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Here Are Some Ideas

General discussions about equity high-yield income strategies
SalvorHardin
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Here Are Some Ideas

#337818

Postby SalvorHardin » September 3rd, 2020, 9:04 am

miner1000 recently asked “Where Are The Ideas?” on HYP-Practical. Unfortunately HYP-P doesn’t want any ideas that do not meet strict rules. Here are a few ideas that might be of interest for those HYPers who aren’t so dogmatic. People should note that I am not a HYP investor and the only HYP-P qualifying share I own is National Grid (and Unilever, which somehow qualifies even though its yield is "low").

I should point out that I consider the HYP-P “no funds rule” to be terrible advice for inexperienced income seeking investors. To me it is like letting a 17-year old who has never ridden a motorcycle start on my 800cc BMW rather than a 50cc Japanese bike or a moped.

I haven’t come across an investment trust (IT) that has stopped paying dividends in 2020, but a lot of HYP qualifying shares have done just that. We’re in a different investment universe today than when HYP first appeared on TMF. Back then stockmarket yields followed the “reverse yield gap”, where market yield was less than the yield available on medium-dated gilts. A consequence of the 2008 financial crisis was that UK stockmarket yields relative to gilts went back to the pre-1950s yield gap, with shares since the crisis continuing to yield more than gilts.

Looking for a 6% yield in today’s investment world, where medium gilts yield just 1%, is taking on board a lot more risk than getting 6% on equities when medium gilts used to yield 5%.

1) Henderson Far East Income (HFEL). 7.4% yield. Don’t expect much capital growth from this. Instant diversification into a non-UK portfolio. It’s one of my smaller holdings. The thread below is “An Alternative to HFEL“, but it has quite a bit of information about HFEL and some alternatives:

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=20063

2) Law Debenture. 4.9% yield. Another investment trust which I own, it is not a typical IT in that it owns a substantial fiduciary services business. This is typically responsible for 30% to 40% of the dividend. Law Debenture recently raised its dividend. Thread linked below:

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=24178

3) There are many more income investment trusts (e.g. Murray International). As I said about HFEL, don’t expect too much growth from them. They’re not intended to generate huge capital gains, though some investors seem to think that they should be getting dividends in excess of 5% and similar capital growth to a non-dividend paying IT. Some investors might be prepared to look at some of the JPMorgan overseas investment trusts which pay 4% of their net asset value every year as a dividend (e.g. JP Morgan Japanese Smaller Companies, which I own). These give great diversification and a higher "income" than you'd normally get from these markets (they're paying out some capital growth as income).

A key feature of investment trusts is that they can hold back dividends for future distribution (open-Ended funds can't do this). The dividends paid by many income focused open-Ended funds have been cut as a result of many UK companies cutting their dividends. In contrast ITs have generally maintained their dividends.

4) Banks. IMHO British banks are terrible investments for income seeking investors. They’re more like bombed-out recovery shares. Some (e.g. Lloyds, RBS) have spent almost half of the last twenty years not paying dividends and 2020 looks like being another dividend drought year. So why not consider Canadian banks, which have a superb track record when it comes to dividends? During the current crisis, whilst British banks have stopped paying dividends the Canadian “big five” have continued to pay. Canadian banks are also far better run than British banks. Below is a link to the recent thread: “An Alternative to UK Bank Shares”

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=23185

5) Unilever. Seriously, you’re getting a 3.2% yield on Unilever and in the context of a portfolio it doesn’t hurt to consider something that pays a bit less but is a much better business. 3.2% is a lot more than many HYP shares are currently paying. Unilever is a quality company with many of Warren Buffett’s economic moats which protect its products from being commoditised (thus eliminating most of their pricing power).

6) Now let us turn to foreign operating companies. One that often springs to mind is the food multinational KraftHeinz. This used to be a high-flyer, back in the days when Berkshire Hathaway teamed up with 3G to merge Kraft with Heinz. That has been a total disaster for investors. On the other hand, investors coming in at today’s price get a yield of 4.6%, which is 3.9% after 15% American withholding tax (bear in mind that this withholding tax can offset against your UK tax bill).

KraftHeinz makes a lot of food that has more appeal to those on lower incomes. Then again in the current economic climate a lot of people are going to be buying more KraftHeinz products and find out that they rather like them (I’ve long been a fan of their tinned macaroni cheese).
If you like the look of oil multinationals, then why restrict yourself to BP and Shell. There are plenty more of these quoted in America and Canada, and these pay pretty decent dividends (don’t ask me for specifics, I no longer hold any oil shares save those indirectly through investment trusts).

