Phoenix Holdings Dividends

[Dod101]

I am sure the half year results for 2023 must have been reported somewhere but I cannot find them. At any rate, on reviewing my likely dividends for September the other day, I find that Phoenix has pushed payment of its interim dividend from September into late October, 23 October to be precise.

The current yield is chunky at around 10% pa and so is the interim so I find that annoying to say the least. Will help the Company's cash flow though. I am never entirely comfortable with Phoenix I must say but they keep giving!

Dod

[Itsallaguess]

I am sure the half year results for 2023 must have been reported somewhere but I cannot find them.

At any rate, on reviewing my likely dividends for September the other day, I find that Phoenix has pushed payment of its interim dividend from September into late October, 23 October to be precise.

The current yield is chunky at around 10% pa and so is the interim so I find that annoying to say the least. Will help the Company's cash flow though. I am never entirely comfortable with Phoenix I must say but they keep giving!

The Phoenix half-year results aren't released until the 18th of September this year Dod -

https://www.thephoenixgroup.com/investors/financial-calendar/

On the matter regarding shifting dividend-payments, I tend to judge things on a yearly basis in the main, and don't worry so much about the odd month-to-month payment-shift, although when it happens with anything relatively 'chunky' then it can play games with my tracking charts a little.

So long as my Year-on-Year income-trend is gently rising overall and taking these types of payment-shifts in it's stride over the longer term, then that'll do me...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

I am sure the half year results for 2023 must have been reported somewhere but I cannot find them.

At any rate, on reviewing my likely dividends for September the other day, I find that Phoenix has pushed payment of its interim dividend from September into late October, 23 October to be precise.

The current yield is chunky at around 10% pa and so is the interim so I find that annoying to say the least. Will help the Company's cash flow though. I am never entirely comfortable with Phoenix I must say but they keep giving!

The Phoenix half-year results aren't released until the 18th of September this year Dod -

https://www.thephoenixgroup.com/investors/financial-calendar/

On the matter regarding shifting dividend-payments, I tend to judge things on a yearly basis in the main, and don't worry so much about the odd month-to-month payment-shift, although when it happens with anything relatively 'chunky' then it can play games with my tracking charts a little.

So long as my Year-on-Year income-trend is gently rising overall and taking these types of payment-shifts in it's stride over the longer term, then that'll do me...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Thanks. I am obviously getting old. I track my dividends on a monthly basis, although I agree it is the annual figure that matters. My dividends for this year so far are up every month. September may struggle though because Unilever pushed its interim dividend forward by a few days so that its latest dividend was paid on 31 August rather than in September (good!) but, as noted, Phoenix has pushed its payment back by a month until late October (bad!) There is more to it than just my record keeping though because delaying payment by a month mucks up my cashflow but is also not a very shareholder friendly thing for the company to do and could easily indicate that it is trying to squeeze out its cashflow. Never a good sign.

Dod

[monabri]

I too had noticed the 'push-back' in date from my dividend spreadsheet. However, to be fair to Phoenix Group, they did indicate a provisional date ( Sep18th) in March 23.

See page 32.

https://www.thephoenixgroup.com/investo ... entations/

(I searched for 'half' as in half year)

[Itsallaguess]

I track my dividends on a monthly basis, although I agree it is the annual figure that matters.

My dividends for this year so far are up every month. September may struggle though because Unilever pushed its interim dividend forward by a few days so that its latest dividend was paid on 31 August rather than in September (good!) but, as noted, Phoenix has pushed its payment back by a month until late October (bad!)

There is more to it than just my record keeping though because delaying payment by a month mucks up my cashflow but is also not a very shareholder friendly thing for the company to do and could easily indicate that it is trying to squeeze out its cashflow. Never a good sign.

I'm still working and building my income-portfolio, so it's a little different for me, and my situation is also currently working against a dividend-drag headwind as well due to me still having some unsheltered holdings where I need a couple more tax-years to finally get the bulk of my holdings inside my ISA accounts, whilst also carrying out the last of my rotations from single-share HYP holdings to a primarily IT-centric position, so here's a recent snapshot of my rolling twelve-month dividend income with y-axis details removed -




As you can see, there are some months where there's a relative year-on-year drop-off in rolling 12-month income, but on the whole there's been the steady general rise over recent years that's been encouraging to see.

The above chart is purely delivered-income, so there's no forward-looking estimates in this particular data, but what I do know from data captured elsewhere is that the slight drop off over the last couple of months is due to bounce back considerably with October's dividends, so again, the chart will then look quite healthy again from a forward-momentum point of view.

