Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

General discussions about equity high-yield income strategies
Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10367
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424493

Postby Arborbridge » July 3rd, 2021, 5:22 pm

Here is my latest comparison between my three income streams: HYP, income ITs and income OEICS.

Image

It is evident that the HYP income is making a comeback, the IT income tailing just a fraction, and the OEIC income has dropped considerably.

The chart shows the income provided by £100 of units in each portfolio as though purchased on the same date in 2011.


Arb.

88V8
Lemon Half
Posts: 5769
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:22 am
Has thanked: 4097 times
Been thanked: 2560 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424637

Postby 88V8 » July 4th, 2021, 11:39 am

Your OEICs have always been a bit hoppity skip.
Does that bother you? They seem more yieldy...

So, for understanding, the entire portfolio is back-projected as if bought in 2011?

V8

Alaric
Lemon Half
Posts: 6032
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:05 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 1398 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424643

Postby Alaric » July 4th, 2021, 11:51 am

Arborbridge wrote:It is evident that the HYP income is making a comeback, the IT income tailing just a fraction, and the OEIC income has dropped considerably.


There would be a built in delay on OEICs between the receipt or non-receipt of dividends and their distribution. Reading the small print on distribution dates against reporting periods would be necessary to establish how much lag was actually present.

It does seem as though a number of Companies that cancelled their 2020 dividends have quietly reinstated them.

moorfield
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3523
Joined: November 7th, 2016, 1:56 pm
Has thanked: 1546 times
Been thanked: 1402 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424666

Postby moorfield » July 4th, 2021, 12:55 pm

The ARbIT line on your chart raises the perennial question:

Why bother with a HYP ?

88V8
Lemon Half
Posts: 5769
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:22 am
Has thanked: 4097 times
Been thanked: 2560 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424702

Postby 88V8 » July 4th, 2021, 3:52 pm

moorfield wrote:The ARbIT line on your chart raises the perennial question:
Why bother with a HYP ?

And the perennial answer, a chap needs a hobby :)
And for many of us, an HYP was our entree to income investing, and we don't like to jettison an old friend.

V8

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1584
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 672 times
Been thanked: 479 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424716

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » July 4th, 2021, 4:54 pm

Thanks for sharing, it's always interesting to see.

I note the IT dividend per unit has trailed off and slipped slightly in recent years. Have you actually had ITs with dividend cuts, then? Or is there something else at work?

Best wishes

Mark.

moorfield
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3523
Joined: November 7th, 2016, 1:56 pm
Has thanked: 1546 times
Been thanked: 1402 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424748

Postby moorfield » July 4th, 2021, 6:10 pm

88V8 wrote:And the perennial answer, a chap needs a hobby :)


I suspect you might be not too far off the mark with regard to many chaps and chapesses who frequent these parts!

monabri
Lemon Half
Posts: 8396
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 1539 times
Been thanked: 3428 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424786

Postby monabri » July 4th, 2021, 8:30 pm

ADrunkenMarcus wrote:Thanks for sharing, it's always interesting to see.

I note the IT dividend per unit has trailed off and slipped slightly in recent years. Have you actually had ITs with dividend cuts, then? Or is there something else at work?

Best wishes

Mark.


I noticed that too! - could one possibility be that Arb has been adding ITs with lower yields, dragging the dividend/unit calculation down?

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1584
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 672 times
Been thanked: 479 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424803

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » July 4th, 2021, 9:20 pm

monabri wrote:I noticed that too! - could one possibility be that Arb has been adding ITs with lower yields, dragging the dividend/unit calculation down?


Could well be.

I had to explain this to someone with my dividend growth portfolio. It is unitised, which adjusts for new capital, but the dividend per unit has been diluted because I have added substantial new units with much lower yields than the rest of the portfolio. The result was to dilute the dividend per unit by the order of ten percent or so! It is a high yield strategy, but in the sense of obtaining a higher yield on cost over time through higher dividend growth over a long period.

Best wishes


Mark.

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10367
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424846

Postby Arborbridge » July 5th, 2021, 7:23 am

88V8 wrote:Your OEICs have always been a bit hoppity skip.
Does that bother you? They seem more yieldy...

So, for understanding, the entire portfolio is back-projected as if bought in 2011?

