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HYP Concept waning?

General discussions about equity high-yield income strategies
seagles
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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439181

Postby seagles » September 2nd, 2021, 10:47 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Wizard wrote:
seagles wrote:I hope that is not personal as I have just posted "my hyp as it stands". I rarely post now, although HYPP still shows as my number one forum. I do feel that there is less that draws me there, although I do read it most days. However, I do like seeing and comparing other people's HYP, to me it is its "one" major reason to view it. Like others though the continual links to company news is, IMO, irrelevant because if anyone is interested they would already "read" that forum. To me the one major downside to HYPP is the constant hijacking by those who seem to be anti-hyp. Why not stop posting there and use HYPSS for your narrative (post a link if you want to), where I do find some of the discussions interesting.

Absolutely nothing personal. But your post is illustrative as it has had no replies. There were replies to JohnnyCyclops' recent portfolio update, but that was a rather unusual situation. That said, I would argue mine were possibly the most substantive replies in terms of content and I am not an HYPer - and it seems my reward for trying to start a discussion was for one person to post a personal attack.

I completely agree on the duplication of Company News posts, but that has been debated before and it was concluded as OK by the Mods. That is one of the reasons the post count for HYPP is still high, another is that there have always been a fair few "I agree with [insert name]" posts or posts telling everyone another post has been rec'ed, which add volume but no intellectually meaningful comment.


Actually, it is fairly normal that when someone posts a report, there are few replies. That doesn't necessarily indicate a lack of interest and they have sometimes achieve a reasonable number of "likes" and views. The point is, that there is rarely anything one can say about a report unless there is something unusual about it. The fact is that HYPs are more or less routine and uncontroversial - at least to other HYPers, so what can one say?- most responses would be a simple "well done" or "that's similar to mine".
Occcasionally, someone spots an error or something which could be changed (Gengulphus being particularly valuable in that respect), but most of us know the ropes by now so there's not much variation.
Reports are mainly in the spirit of transparency to show how we've arrived at conclusions - not usually a debating subject.

Arb.


164 views, so far. Not a lot but that is not the point. There is nothing in my post that I would expect a reply about. However, the 12 recs means a lot to me. It means the post was appreciated. Of those 12 there were a few of the regular HYP posters but the majority are, what I would call "lurkers". I am one poster who does not post to gain notoriety I post to pass on information and hope it helps everyone. If I have nothing to add I do not reply.

Similar results to my last full portfolio review post in April. 2395 views, 5 recs, 5 additional posts but all about me being a Grandad and diverting money to Granddaughter going forward (or similar), non about the actual portfolio. Does the lack of posts bother me, no, I post to hopefully help others and show the direction I am going. Currently moving more into Growth IT's, BTW.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439187

Postby Arborbridge » September 2nd, 2021, 11:11 am

vrdiver wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
Wizard wrote:PS I do find likening other contributors to the Taliban in rather bad taste. Would you like being labelled as ISIS-HYP? Didn’t think so.

Perhaps "Continuity HYP" and "Provisional HYP" would be better.

TJH

You're all heretics.

And don't get me started on the people's Front of HYP!

VRD (Real-HYP)


I think that's wide of the mark, actually. Most of the HYP contributors are quite happy to let others do there own thing without dictating to them. I've often acknowledged that if I was pot building, I would probably not have a HYP - I'd go with some of the ITs or ETFs which are clearly winners for growth. TJH is convinced his method is one of the best for pot building, but even he is completely relaxed about people finding their own way using whatever methods they like.

At present, I can only remember one particular poster who has been fairly aggressive in the rigid principle of HYP and applying some degree of sarcasm to those who wander. So if there's a Peoples' Front, it has one member, so it's the Person's Front :) All the rest of us are pretty sanguine about investment styles and have often said so.

Arb.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439193

Postby Alaric » September 2nd, 2021, 11:20 am

Arborbridge wrote: I can only remember one particular poster who has been fairly aggressive in the rigid principle of HYP and applying some degree of sarcasm to those who wander.


pyad himself on his rare visits comes across as dogmatic and condescending towards critical comment.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439204

Postby Arborbridge » September 2nd, 2021, 11:45 am

Alaric wrote:
Arborbridge wrote: I can only remember one particular poster who has been fairly aggressive in the rigid principle of HYP and applying some degree of sarcasm to those who wander.


pyad himself on his rare visits comes across as dogmatic and condescending towards critical comment.