With regards to your comments on potential cash-flow issues arising from odd dividend payment-date changes, as mentioned here with Phoenix, my long-term plan is to incorporate at least a 6-month cash-buffer in my dividend-holding account when I finally stop working, and it might even be 12-months, depending on how things work out, and that plan is to help avoid any cash-flow related issues with odd-ball staggered payments like that, as it should all then hopefully just be a slight admin-related noise going on within that cash buffer, which would hopefully then work itself out inside the allocated buffer-period.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

I track my dividends on a monthly basis, although I agree it is the annual figure that matters.

My dividends for this year so far are up every month. September may struggle though because Unilever pushed its interim dividend forward by a few days so that its latest dividend was paid on 31 August rather than in September (good!) but, as noted, Phoenix has pushed its payment back by a month until late October (bad!)

There is more to it than just my record keeping though because delaying payment by a month mucks up my cashflow but is also not a very shareholder friendly thing for the company to do and could easily indicate that it is trying to squeeze out its cashflow. Never a good sign.

I'm still working and building my income-portfolio, so it's a little different for me, and my situation is also currently working against a dividend-drag headwind as well due to me still having some unsheltered holdings where I need a couple more tax-years to finally get the bulk of my holdings inside my ISA accounts, whilst also carrying out the last of my rotations from single-share HYP holdings to a primarily IT-centric position, so here's a recent snapshot of my rolling twelve-month dividend income with y-axis details removed -




As you can see, there are some months where there's a relative year-on-year drop-off in rolling 12-month income, but on the whole there's been the steady general rise over recent years that's been encouraging to see.

The above chart is purely delivered-income, so there's no forward-looking estimates in this particular data, but what I do know from data captured elsewhere is that the slight drop off over the last couple of months is due to bounce back considerably with October's dividends, so again, the chart will then look quite healthy again from a forward-momentum point of view.

With regards to your comments on potential cash-flow issues arising from odd dividend payment-date changes, as mentioned here with Phoenix, my long-term plan is to incorporate at least a 6-month cash-buffer in my dividend-holding account when I finally stop working, and it might even be 12-months, depending on how things work out, and that plan is to help avoid any cash-flow related issues with odd-ball staggered payments like that, as it should all then hopefully just be a slight admin-related noise going on within that cash buffer, which would hopefully then work itself out inside the allocated buffer-period.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Indeed. I too have a significant cash buffer so the cashflow aspect does not really matter, except these days with reasonably good interest rates on cash, it does, once again. In fact I generate more dividends than I spend on day to day expenses, but that is not the point. I like dividends as soon as possible and it irks me that the likely big dividend from Phoenix has been delayed by a month. Anyway, no point in going on about it.

Dod

[Arborbridge]

I'm still working and building my income-portfolio, so it's a little different for me, and my situation is also currently working against a dividend-drag headwind as well due to me still having some unsheltered holdings where I need a couple more tax-years to finally get the bulk of my holdings inside my ISA accounts, whilst also carrying out the last of my rotations from single-share HYP holdings to a primarily IT-centric position, so here's a recent snapshot of my rolling twelve-month dividend income with y-axis details removed -




As you can see, there are some months where there's a relative year-on-year drop-off in rolling 12-month income, but on the whole there's been the steady general rise over recent years that's been encouraging to see.

The above chart is purely delivered-income, so there's no forward-looking estimates in this particular data, but what I do know from data captured elsewhere is that the slight drop off over the last couple of months is due to bounce back considerably with October's dividends, so again, the chart will then look quite healthy again from a forward-momentum point of view.

With regards to your comments on potential cash-flow issues arising from odd dividend payment-date changes, as mentioned here with Phoenix, my long-term plan is to incorporate at least a 6-month cash-buffer in my dividend-holding account when I finally stop working, and it might even be 12-months, depending on how things work out, and that plan is to help avoid any cash-flow related issues with odd-ball staggered payments like that, as it should all then hopefully just be a slight admin-related noise going on within that cash buffer, which would hopefully then work itself out inside the allocated buffer-period.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I suppose that chart show real income - or is it income per unit? Either way, it is incredibly smooth. I've never plotted mine as a 12-monthly rolling income, but perhaps I should to see how it compares. My 5 month rolling is very much a saw-toothed affair.


Arb.

[Itsallaguess]

I suppose that chart shows real income - or is it income per unit?

Either way, it is incredibly smooth.

It is Arb - I capture received dividends per month, aggregated from all three of my accounts, and I then separately capture that data on a rolling twelve-month basis to create the chart.