V8


Not back- projected, if by that you mean "theoretical" and retrospective - these are results from income at the time in real time from real portfolios. I display the results from 2011 only because that's the first date when all streams were not only up and running, but being recorded in the same manner. As my HYP was unitised from Jan 2010, that's pretty much back to the beginning of the experiment.

Arb.

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10367
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424849

Postby Arborbridge » July 5th, 2021, 7:32 am

moorfield wrote:The ARbIT line on your chart raises the perennial question:

Why bother with a HYP ?


Indeed. Because it's there!
But seriously, the IT stream has become relatively larger as a contributor to my overall income (deliberately) but dismantling the whole HYP is not something I'd contemplate immediately. I'm all for evolution, not revolution, and particularly at this time, wouldn't it be interesting to see what the speed of recovery of the HYP is compared with what may happen to the IT and OEIC stream?

I am tempted to shut down the OEICs stream entirely because who wants such a big collapse in income?, but the same point arises: I'm intrigued to discover whether that OEIC income will recovery quickly.

It seems more interesting to see what happens next given this unusual opportunity.

Arb.

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10367
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#424850

Postby Arborbridge » July 5th, 2021, 7:49 am

monabri wrote:
ADrunkenMarcus wrote:Thanks for sharing, it's always interesting to see.

I note the IT dividend per unit has trailed off and slipped slightly in recent years. Have you actually had ITs with dividend cuts, then? Or is there something else at work?

Best wishes

Mark.


I noticed that too! - could one possibility be that Arb has been adding ITs with lower yields, dragging the dividend/unit calculation down?


That's probably the answer - although I hadn't been conscious of it at the time. In the past year the only topup above the average yield was Murray International. We've had PLI turn into MUT which may have reduced the take (not sure) and a small addition in HINT. Others topped up below average yield were SOI, JEMI,JETI,JAGI (recent new holding) MRC, LWDB.
You can see that the foreigners were topped up at the expense of UK only stock, reflecting my view of the world economy. LWDB was topped up due to it's yield being high for it, and MRC receives an extra dose now and again as I like its long term TR and also its share picking process - as well as choosing shares from outside the usual pool givin diversity.

This all adds to the notion that one cannot come to firm conclusions with a living portfolio because they do evolve according to one's personal views over time. Such real life experiments can only ever be "interesting" rather than decisive unless the process is so rigid that no individual would tolerate putting his life savings into them.

Arb.

tjh290633
Lemon Half
Posts: 8208
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:20 am
Has thanked: 913 times
Been thanked: 4096 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#425043

Postby tjh290633 » July 5th, 2021, 6:22 pm

Arborbridge wrote:I am tempted to shut down the OEICs stream entirely because who wants such a big collapse in income?, but the same point arises: I'm intrigued to discover whether that OEIC income will recovery quickly.

It seems more interesting to see what happens next given this unusual opportunity.

Arb.

Looking back at my holding of M&G Dividend Fund/OEIC, the turn of the century may give some clues.

Dividends in 2000: Int 0.85p, Final 1.296p, Total 2.146p
Dividends in 2001: Int 0.75p, Final 1.142p, Total 1.892p
Dividends in 2002: Int 0.544p, Final 0.645p, Total 1.19p
Dividends in 2003: Int 0.78p, Final 1.2p, Total 1.98p
Dividends in 2004: Int 0.82p, Final 1.27p, Total 2.09p
Dividends in 2005: Int 0.86p, Final 1.395p, Total 2.26p

So that took 5 years to recover.

I've held them since 1975, so there are more periods to look at if you wish.

TJH

NotSure
Lemon Slice
Posts: 916
Joined: February 5th, 2021, 4:45 pm
Has thanked: 679 times
Been thanked: 314 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#425089

Postby NotSure » July 5th, 2021, 9:18 pm

moorfield wrote:The ARbIT line on your chart raises the perennial question:

Why bother with a HYP ?


Hard to say for sure, but it looks like HYP has delivered more income in all but about 6 quarters. Had that 'excess' income been reinvested (like a 'DIY' IT) I would guess the larger portfolio that would resullt might have riden out the Covid slump?