He's allowed: it was his baby. :lol: Though, to be fair, he has been flexible over the years at various points, starting with reluctantly allowing sales which were not purely market trading. The latest, I think was over MNG not having a long history of dividends.
I'd say he is firm or assured, rather than aggressive as one of his acolytes became, who no longer contributes AFAIK.

So, anyhow, you make that two, I, one :)

Arb.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439225

Postby moorfield » September 2nd, 2021, 12:32 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Alaric wrote:
Arborbridge wrote: I can only remember one particular poster who has been fairly aggressive in the rigid principle of HYP and applying some degree of sarcasm to those who wander.


pyad himself on his rare visits comes across as dogmatic and condescending towards critical comment.


He's allowed: it was his baby. :lol: Though, to be fair, he has been flexible over the years at various points, starting with reluctantly allowing sales which were not purely market trading. The latest, I think was over MNG not having a long history of dividends.
I'd say he is firm or assured, rather than aggressive as one of his acolytes became, who no longer contributes AFAIK.

So, anyhow, you make that two, I, one :)

Arb.



But to be clear that one particular poster cannot be accused of being "anti-HYP", can they? Yet they were regularly accused ofheavily implied to be a "naysayer" by another particular poster! (I have crossed that out and reworded it as I am not 100% sure whether names were ever named, and of course I am not privy to any of their reports to Mods, I would have to go hunting through posts which I don't have time to do.)

It was the tone and manner of that particular poster's delivery that was the issue I think, not the message.

As for pyad, only he can opine on whether Lemonfool has misappropriated what he meant by HYP all those years ago.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439231

Postby Arborbridge » September 2nd, 2021, 12:41 pm

moorfield wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
Alaric wrote:
pyad himself on his rare visits comes across as dogmatic and condescending towards critical comment.


He's allowed: it was his baby. :lol: Though, to be fair, he has been flexible over the years at various points, starting with reluctantly allowing sales which were not purely market trading. The latest, I think was over MNG not having a long history of dividends.
I'd say he is firm or assured, rather than aggressive as one of his acolytes became, who no longer contributes AFAIK.

So, anyhow, you make that two, I, one :)

Arb.



But to be clear that one particular poster cannot be accused of being "anti-HYP", can they? Yet they were regularly accused ofheavily implied to be a "naysayer" by another particular poster! (I have crossed that out and reworded it as I am not 100% sure whether names were ever named, and of course I am not privy to any of their reports to Mods, I would have to go hunting through posts which I don't have time to do.)

It was the tone and manner of that particular poster's delivery that was the issue I think, not the message.

As for pyad, only he can opine on whether Lemonfool has misappropriated what he meant by HYP all those years ago.


Agreed.
But to be clear that one particular poster cannot be accused of being "anti-HYP", can they?
I thought we were looking for proHYP candidates for the Peoples Front of HYP? That's why I mentioned the person-we-both-have-in-mind-who-hasn't-posted-lately ;)

Arb.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439235

Postby Alaric » September 2nd, 2021, 12:48 pm

moorfield wrote:It was the tone and manner of that particular poster's delivery that was the issue I think, not the message.


The poster we may be thinking of seemingly regarded any criticism of what he grandiosely styled "The HYP Strategy" as akin to blasphemy, taking particular exception to comments that sorting shares by yield was a method that could reliably select dogs and recovery stocks as well as long term high dividend payers. Perhaps by 2021 all the potential dogs and recovery stocks cancelled or cut their dividends in 2020, so a selection by yield now produces some reasonable choices from a limited universe.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439236

Postby moorfield » September 2nd, 2021, 12:52 pm

Arborbridge wrote: I thought we were looking for proHYP candidates for the Peoples Front of HYP?


I thought it was the HYP Peoples Front. :?

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439241

Postby moorfield » September 2nd, 2021, 1:15 pm

Alaric wrote:pyad himself on his rare visits comes across as dogmatic and condescending towards critical comment.



moorfield wrote:
As for pyad, only he can opine on whether Lemonfool has misappropriated what he meant by HYP all those years ago.