Finally for those interested as to why HYP-P has rules against considering foreign shares and funds. A few days ago I posted something about this on a thread in “Biscuit Bar”. This goes back to the days before HYP ever existed, and its origins are in the TMF Value Shares board:

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=25056&p=337124#p337124

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#337858

Postby TahiPanasDua » September 3rd, 2020, 10:39 am

Well done! Surprising how infrequently we get clear suggestions such as this.

TP2.

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#337893

Postby Itsallaguess » September 3rd, 2020, 11:57 am

SalvorHardin wrote:
Some investors might be prepared to look at some of the JPMorgan overseas investment trusts which pay 4% of their net asset value every year as a dividend (e.g. JP Morgan Japanese Smaller Companies, which I own). These give great diversification and a higher "income" than you'd normally get from these markets (they're paying out some capital growth as income).

A key feature of investment trusts is that they can hold back dividends for future distribution (open-Ended funds can't do this). The dividends paid by many income focused open-Ended funds have been cut as a result of many UK companies cutting their dividends. In contrast ITs have generally maintained their dividends


Great post - and just the sort of stuff income-seekers need to be thinking about to help avoid the sort of single-market risk that we've seen in recent months..

As someone who's tended to concentrate on the purer type of 'income-IT's' in recent years, I'm now beginning to look at some of the more 'growthier' ones that have a remit of paying out some of their capital growth in the form of dividends, as it seems to me that they might well deliver another leg of the 'diversification-stool' that we're looking for to help deliver a smooth and reliable income stream from our investments.

If some of those delivered-dividends need to come from realised capital gains within those IT's then it suits me to pay IT-managers to both look for and then fulfil those types of investment requirements whilst I can get on with doing other stuff, and given that we can look for these types of income-delivering IT's within the types of sectors and geographical boundaries that we might be looking for to help provide additional diversification too, then I do think that they'll neatly slot into my overall strategy as it stands, without too much hassle at all.

The income-investment market has clearly continued to evolve since the original HYP idea was rolled out, and flexible income-seekers now have many more paths available to them than were available 20 years ago...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#337909

Postby Darka » September 3rd, 2020, 12:37 pm

Great post.
I've also been moving over to IT's, I enjoyed learning about investing by using a HYP but it's too volatile for me and too many risks of dividend cuts.

As I approach retirement, I very much prefer higher levels of diversification than a HYP can typically produce and in most cases IT's produce more stable dividends and higher share price growth.

My investments in VOD, LLOY (sold), HSBC (sold) and many others have been terrible and I'd have been better of in almost anything...

So, am considering selling some more duds, VOD, SLA, and one which has done well Pennon (PNN) but who's dividend yield has dropped to a low of about 2.6% today - I can reinvest the money from PNN in IT's yielding 5%+ with less risk, more diversification and of course more income.

Especially as PNN is about to do a return of capital anyway (depending on what they decide to do) and my case for investing in them going forward has reduced with their recent sale of Viridor.

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#337910

Postby TUK020 » September 3rd, 2020, 12:41 pm

SalvorHardin wrote: Here are a few ideas that might be of interest for those HYPers who aren’t so dogmatic.


Thank you Salvor, I think Aunt Agatha would be comfortable with your suggestions :-)

I have 20+% of my portfolio in high yield ITs, and this proportion is growing over time (mostly reinvesting divis from the single stocks).
CTY, HFEL, MYI, HICL larger stakes.
Smaller positions in LWDB, MRCH, TMPL, JETI

I have <10% of my portfolio in a selection of lower yielding, hopefully higher growth, ITs to shore up the capital value for the longer term
FCIT, ATST, WTAN, SMT, MNKS, CLDN, RCP

I expect over time that my portfolio will gradually shift emphasis towards ITs as I believe these will be more conducive to benign neglect, a process that I have dubbed "my long term gaga plan".

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#337913

Postby Charlottesquare » September 3rd, 2020, 12:57 pm

Excellent post, thanks.

Whilst I will draw the line at directly holding your overseas share suggestions (Although I do hold Berkshire ,no tax complications as does not pay dividends) I already have exposure to most of your IT suggestions but had not stumbled upon Law Debenture so will now take a look, but I tend to only get to purchase once a quarter so will likely need to wait until December as I committed my spare cash this morning to more European Assets Trust shares and more Shell shares ( chasing even more foreign denominated earnings as the trade talks with the EU appear to be slowly dying)

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#337932

Postby Wizard » September 3rd, 2020, 2:55 pm

SalvorHardin wrote:miner1000 recently asked “Where Are The Ideas?” on HYP-Practical. Unfortunately HYP-P doesn’t want any ideas that do not meet strict rules...