Be interesting to see a plot comparing the present (real) value of accumulated income of the three strategies, but eyeballing it, I would say OEIC, then HYP and bottom would be IT?

moorfield
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3523
Joined: November 7th, 2016, 1:56 pm
Has thanked: 1546 times
Been thanked: 1402 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#425098

Postby moorfield » July 5th, 2021, 10:10 pm

NotSure wrote:
moorfield wrote:The ARbIT line on your chart raises the perennial question:

Why bother with a HYP ?


Hard to say for sure, but it looks like HYP has delivered more income in all but about 6 quarters. Had that 'excess' income been reinvested (like a 'DIY' IT) I would guess the larger portfolio that would resullt might have riden out the Covid slump?



But not spectacularly (my view, moot of course!), and now look where it is.

Enough of an income difference to warrant the pfaff of running an HYP? Or to put the question differently: what financial objective is ArbHYP fulfilling that ArbIT isn't? The answer to that would be most instructive to would-be HYPsters I think.

tjh290633
Lemon Half
Posts: 8208
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:20 am
Has thanked: 913 times
Been thanked: 4096 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#425109

Postby tjh290633 » July 5th, 2021, 11:10 pm

moorfield wrote:Enough of an income difference to warrant the pfaff of running an HYP? Or to put the question differently: what financial objective is ArbHYP fulfilling that ArbIT isn't? The answer to that would be most instructive to would-be HYPsters I think.

Is there any more of a pfaff running an HYP than any other portfolio which is not wholly passive?

The objective of an HYP is to deliver a high and growing flow of dividends. Quite a lot of ITs deliver one but not both of these objectives. Luni's B7 and B8 attempted to do both. I have a comparison with HYP1 of dividend income which was posted on TMF:

Year to    HYP1       B15+       B7         B8      
Nov. 12*

2000
2001 3,451 2,285 2,073 2,462
2002 3,474 2,385 2,185 2,525
2003 3,197 2,470 2,278 2,601
2004 3,205 2,578 2,406 2,694
2005 3,546 2,745 2,606 2,838
2006 4,131 2,972 2,766 3,113
2007 4,452 3,392 3,151 3,448
2008 5,040 3,720 3,587 3,700
2009 3,187 3,871 3,812 3,797
2010 3,297 3,959 4,024 3,916
2011 3,843 4,108 4,208 4,042

TOTALS 40,823 34,486 33,094 35,135
* or nearest previous trading day

http://boards.fool.co.uk/baskets-and-hy ... 09151.aspx was the origin of that table. I think that it was posted by Luni. He probably has posted more recent versions of that table here. That covers the dreaded 2008 crash, of course. It might be instructive to compare Arbit with recent figures.

TJH

monabri
Lemon Half
Posts: 8396
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 1539 times
Been thanked: 3428 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#425119

Postby monabri » July 6th, 2021, 12:20 am

tjh290633 wrote:
Year to    HYP1       B15+       B7         B8      
Nov. 12*

2000
2001 3,451 2,285 2,073 2,462
2002 3,474 2,385 2,185 2,525
2003 3,197 2,470 2,278 2,601
2004 3,205 2,578 2,406 2,694
2005 3,546 2,745 2,606 2,838
2006 4,131 2,972 2,766 3,113
2007 4,452 3,392 3,151 3,448
2008 5,040 3,720 3,587 3,700
2009 3,187 3,871 3,812 3,797
2010 3,297 3,959 4,024 3,916
2011 3,843 4,108 4,208 4,042

TOTALS 40,823 34,486 33,094 35,135
* or nearest previous trading day

http://boards.fool.co.uk/baskets-and-hy ... 09151.aspx was the origin of that table. I think that it was posted by Luni. He probably has posted more recent versions of that table here. That covers the dreaded 2008 crash, of course. It might be instructive to compare Arbit with recent figures.

TJH


The incomes from HYP01, HYP06,, B7,8,C5, G10 to year 2019 summarised here -

viewtopic.php?p=281496#p281496

Recently L'Uni updated info on G10

viewtopic.php?p=423161#p423161

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10367
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#425152

Postby Arborbridge » July 6th, 2021, 9:11 am

NotSure wrote:
moorfield wrote:The ARbIT line on your chart raises the perennial question:

Why bother with a HYP ?


Hard to say for sure, but it looks like HYP has delivered more income in all but about 6 quarters. Had that 'excess' income been reinvested (like a 'DIY' IT) I would guess the larger portfolio that would resullt might have riden out the Covid slump?