To add to what I wrote I am going to stick my neck out here and say that, personally, I think LF has misappropriated what pyad meant by HYP, but obviously that is ultimately up to him.

That's not to say I am a pyad "fanatic" or "acolyte". I am not, and one idea of his I particularly disagree with is strategic ignorance. A better choice of words would have been strategic indolence (which I have used here before). A subtle but important difference that provides enough wiggle room for a lot of the "behaviour" seen on HYPP.

I would call what we have here HYP++ (the tecchies among you will understand what I am getting at... again a subtle but important difference), and it's a great great pity that further development and iteration of various ideas on how it can be practised tend to get stamped on at HYPP.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439245

Postby Arborbridge » September 2nd, 2021, 1:37 pm

moorfield wrote:
Arborbridge wrote: I thought we were looking for proHYP candidates for the Peoples Front of HYP?


I thought it was the HYP Peoples Front. :?


:lol:

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439247

Postby Wizard » September 2nd, 2021, 1:42 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Wizard wrote:PS I do find likening other contributors to the Taliban in rather bad taste. Would you like being labelled as ISIS-HYP? Didn’t think so.


It was in bad taste, but so is the constant sniping at people just because they run an HY portfolio. I was attracted to the term as "Taliban TR" has a nice ring to it but it also conveys the picture of idealogues crashing the board and forcing their own view on others by being disruptive. We must remember that it was the disruptors and snipers with their guerilla warfare which caused the whole trouble on the HYPP board and which led to its decline, such as it is. People left the board due to nitpickers and troublemakers, and I'm sorry to say you might have been viewed as one of them by some, leading to your being blocked by at least one person. Your culminating idea was to suck all posts from the HYPP board by highjacking the discussion on the this board, then suggesting HYPP should be an isolated enclave, a private board, thus ensuring its demise. Thankfully, that didn't work and the HYPP board survived.

Your ISIS-HYP has nothing to recommend it, not even a grain of truth, so I don't think it a valid comparison.


Arb.

So you agree it was in bad taste, but then still go on to repeat it :roll:

It seems "sniping" is the new witchcraft, if you don't like somebody else's view say they are "sniping", no need to justify it just accusing them is enough. Even when I make what I hope is a constructive comment, which the the OP to whom the comment was addressed says they thought useful, still somebody comes along and says I am sniping (though I blocked them some time ago and only saw it when somebody else responded to them).

This is way off topic, but in the interests of clarity here we go, this is my view on HYP.
1. HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) is inappropriate for the accumulation phase, I take onboard IAAG's point re getting comfortable with the approach and associated income stream, rather than just switching as an investor enters the drawdown phase. Personally I do not think that a sufficient justification to outway the downside. That downside is that capital is secondary, in the acumulation phase I consider it the primary objective.
2. HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) by limiting its focus to UK listed shares results in investors not accessing other potentially good opportunities in high yield shares that are listed outside the UK.
3. HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) by ruling out fixed income investments means investors do not have the option of selecting some investments that can provide a less volatile source of income which may be appropriate for some.
4. HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) by making capital secondary to income may not suit an investor who wishes to pass down their capital to their heirs and is willing to sacrafice some income now in order to protect that capital.
5. Notwithstanding the above, while I do not think HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) is right for me, it may be right for some investors and that is their choice which they are entitled to make.

Given the narrow scope defined for the HYPP Board I do think there should be more discussion here than the HYPP Board as that discussion would be free of the limitations of the HYPP Board. But that has never happened and there is no reason to think that will change. I do not care if the HYPP Board flourishes or dwindles to nothing, but I still hope there will be more discussion on this Board where there is scope for it to develop more widely.

My final thought is that I do not support Accrington Stanley, but if I were to watch one of their matches I would still think it perfectly reasonable to offer a view on how they played and what they might do to improve their results in future, without being told I am just a sniper that hates Accrington Stanley or likened to a muderous group of extremists.
Last edited by Wizard on September 2nd, 2021, 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439249

Postby Wizard » September 2nd, 2021, 1:50 pm

seagles wrote:164 views, so far. Not a lot but that is not the point. There is nothing in my post that I would expect a reply about. However, the 12 recs means a lot to me. It means the post was appreciated. Of those 12 there were a few of the regular HYP posters but the majority are, what I would call "lurkers". I am one poster who does not post to gain notoriety I post to pass on information and hope it helps everyone. If I have nothing to add I do not reply.