A quality post, as you say we are unlikely to ever see similar posted on HYP-P. I have never used the 'thumbs up' function on TLF before as it seems muddled between recommendation and thanks. But your post is worthy of both in spades, so I have used it for the very first time on your post!

I had looked at Kraft-Heinz a couple of years back but did nothing about it then, but thank you for reminding me as it is well worth looking at again. A few months ago I bought some Coca Cola shares, I wondered if you had any view on those. Lower yield than Kraft, but as they are in my SIPP no WHT to worry about so a similar yield to Unilever.

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338085

Postby monabri » September 4th, 2020, 12:39 pm

Darka wrote:

So, am considering selling some more duds, VOD, SLA, and one which has done well Pennon (PNN) but who's dividend yield has dropped to a low of about 2.6% today - I can reinvest the money from PNN in IT's yielding 5%+ with less risk, more diversification and of course more income.

Especially as PNN is about to do a return of capital anyway (depending on what they decide to do) and my case for investing in them going forward has reduced with their recent sale of Viridor.


And I've just done exactly the same ( PNN sold for a LWDB top up) for all the same reasons and I'm also concerned that OFWAT will keep on screwing the margins down such that the utilities become like construction companies ( low, no margin).....all in Joe Public's interest, of course, better value for the consumer argument.

Has there been any discussion on Private Equity funds for income ( eg Princes Private Equity...). I've a small holding in PEYS (Sterling version of PEY) and Standard Life PE (SLPE).

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... ldings-gbp

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... ty-tst-ord

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338094

Postby Dod101 » September 4th, 2020, 1:08 pm

I totally agree with SalvorHardin's post which is hardly surprising as I hold all of his suggestions except for Law Debenture and KraftHeinz. The result is that I have had only one major cancellation, at least as a result of Covid and that was HSBC. Like many others I have of course suffered with Imperial Brands and Shell.

I think we need to get away from the straitjacket of the classic HYP, which, as I have said many times seems to have had its day.

Dod

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338163

Postby Arborbridge » September 4th, 2020, 6:45 pm

Very good post, and I too can claim a holding in some of those, namely MYI, Law Deb, HFEL - plus a number of other ITs.

Excellent suggestions all, but they don't really answer the question put by Miner 1000: what HYP shares should we be looking at in areas which might develop in the coming years? Perhaps the answer is: there are none! - with the exception of ULVR.

Maybe this also shows what a terrible outlook there is for the UK economy post Brexit, made worse by Covid.

Arb.

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338186

Postby Dod101 » September 4th, 2020, 8:09 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Very good post, and I too can claim a holding in some of those, namely MYI, Law Deb, HFEL - plus a number of other ITs.

Excellent suggestions all, but they don't really answer the question put by Miner 1000: what HYP shares should we be looking at in areas which might develop in the coming years? Perhaps the answer is: there are none! - with the exception of ULVR.

Maybe this also shows what a terrible outlook there is for the UK economy post Brexit, made worse by Covid.

Arb.


Yes it is a pretty depressing picture although I have just been reading about the sticking points on the EU negotiations which are of course off topic but nevertheless they appear to be less about fishing quotas and much more about State Aid rules. Boris is said to be well aware of the need for the State to help with the establishment of hitech companies but if we were to continue living with the EU State Aid rules apparently we could not promote and help new hitech companies.

None though would qualify in any sense as a HYP share which require by definition to be high yield. New tech companies for instance are simply not that. I am afraid that we are down to companies investing in renewables for instance and holding on to the usual suspects with a wing and a prayer. There is though more to the UK economy in general, than just a few normally high yielding companies, which is just as well.

Dod

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338219

Postby Charlottesquare » September 4th, 2020, 10:47 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Very good post, and I too can claim a holding in some of those, namely MYI, Law Deb, HFEL - plus a number of other ITs.

Excellent suggestions all, but they don't really answer the question put by Miner 1000: what HYP shares should we be looking at in areas which might develop in the coming years? Perhaps the answer is: there are none! - with the exception of ULVR.

Maybe this also shows what a terrible outlook there is for the UK economy post Brexit, made worse by Covid.

Arb.


