final paragraph, and then please tell me if you think that 1nvest's approach to generating 'income', which directly involves regular and manual sales to generate that cash, bears any resemblance to the overarching themes described in those guidelines?

Either say that you do, or if you can't say that, please then agree that his process is off-topic for this board....

Which is it?


You have offered ONE useful contribution to this discussion. The rest of your posts have been spam and have disrupted an otherwise useful conversation with pedantry and complaints about minutiae.

You are best ignored. I have never used the FOE button but you are my first.


Heh - so yeah - it's off-topic isn't it?

Thanks for the confirmation....

:O)

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439228

Postby Alaric » September 2nd, 2021, 12:36 pm

BBLSP1 wrote: Whilst the former appears to be what some would like, I cannot help but feel that that way madness lies and the mods will be overworked.


The wider the remit, the less need to intervene on supposedly off topic discussions and the less tiresome debate about what can or cannot be discussed..

At a top level, perhaps there are just two. These would be investing for accumulating wealth and investing to withdraw an income. The advantages or otherwise of investing for dividends can apply to both.

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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439230

Postby 1nvest » September 2nd, 2021, 12:40 pm

IAAG could argue that nothing should be discussed. Shares that pay high dividends might be interpreted as discussing Value - prohibited. Firms that sell stuff to pay a dividend out of total return prohibited. What is 'High Yield' - let's invoke a pre- conceived 20% DIVIDEND yield amount, so most investments excluded, even a stock on a PE < 5 that paid low/no dividends. Rather than partake, share and contribute he'd rather side line into definitions/interpretations, nit-pick, insult and critique a.k.a flame/spam - indeed best ignored.

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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439232

Postby absolutezero » September 2nd, 2021, 12:42 pm

Alaric wrote:
BBLSP1 wrote: Whilst the former appears to be what some would like, I cannot help but feel that that way madness lies and the mods will be overworked.


The wider the remit, the less need to intervene on supposedly off topic discussions and the less tiresome debate about what can or cannot be discussed..

At a top level, perhaps there are just two. These would be investing for accumulating wealth and investing to withdraw an income. The advantages or otherwise of investing for dividends can apply to both.

Agreed.
I wonder how much time Mods waste on deciding 'you can't say that here'.
Perhaps a wider remit would help.
Anyway. Back to the subject at hand.....

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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439233

Postby Itsallaguess » September 2nd, 2021, 12:45 pm

1nvest wrote:
IAAG could argue that nothing should be discussed. Shares that pay high dividends might be interpreted as discussing Value - prohibited. Firms that sell stuff to pay a dividend out of total return prohibited. What is 'High Yield' - let's invoke a pre- conceived 20% DIVIDEND yield amount, so most investments excluded, even a stock on a PE < 5 that paid low/no dividends. Rather than partake, share and contribute he'd rather side line into definitions/interpretations, nit-pick, insult and critique a.k.a flame/spam - indeed best ignored.


Well you're just making stuff up now, a bit like trying to mentally squeeze your SWR manual-sales strategy into a set of board guidelines that clearly show that this is a board for discussion of natural-yield investments...

I'll only ever criticise that type of wrong-headed thinking, and especially where it regularly leads to room-barging spam-fests, and if you can show me an instance where I've ever raised any of the other made-up points on your post then I'm all ears...

Itsallaguess

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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439234

Postby BBLSP1 » September 2nd, 2021, 12:46 pm

absolutezero wrote:I think the biggest problems that stifle discussion and debate here are:
1 The structure of the boards themselves and pedantry about 'you can't post that here'. You then post it elsewhere and that leads to 2 and 3.
2 The dogmatic and aggressive stifling of ANY discussion of high yield investing that goes beyond The Rules of HYP that were sent down in tablets of stone.
3 Spam posts from those who don't like other people having a non-HYP approved opinion.


But you are not discussing High Yield investing; your OP, indeed your opening line, makes it clear that you are doubting this method.

As I have noted, debates on different forms of investing tend to go nowhere, so why not just have different boards to put forward their view? You can join the swimming club or join the jogging club as you will, and having listened to the merits that they put forwards for themselves; I am not aware of any clubs which are for deciding which club to join.

I think you are being grossly unfair on IAAG and assuming bad faith where none lies. This specific board can indeed be used to debate non-HYP high yield investing, but not to promote alternatives. IAAG has made it abundantly clear that he is not a 'pure-HYP' investor.

hiriskpaul
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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439237

Postby hiriskpaul » September 2nd, 2021, 12:56 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
hiriskpaul wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
As a (primarily) IT-related income-investor (multi-sector / global-scope), and as one who is happy to 'contract out' those decision-making processes, as well as taking advantage of those sub-managed processes such as income-smoothing/revenue-reserves etc., it's the 'hands off' income-stream I'm interested in, and being able to track it, see and measure it's general long-term growth, judge it's long-term reliability, and be able to pitch those against any calculated safety-criteria (cash buffers etc..) when set against my long-term, post-work income requirements, without feeling the need to get too directly involved with day-to-day, market-related activities, that are some of the main attractions of the overall 'income-strategy' to me.