Similar results to my last full portfolio review post in April. 2395 views, 5 recs, 5 additional posts but all about me being a Grandad and diverting money to Granddaughter going forward (or similar), non about the actual portfolio. Does the lack of posts bother me, no, I post to hopefully help others and show the direction I am going. Currently moving more into Growth IT's, BTW.

My observation with regard to the number of replies your recent post had received was not intended to be critical of you, if you took it that way then I apologise. Rather, it was in the context of the volume of posts on HYPP seeming to be lower these days. Your point regarding lurkers is well made and they may well find value in posts without wishing to comment, but ultimately if there are only lurkers there is nothing to lurk for.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439253

Postby Arborbridge » September 2nd, 2021, 2:00 pm

Wizard wrote:

So you agree it was in bad taste, but then still go on to repeat it :roll:



Why not? Agreeing with you about that doesn't mean I agreeing that I shouldn't have said it.
Repeating it served to explain the allusion which you obviously needed.

Arb.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439254

Postby Arborbridge » September 2nd, 2021, 2:04 pm

Incidentally, last time an attempt was made to suck the life from the HYPP board to HYSS, it failed miserably. In the following few weeks, new posts on the HYPP still comfortably outnumbered HYSS. Whether that is true now, I've no idea.


Arb.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439260

Postby moorfield » September 2nd, 2021, 3:04 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Incidentally, last time an attempt was made to suck the life from the HYPP board to HYSS, it failed miserably. In the following few weeks, new posts on the HYPP still comfortably outnumbered HYSS. Whether that is true now, I've no idea.



I don't think it's a question of sucking the life from HYPP. Let the monks continue their chants over there in peace, nothing wrong with that. It's a question of finding somewhere to let those who want to push, or at least explore, the boundaries of HYP further. As Padders72 pointed out no one owns copyright on what HYP is.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439434

Postby tjh290633 » September 3rd, 2021, 11:50 am

moorfield wrote:
Lootman wrote:A peculiarity with HYP is that, to my knowledge, it really never had much of a life outside of TMF, TLF and Mr Bland's now defunct HYP tipsheet. So the question arises as to what happens to it if discussions dwindle (for whatever reason). Where do the new recruits come from when there is no progress, no debate, no recruiting and nobody spearheading it? And if there is no new blood then it will wither on the vine, not helped by the fact that UK HY shares have been an under-performing class for approaching 15 years now.

In the early days of TLF I suggested that the Board be renamed "Dividend Investing". I still think that would be a better long term bet.




In my view HYPP is a subset of HYSS which is probably the natural home of most visitors here, and yet the "posts" stats don't bear that out at all.

In the early days iirc I suggested that HYPP be a closed/private board ie. folk have to ask to join it - that would give Mods just cause I reckon for excluding the persistent "naysayers" (upon a number of warnings perhaps). Asking everyone to "reapply" before they next post could be done today (technically not difficult). What better test of the guidelines and "HYP" (whatever that is, now) than that?

One effect would certainly be a dwindling of the is-it/isn't-it rows on HYPP, and more "(Stephen Bland's)HYP+my twist on it" discussions on HYSS - and those are the more interesting and useful ones frankly. However it might also put eminent posters (eg. TJH) in a quandary, knowing that they are likely preaching to smaller congregations. Which brings us to your sensible suggestion of renaming it "Dividend Investing".

I am not concerned about the size of my congregation, nor whether they are true believers or heretics. I started on TMF when it was a single board, posted on both as appropriate, and continue to do so. The general principles continue to be applicable to investing for dividends to produce a yield, higher than the market as a whole.

One solution might be to have a forum called Dividend Investing, with discussions in two sub forums, HYP and General. Perhaps another forum for TR Investing. Incidentally there have been HYP boards on other discussion boards, This is Money (now defunct) and ADVFN (moribund).

Back to the cricket.