Yes it is a pretty depressing picture although I have just been reading about the sticking points on the EU negotiations which are of course off topic but nevertheless they appear to be less about fishing quotas and much more about State Aid rules. Boris is said to be well aware of the need for the State to help with the establishment of hitech companies but if we were to continue living with the EU State Aid rules apparently we could not promote and help new hitech companies.

None though would qualify in any sense as a HYP share which require by definition to be high yield. New tech companies for instance are simply not that. I am afraid that we are down to companies investing in renewables for instance and holding on to the usual suspects with a wing and a prayer. There is though more to the UK economy in general, than just a few normally high yielding companies, which is just as well.

Dod


Of course if we strip out property and utilities a lot of FTSE100 companies with high yields have not got that much to do with the UK economy in the first place.

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338238

Postby SalvorHardin » September 5th, 2020, 8:02 am

A few replies, thanks for the recs and the kind remarks. Whilst miner1000 did pose a few more questions, those were outside the scope of HYP (e.g. US technology shares). I limited my reply to HYP-General candidates.

I don’t own everything that I mentioned. A lot of shares appear on my radar and the post featured some of the higher yielding ones that HYP-General investors might like to know about. One such is KraftHeinz. I used to own Kraft but when Kraft split into KraftFoods and Mondelez International I went with Mondelez (1.8% yield, it’s where Cadbury ended up).

I’ve kept an eye on KraftHeinz ever since it hit the headlines by writing off $15.4 billion in respect of the Kraft and Oscar Meyer brands in February 2019 (its shares having peaked at almost $97 now trade at $33.47). However, whenever I have some money looking to invest something else has appeared. Not being a HYP investor I have a much larger investment universe to consider. For example, my most recent purchase was Ocean Wilsons Holdings, yielding 3.4% (Bermudan investment company).

KraftHeinz is a great example of a company quoted overseas which doesn’t have a close British counterpart. If KraftHeinz was quoted in the UK it would almost certainly be a staple of many HYP-P portfolios.

Coca-Cola. I don’t follow these, asides from the snippets I get from the Motley Fool’s Berkshire Hathaway board. Coca-Cola is a great example of a company with several of Warren Buffett’s moats, such as a strong brand and distribution network, but changing consumer tastes such as the shift away from sugary drinks have somewhat weakened these moats in recent years.

Law Debenture. Edison did a write up on Law Debenture in August 2020. It is available as a PDF (no need to register). Linked below:

https://www.investegate.co.uk/law-debenture-corp/rns/replacement---edison-review-on-the-law-debenture/202008101310166790V/

https://www.edisongroup.com/publication/proof-of-proposition-in-challenging-h120-2/27442/

Edison also covers Henderson Far East Income. It’s most recent report was January 2020

https://www.edisongroup.com/company/henderson-far-east-income/1839/

Good luck!

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338248

Postby Wizard » September 5th, 2020, 8:58 am

Arborbridge wrote:Very good post, and I too can claim a holding in some of those, namely MYI, Law Deb, HFEL - plus a number of other ITs.

Excellent suggestions all, but they don't really answer the question put by Miner 1000: what HYP shares should we be looking at in areas which might develop in the coming years? Perhaps the answer is: there are none! - with the exception of ULVR.

Maybe this also shows what a terrible outlook there is for the UK economy post Brexit, made worse by Covid.

Arb.

My bold.

I don't think that is an issue with the OP, but rather the question Miner asked and/or the choice of where the question was posted. The type of shares Miner is looking for simply would not qualify as HYP, by definition HYP is about income now and in the near term, so anyone discussing those shares would quickly be told to get off HYP. The underlying point in his post (intended or otherwise) is to explore growth shares that do not currently qualify as HYP now, but may generate substantial income in the future. Indeed, given the shares he is in search of will not have a high yield now, even this board is not the place for the question he poses IMHO.

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338250

Postby shetland » September 5th, 2020, 9:03 am

I am always surprised that Chesnara does not get a mention. Dividend has increased every year for the last 15 years. Business will be unaffected by Brexit. Currently yielding 7.54%

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338252

Postby Arborbridge » September 5th, 2020, 9:09 am

Wizard wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Very good post, and I too can claim a holding in some of those, namely MYI, Law Deb, HFEL - plus a number of other ITs.

Excellent suggestions all, but they don't really answer the question put by Miner 1000: what HYP shares should we be looking at in areas which might develop in the coming years? Perhaps the answer is: there are none! - with the exception of ULVR.

