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Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

General discussions about equity high-yield income strategies
1nvest
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324029

Postby 1nvest » July 6th, 2020, 10:45 am

Lootman wrote:
Dod101 wrote: My HYP was born, long before I had ever heard of TMF never mind TLF. That is the Idea.

Where the pyadic HYP falls down, IMHO anyway, is the nonsense about never selling, and Strategic Ignorance. Neither of these concepts are sensible to me.

Certainly the idea of dividend investing is as old as the hills, especially in the UK where yields have always historically been higher. UK investors, both individual and institutional, seem to demand a higher income and so companies provide that, along with all the obviously negative implications for dividend cover, capital growth and debt levels.

As for so-called "Strategic Ignorance", that sounds to me like a simple restatement of the efficient market hypothesis (in one of its various forms), the fundamental premise of which is that an investor cannot gain any kind of edge from publicly available information. So he can only beat the market by leverage, luck or having inside information.

But of course if you believe that you'd probably be in an index fund anyway, rather than an active approach.

As for never selling, as you say, figuring out what to sell and when is much harder than figuring out what and when to buy. So just sweep it under the carpet and stick to the easy stuff :D

Equal initial weighting a collection of larger cap stocks diversified across sectors is a very old concept that generally works OK. Not adjusting versus adjusting broadly yields the same rewards, but where not adjusting tends to bias the portfolio to being tilted, often heavily, towards few stocks - concentration risk. Dividend yield as a initial valuation measure - as good a choice as any. As a alternative to a annuity for income ???

Image

Whilst nominal yields might rise and seemingly rise at a decent rate, if the rises fall short of inflation then the real (after inflation) income can decay. If the amount you've accumulated prior to retiring is close to the wire of supporting required income then you could run into problems, and relatively quickly (within perhaps a handful of years). If you've accumulated more than enough such that dividends cover twice your spending then fine, but equally other withdrawal methods/asset allocations likely work as equally well, such as Safe Withdrawal Rate, that provides a consistent inflation adjusted regular income taken out of total returns, and in being less focused upon one class of stock (high yield) opens up a broader range of potential candidate stock holdings.

scrumpyjack
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324034

Postby scrumpyjack » July 6th, 2020, 10:57 am

Yes low but rising yield would be far more sensible. Then you might get strong growing companies rather than weak past their sell by date ones

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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324042

Postby G3lc » July 6th, 2020, 11:37 am

scrumpyjack wrote:Yes low but rising yield would be far more sensible. Then you might get strong growing companies rather than weak past their sell by date ones

Yes agreed but wouldn’t this depend to some extent on ones time frame?

Alaric
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324044

Postby Alaric » July 6th, 2020, 11:37 am

Arborbridge wrote: It tends to be HYP-knockers who speak of tablets of stone, religious fervour etc, whereas pyad and HYPers tend to look rather more broadly and in practical terms.


Use of the term "HYPers" implies the existence of a club following a set of beliefs.

jackdaww
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324046

Postby jackdaww » July 6th, 2020, 11:39 am

Alaric wrote:
Arborbridge wrote: It tends to be HYP-knockers who speak of tablets of stone, religious fervour etc, whereas pyad and HYPers tend to look rather more broadly and in practical terms.


Use of the term "HYPers" implies the existence of a club following a set of beliefs.


=================================

yes , a bit school playground stuff ...

;)

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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324057

Postby scrumpyjack » July 6th, 2020, 11:58 am

G3lc wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:Yes low but rising yield would be far more sensible. Then you might get strong growing companies rather than weak past their sell by date ones

Yes agreed but wouldn’t this depend to some extent on ones time frame?


Yes but most people retiring at 65 could well have 25 years or more to go and so should be thinking longer term?

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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324064

Postby G3lc » July 6th, 2020, 12:22 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:
G3lc wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:Yes low but rising yield would be far more sensible. Then you might get strong growing companies rather than weak past their sell by date ones

Yes agreed but wouldn’t this depend to some extent on ones time frame?


Yes but most people retiring at 65 could well have 25 years or more to go and so should be thinking longer term?


OK so its a case of perhaps 2% at say 65 and hopefully 5% at 80.

1nvest
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324100

Postby 1nvest » July 6th, 2020, 2:49 pm

HYP has high concentration risk. Both dividends and share prices can be cut down deeply at the same time. Being UK stock focused it also has higher currency concentration risk. Yes many firms may have international earnings/costs, but many firms also hedge currency fluctuations risks to better stabilise reports. As a sole investment, a newly retired selling up and moving their entire wealth into a HYP in anticipation of a rising income and it covering paying their rent etc. - that would be high risk if their wealth was anywhere near at or below 25x yearly spending levels. If they own their own home, have a pension also being paid, keep some back in cash to carry them through bad times, risk is reduced. If you do hold some cash back in reserve, then that's no longer a HYP but a stock/cash (bond) asset allocation, where the rewards will broadly tend to be lower on average than a more stock heavy asset allocation, but where risk also tends to be lower due to having diversified.

More broadly, diversifying currency risk, asset risk and income stream risk is commonly known as a free-lunch - when you can achieve similar broad rewards with less concentration risk then those that are concentrated are bearing uncompensated risk. More recently it sounds like those concentrated into a HYP are seeing the negatives from such concentration risk, whilst others more broadly diversified are enjoying their free lunch. The risk was highlighted in the original HYP article ...
I wish to stress, though, that anybody considering this approach must be made aware that there are risks. Neither the income nor the capital is guaranteed. If you cannot live with that then, clearly, don't do it.