TJH

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439569

Postby JohnnyCyclops » September 3rd, 2021, 10:14 pm

Wizard wrote:This is way off topic, but in the interests of clarity here we go, this is my view on HYP.
1. HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) is inappropriate for the accumulation phase, I take onboard IAAG's point re getting comfortable with the approach and associated income stream, rather than just switching as an investor enters the drawdown phase. Personally I do not think that a sufficient justification to outway the downside. That downside is that capital is secondary, in the acumulation phase I consider it the primary objective.
2. HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) by limiting its focus to UK listed shares results in investors not accessing other potentially good opportunities in high yield shares that are listed outside the UK.
3. HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) by ruling out fixed income investments means investors do not have the option of selecting some investments that can provide a less volatile source of income which may be appropriate for some.
4. HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) by making capital secondary to income may not suit an investor who wishes to pass down their capital to their heirs and is willing to sacrafice some income now in order to protect that capital.
5. Notwithstanding the above, while I do not think HYP (as defined on the HYPP Board) is right for me, it may be right for some investors and that is their choice which they are entitled to make.


An interesting analysis.

1. I concur (and did earlier with IAAG). Depending on total wealth, and investable funds available, it is possible to "pilot" HYP using only a portion, to 'test the theory'. This is what we've done. I do agree, in the accumulation phase the goal is the largest pot at an acceptable risk.

2. Possibly a legacy of a 20th century world when a focus on local was easiest. Just as I can now access music and video from around the globe at a the touch of a button, why not also access a global range of stocks. My two caveats (for a British investor) is where best to find the base data on foreign stocks and dividends, and do they always understand/accept the tax and FX issues/risks. I keep being charged small FX sums by AJBell for ETF dividends arriving in my SIPP in USD - I'll live with it, but if I built a HYP with 10-15 foreign stocks do I really need that added complexity. Many UK listed firms give exposure to the rest of the world already. VOD, BP, HSBC, BHP, etc.

3. This struck me as a matter of definition. It's almost as if you take the 'portfolio' in HYP to be the investor's entire invested wealth. It's possible for an investor to hold more than one portfolio - a portfolio of HY stocks, a portfolio of tech/growth stocks, a portfolio of fixed income investments, etc. I've sensed that most HYPsters are aren't putting all their eggs in the HYP basket - I'm certainly not.

4. Au contraire. HYP is an alternative to an annuity. HYP will preserve the capital so long as only dividends are withdrawn, so is setup to provide some level of capital (subject to capital value fluctuations) in a way an annuity never will.

5. On that we're agreed.

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Re: HYP Concept waning?

#439571

Postby DiamondEcho » September 3rd, 2021, 10:29 pm

Wizard wrote:My personal view, and this is not an attack on HYP, is that there is very little of substance left to say. A series of posts saying ‘here is my HYP as it stands now’, ‘here is what I just top sliced’, ‘here is what I just topped up’ will after a time fail to inspire much response and I suspect that time has arrived. To me it just seems that it is a subject area where pretty much anything of interest has been said. What might increase discussion again would be a big external ‘shock’ such as the number of dividend cuts due to COVID.


The HYP was intended as a low > no discussion strategy. The rules are set, it more or less runs itself, well in that it points you in the direction re: maintenance that you might wish to go. That's why HYPers aren't here constantly defending it, they have no need to.

I think discussion of it suffers from those you are not willing to take on board the 'do nothing' virtue of it. They are forever over-thinking and thus demanding 'improvements' that - er, then would 'turn us all into day-traders of the global markets', the precise opposite of the intention. Benjamin Graham (The) documented the strategy, Warren Buffett made it legend in the world of finance. Neither were day-traders, fiddlers, short-termists.

FWIW I think (just say) a relative comparative analysis of Shell vs BP - within a HYP - would be entirely on-topic. Or indeed whether either merited replacing with A.N.Other based upon stated metrics. Or whether one that was held currently merited topping up. The initial portfolio is simpler to derive, the maintenance thereafter can raise appropriate and interesting chat. The bringing up of instruments that would never and do not qualify for inclusion in a HYP belong to another strategy.

HYP and it's discussion-place and demands that '''HYP can be anything''' seems to regularly go through these schisms.


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