Maybe this also shows what a terrible outlook there is for the UK economy post Brexit, made worse by Covid.

Arb.

My bold.

I don't think that is an issue with the OP, but rather the question Miner asked and/or the choice of where the question was posted. The type of shares Miner is looking for simply would not qualify as HYP, by definition HYP is about income now and in the near term, so anyone discussing those shares would quickly be told to get off HYP. The underlying point in his post (intended or otherwise) is to explore growth shares that do not currently qualify as HYP now, but may generate substantial income in the future. Indeed, given the shares he is in search of will not have a high yield now, even this board is not the place for the question he poses IMHO.


That's only your interpretation. He is an established HYPer and in my view what he was asking for was a discussion on which areas we should be looking at for future holdings and whether we ought to shift focus from the old faithfuls and look for something to cope better with the "new normal".

If you are right and they don't qualify for HYP, he wouldn't be interested anyway (as he wrote, he doesn't bother with other boards much, if at all), so I doubt he was asking for an exploration of low yielding foreign growth shares, for example.

Arb.

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338253

Postby Arborbridge » September 5th, 2020, 9:10 am

shetland wrote:I am always surprised that Chesnara does not get a mention. Dividend has increased every year for the last 15 years. Business will be unaffected by Brexit. Currently yielding 7.54%


Indeed, Dod does mention them, and I have a biggish holding. So they come up from time to time - not often, I grant you.

Arb.

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338257

Postby dealtn » September 5th, 2020, 9:18 am

Arborbridge wrote:That's only your interpretation. He is an established HYPer and in my view what he was asking for was a discussion on which areas we should be looking at for future holdings and whether we ought to shift focus from the old faithfuls and look for something to cope better with the "new normal".

If you are right and they don't qualify for HYP, he wouldn't be interested anyway (as he wrote, he doesn't bother with other boards much, if at all), so I doubt he was asking for an exploration of low yielding foreign growth shares, for example.

Arb.


miner1000 wrote:Should we be buying US tech stocks? Should we be investing in emerging markets?

Anyone out there got any gems of wisdom? The other stuff going on at the moment is just not grabbing me.

Miner


Odd thing to ask on HYP Practical if he wasn't "interested anyway". He has asked the questions(s) on that Board, as he admits it is the only Board he uses, but they are clearly off-topic, and furthermore those who might be best placed to answer questions on such investments wouldn't be amongst the natural audience.

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338259

Postby Dod101 » September 5th, 2020, 9:26 am

shetland wrote:I am always surprised that Chesnara does not get a mention. Dividend has increased every year for the last 15 years. Business will be unaffected by Brexit. Currently yielding 7.54%


Clearly you have not been paying attention. I have held them for about the last ten years or so and mention them from time to time. Like many higher(er) yielders though they do not do a lot on the capital front, but that applies to all the life companies at the moment.

Dod

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Re: Here Are Some Ideas

#338262

Postby Wizard » September 5th, 2020, 9:33 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Wizard wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Very good post, and I too can claim a holding in some of those, namely MYI, Law Deb, HFEL - plus a number of other ITs.

Excellent suggestions all, but they don't really answer the question put by Miner 1000: what HYP shares should we be looking at in areas which might develop in the coming years? Perhaps the answer is: there are none! - with the exception of ULVR.

Maybe this also shows what a terrible outlook there is for the UK economy post Brexit, made worse by Covid.

Arb.

My bold.

I don't think that is an issue with the OP, but rather the question Miner asked and/or the choice of where the question was posted. The type of shares Miner is looking for simply would not qualify as HYP, by definition HYP is about income now and in the near term, so anyone discussing those shares would quickly be told to get off HYP. The underlying point in his post (intended or otherwise) is to explore growth shares that do not currently qualify as HYP now, but may generate substantial income in the future. Indeed, given the shares he is in search of will not have a high yield now, even this board is not the place for the question he poses IMHO.


That's only your interpretation. He is an established HYPer and in my view what he was asking for was a discussion on which areas we should be looking at for future holdings and whether we ought to shift focus from the old faithfuls and look for something to cope better with the "new normal".

If you are right and they don't qualify for HYP, he wouldn't be interested anyway (as he wrote, he doesn't bother with other boards much, if at all), so I doubt he was asking for an exploration of low yielding foreign growth shares, for example.


Arb.


My bold.
It's almost like you haven't actually read his post, which included...
miner1000 wrote:...Should we be buying US tech stocks? Should we be investing in emerging markets?...


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