That's very interesting thanks. You appear to have much the same position as me with respect to the underlying source of income. It could come from dividends, or from the sale of shares. Does that mean that you are entirely comfortable for an IT to hold shares that paid little to no income and are agnostic as to the portfolio's dividend yield? That would seem to follow as what matters to you is the income paid by the IT, not how the IT generates that income.

Would you be interested in a system such as that operated by Vanguard that would make regular payments to you from dividends and occasional disposals? Or would you prefer to have someone else (the fund manager in the case of an IT) make decisions on the level of income to be paid? ie to decide on what was sustainable. I am assuming this system would be run at very low cost, not suggesting using an expensive wealth manager!


As an income-investor I'm keenly interested in some of the new income-related IT's that are recently emerging that fish in what we might normally describe as a more 'growth orientated' pools (and as you imply, where those fish perhaps don't of themselves pay any overly useful level of dividends...), but which then look to pay out as regular dividends, a percentage of underlying NAV, presumably requiring some level of underlying sales being required to then generate such payouts, so there's certainly no fundamental reason, for me at least, to avoid looking at those types of investments, as they'd predominantly deliver the same end-result as more 'underlying dividend-based' income-IT's, in that an investor holding them would, with a fair wind, continue to see income 'delivered' in a hands-off way, but with the relevant 'NAV-based' IT-managers dealing with the generation and delivery of those outward-facing dividends in a slightly different way...

And that's probably as good an opportunity as we're likely to get on this particular thread for me to do what I try really hard not to, and raise what I personally think is my single biggest criticism of the focussed high-yield HYP strategy itself, in that by primarily locking itself and it's proponents into a relatively old and very rigid investment framework, largely based on an historical investment landscape and product-set that bears little resemblance to the one cheaply and more widely available *today*, I think it unfortunately paints itself into a highly focussed and potentially risk-based corner that, in my personal view, doesn't deliver enough of a benefit to strongly justify doing so..

I say that as someone that started out income-investing by following the HYP method, but what I'd also say is that my personal journey was also an 'of it's time' one, and I think if I were to see myself at that younger age being in the same position today, with an interest in income-investing but with the much-improved investment landscape opportunities that exist today, then I'd have most probably short-cut my longer journey, and missed the HYP bit out altogether, and probably have started out with a much broader IT-based portfolio, venturing into the wider sector and geographical areas that are available to them (whilst sticking with the income-investing theme), and also looking at these new types of 'NAV-based yield generators' that are becoming available, that do seem to be looking to hit that sweet-spot of taking advantage of more growthy areas of the markets, whilst still delivering to income-seekers by keeping much of the mechanisms of cash-generation behind the IT-scenes, and still looking to the end-user as a 'yield-based' investment....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Sounds reasonable. I find it interesting that this type of discussion about dividend investing would probably not have made much sense 60 years ago. Back then the yield of the US and other foreign markets were similar to that of the UK. To get a 3-4% income from US shares now it really is necessary to take income from share disposals or end up with a very strange portfolio.

What about the idea of using the services of a broker to do automatic selling for you? You would then not be restricted to a subset of ITs that matched your income requirements, including smoothing, etc. You could choose ITs based on other criteria, or choose open ended funds. You would decide in advance what regular income you wanted and it would be paid out monthly or whatever, generating income from IT/fund disposals when there was insufficient income from dividends. I know such a service does not exist at a reasonable price, except in limited circumstances, so this is just a hypothetical question at present. Not full financial planning, not fund of fund or some "Robo" twaddle, but you choose the funds and decide in advance how they are to be managed to deliver you your required income. All at very low cost.

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Re: What's so good about dividend investing?

#439242

Postby 1nvest » September 2nd, 2021, 1:18 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:like trying to mentally squeeze your SWR manual-sales strategy into a set of board guidelines that clearly show that this is a board for discussion of natural-yield investments...

SWR has a natural yield, commonly suggested as initially being 4% of the start date portfolio value, and adjusting that value by inflation in subsequent years. With adaptations that can be bolstered, as can it be ratcheted upward to very high levels over time. In recent months/years seemingly far higher yielding than other more variable yield choices such as HYP portfolios.

SWR is the withdrawal/income yield that historically met particular objectives such as providing regular/consistent inflation adjusted income for 30 retirement years. Where the figures/probabilities reflect the worst case historic periods such that if forward time does't exceed that historic worst case the likelihood is that of a much better actual outcome.

Such worst cases can be smoothed/averaged to improve the probabilities/rewards. As can the method be adapted to ratchet up, such as uplifting the SWR value by inflation or to 4% of the ongoing portfolio value, whichever is the higher.

That path leads to a reliable at least inflation adjusted regular income, year in, year out, and more often a rising ahead of inflation income over time. A mechanical method/approach that as such has a natural yield/income provision. In contrast to other 'natural yields' that are much more susceptible to being variable and no clear lower limit.

SWR's natural yield succeeded in historic situations where dividend yield based income provision failed. As such it could be considered that SWR better reflects a reliable natural yield.

Simply with asset selectivity and style/strategy the SWR natural yield can be enhanced. Higher withdrawal/natural yields.


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