Be interesting to see a plot comparing the present (real) value of accumulated income of the three strategies, but eyeballing it, I would say OEIC, then HYP and bottom would be IT?


I hope this is what you are asking for (though not corrected for inflation which is common to all three streams). Each point on my chart was the accumulated of the previous four quarters: i.e. a year's income.
For the table below, I have taken the income point at each December (giving the previous year's income) and totalled each column. The exception is the final number before the addition: as this is the annual income to June 2021, I've halved it to give six month's income.



Surprisingly, the OEICs look better on this view. The interesting in this never ending story comes from finding out what happens next......


Arb.

NotSure
Lemon Slice
Posts: 916
Joined: February 5th, 2021, 4:45 pm
Has thanked: 679 times
Been thanked: 314 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#425196

Postby NotSure » July 6th, 2021, 11:37 am

moorfield wrote:
NotSure wrote:
moorfield wrote:The ARbIT line on your chart raises the perennial question:

Why bother with a HYP ?


Hard to say for sure, but it looks like HYP has delivered more income in all but about 6 quarters. Had that 'excess' income been reinvested (like a 'DIY' IT) I would guess the larger portfolio that would resullt might have riden out the Covid slump?



But not spectacularly (my view, moot of course!), and now look where it is.

Enough of an income difference to warrant the pfaff of running an HYP? Or to put the question differently: what financial objective is ArbHYP fulfilling that ArbIT isn't? The answer to that would be most instructive to would-be HYPsters I think.


My view is even more moot - I mainly stick to passive investments, so even ITs are a bit beyond me, and I would not dream of trying to run a portfolio of HY shares.

It just seemed to me that many were really down on the HYP (and OEIC), while from a glance at the chart provided, it seemed to have provided more income over the period concerned, albeit with an unpleasant amount of volatility. It just wasn't a clean cut 'IT wins hands down', which is the impression I would have received without studying the chart.

Not so relevant to this board (but not entirely irrelevant as ITs are discussed here) is the capital performance (ITs can, I believe, generate yield from TR, not just pass on their dividends received). This is missing from the charts and may tell another story?

But to answer your question, if looking for reasonable, steady income with minimal hassle, then the IT basket would be the clear winner.

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10367
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: Arbit, HYP and OEICS 2021 Q2

#425208

Postby Arborbridge » July 6th, 2021, 12:05 pm

NotSure wrote:
moorfield wrote:
NotSure wrote:
Hard to say for sure, but it looks like HYP has delivered more income in all but about 6 quarters. Had that 'excess' income been reinvested (like a 'DIY' IT) I would guess the larger portfolio that would resullt might have riden out the Covid slump?



But not spectacularly (my view, moot of course!), and now look where it is.

Enough of an income difference to warrant the pfaff of running an HYP? Or to put the question differently: what financial objective is ArbHYP fulfilling that ArbIT isn't? The answer to that would be most instructive to would-be HYPsters I think.


My view is even more moot - I mainly stick to passive investments, so even ITs are a bit beyond me, and I would not dream of trying to run a portfolio of HY shares.

It just seemed to me that many were really down on the HYP (and OEIC), while from a glance at the chart provided, it seemed to have provided more income over the period concerned, albeit with an unpleasant amount of volatility. It just wasn't a clean cut 'IT wins hands down', which is the impression I would have received without studying the chart.

Not so relevant to this board (but not entirely irrelevant as ITs are discussed here) is the capital performance (ITs can, I believe, generate yield from TR, not just pass on their dividends received). This is missing from the charts and may tell another story?

But to answer your question, if looking for reasonable, steady income with minimal hassle, then the IT basket would be the clear winner.


This may be what you are looking for. It shows the asset unit price of each basket of shares or funds. This is with income taken out, not compounded. Clearly, the HYP price has sufferred, particularly since the referendum on Brexit. The ITs and OEICS have benefitted from a greater overseas content during that period. This was a deliberate choice on my part as an insurance policy which did rather ruin the purity (if any!) of the experiment to compare. Real life getting in the way of a good idea.

Image

PS bear in mind the target for HYP is only this: a high and rising income with a chance of capital appreciation.


Return to “High Yield Shares & Strategies - General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 5 guests