Dod101
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324102

Postby Dod101 » July 6th, 2020, 2:59 pm

I entirely agree with 1nvest and in fact what he describes is pretty much exactly what I and I imagine quite a lot of other investors do. In fact put that way, I doubt that there are all that many pure HYP investors. Most I should imagine will at the very least have a cash reserve and quite possibly another portfolio sitting alongside their HYP.

I did not appreciate that the quote at the foot of his post is taken from the original HYP article.

Dod

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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324105

Postby Alaric » July 6th, 2020, 3:09 pm

Dod101 wrote:I doubt that there are all that many pure HYP investors. Most I should imagine will at the very least have a cash reserve and quite possibly another portfolio sitting alongside their HYP.


There seem to be purist HYP Growth investors though. They will reinvest their dividends, therefore are not directly concerned by dividend cancellations. I'm not sure why they think it right to value dividends more highly than capital value as they become fully invested immediately after every reinvestment.

Dod101
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324112

Postby Dod101 » July 6th, 2020, 3:22 pm

Alaric wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I doubt that there are all that many pure HYP investors. Most I should imagine will at the very least have a cash reserve and quite possibly another portfolio sitting alongside their HYP.


There seem to be purist HYP Growth investors though. They will reinvest their dividends, therefore are not directly concerned by dividend cancellations. I'm not sure why they think it right to value dividends more highly than capital value as they become fully invested immediately after every reinvestment.


That is an interesting point. A pure HYP is no more suited to growth investing than it is to income investing. The 'builders' have been strangely quiet of late but maybe that is because they have suffered a double whammy of cancelled dividends to rfeinvest and prices dropping through the floor. Prices have of course recovered quite a bit but I imagine their total returns will be looking rather sick this year.

Dod

tjh290633
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324127

Postby tjh290633 » July 6th, 2020, 4:16 pm

jackdaww wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
TahiPanasDua wrote:It may be the case that if you didn't get into dividend investing via Lemon Fool and HYP, you are less likely to become a gospel believer.


HYP is a broad church, but not that broad. It is tolerant of those who have their own little ways. It is intolerant of those whose main mission in life is to debunk it or to lay waste to it.

TJH


it (?) is intolerant of critical appraisal .

No, it is not intolerant of critical appraisal. It is intolerant of critical messages posted in the wrong forum.

TJH

tjh290633
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324131

Postby tjh290633 » July 6th, 2020, 4:19 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Alaric wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I doubt that there are all that many pure HYP investors. Most I should imagine will at the very least have a cash reserve and quite possibly another portfolio sitting alongside their HYP.


There seem to be purist HYP Growth investors though. They will reinvest their dividends, therefore are not directly concerned by dividend cancellations. I'm not sure why they think it right to value dividends more highly than capital value as they become fully invested immediately after every reinvestment.


That is an interesting point. A pure HYP is no more suited to growth investing than it is to income investing. The 'builders' have been strangely quiet of late but maybe that is because they have suffered a double whammy of cancelled dividends to rfeinvest and prices dropping through the floor. Prices have of course recovered quite a bit but I imagine their total returns will be looking rather sick this year.

Dod

By their nature, "Builders" are investing for the long term. Short term hiccups such as we are presently undergoing are of little concern, as long as the shares they hold continue in existence and recover appropriately.

There has been a lot of rubbish written in this discussion, to which it is not worth responding.

TJH

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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324139

Postby Arborbridge » July 6th, 2020, 4:35 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
There has been a lot of rubbish written in this discussion, to which it is not worth responding.

TJH


Quite. Thank goodness such traffic is "here" and not "there" ;)

Dod101
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324141

Postby Dod101 » July 6th, 2020, 4:37 pm

tjh290633 wrote:By their nature, "Builders" are investing for the long term. Short term hiccups such as we are presently undergoing are of little concern, as long as the shares they hold continue in existence and recover appropriately.

There has been a lot of rubbish written in this discussion, to which it is not worth responding.


I agree that this may be a short term issue but I have never thought that a HYP was the best way of long term saving which is what the 'builders' are trying to achieve whether they acknowledge that or not. Whether there has been a lot of rubbish written in this discussion is a matter of opinion but I have found it quite interesting.

As for Arb's comment the benefit of this Board is that there is a lot more freedom than on the other where this would rightly have been ruled out of order.

Dod

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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324142

Postby bluedonkey » July 6th, 2020, 4:38 pm

Wake me up when this thread gets to 100 posts.

tjh290633
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324144

Postby tjh290633 » July 6th, 2020, 4:43 pm

Dod101 wrote:I have never thought that a HYP was the best way of long term saving

You have made it evident that you do not think that an HYP is the best way of investing, full stop.

TJH

jackdaww
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324153

Postby jackdaww » July 6th, 2020, 5:08 pm

bluedonkey wrote:Wake me up when this thread gets to 100 posts.


===============================

yes same here .

more and more school playground stuff.

:(

1nvest
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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324165

Postby 1nvest » July 6th, 2020, 5:29 pm

Odd, if I click on the latest post image on the main page for this thread, it takes me to a old post, not the latest !!

Image

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Re: Distinguishing between the Person, the Plan, and the Idea

#324203

Postby jonesa1 » July 6th, 2020, 10:23 pm

tjh290633 wrote:No, it is not intolerant of critical appraisal. It is intolerant of critical messages posted in the wrong forum.

TJH


What?!!! There are people who post in the wrong forum! Surely the end is nigh?


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