I've never plotted mine as a 12-monthly rolling income, but perhaps I should to see how it compares.

My 5 month rolling is very much a saw-toothed affair.

If you've got the monthly data then I think it should be a simple exercise to create a rolling twelve-month chart, so I'd certainly be interested in seeing how yours would look for the past few years or so if you were happy to give it a go, and if you could split rolling twelve-month income charts out for your HYP / ARBIT / OEIC accounts, then they would make a good addition to your existing HYP / ARBIT / OEIC threads as well...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Arborbridge]

I suppose that chart shows real income - or is it income per unit?

Either way, it is incredibly smooth.

It is Arb - I capture received dividends per month, aggregated from all three of my accounts, and I then separately capture that data on a rolling twelve-month basis to create the chart.

I've never plotted mine as a 12-monthly rolling income, but perhaps I should to see how it compares.

My 5 month rolling is very much a saw-toothed affair.

If you've got the monthly data then I think it should be a simple exercise to create a rolling twelve-month chart, so I'd certainly be interested in seeing how yours would look for the past few years or so if you were happy to give it a go, and if you could split rolling twelve-month income charts out for your HYP / ARBIT / OEIC accounts, then they would make a good addition to your existing HYP / ARBIT / OEIC threads as well...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I might find time to do the three-streams (actual £s) as 12 month rolling, but splitting out the streams separately now would involve more digging. But we have an idea of the probably result from the charts I do of div in pence per unit. Qualitatively, it would be similar, I think.

Arb.

[TUK020]

I track my dividends on a monthly basis, although I agree it is the annual figure that matters.

My dividends for this year so far are up every month. September may struggle though because Unilever pushed its interim dividend forward by a few days so that its latest dividend was paid on 31 August rather than in September (good!) but, as noted, Phoenix has pushed its payment back by a month until late October (bad!)

There is more to it than just my record keeping though because delaying payment by a month mucks up my cashflow but is also not a very shareholder friendly thing for the company to do and could easily indicate that it is trying to squeeze out its cashflow. Never a good sign.

I'm still working and building my income-portfolio, so it's a little different for me, and my situation is also currently working against a dividend-drag headwind as well due to me still having some unsheltered holdings where I need a couple more tax-years to finally get the bulk of my holdings inside my ISA accounts, whilst also carrying out the last of my rotations from single-share HYP holdings to a primarily IT-centric position, so here's a recent snapshot of my rolling twelve-month dividend income with y-axis details removed -




As you can see, there are some months where there's a relative year-on-year drop-off in rolling 12-month income, but on the whole there's been the steady general rise over recent years that's been encouraging to see.

The above chart is purely delivered-income, so there's no forward-looking estimates in this particular data, but what I do know from data captured elsewhere is that the slight drop off over the last couple of months is due to bounce back considerably with October's dividends, so again, the chart will then look quite healthy again from a forward-momentum point of view.

With regards to your comments on potential cash-flow issues arising from odd dividend payment-date changes, as mentioned here with Phoenix, my long-term plan is to incorporate at least a 6-month cash-buffer in my dividend-holding account when I finally stop working, and it might even be 12-months, depending on how things work out, and that plan is to help avoid any cash-flow related issues with odd-ball staggered payments like that, as it should all then hopefully just be a slight admin-related noise going on within that cash buffer, which would hopefully then work itself out inside the allocated buffer-period.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

IAAG
I can understand that you would want to remove the y axis scale, but without the zero line identified, this chart is completely meaningless
tuk020

[Itsallaguess]

IAAG,

I can understand that you would want to remove the y axis scale, but without the zero line identified, this chart is completely meaningless

It can't be that meaningless, because the income-related y-axis doesn't contain a zero line even on the original chart!

Joking aside, my chart was posted in relation to a discussion around the potential lumpiness of month-to-month payments, and showing that distinct per-month figures, for me at least, were of less importance than the general year-on-year trend, both in terms of stability and broad growth, both of which, as someone who intends to rely on this dividend income once I stop work, are very important for me to track over the long-term.

On that basis, I think the chart helps to show the sort of long-term stability and growth that I'm hoping for, and where potential month-to-month dividends shifts, of which there are quite a few, don't really matter too much over the long-term so long as you've got an adequate cash-flow strategy in place to adequately cope with them...

I agree that it might be a more interesting chart if the y-axis were detailed, but in the context of the above specific considerations, I hope the removal of those details for valid privacy reasons might still provide an interesting additional data-point to that discussion.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

I do not think that IAAG’s chart is meaningless. It shows what I think was intended, the fact that over the course of a year, dividend income has tended to increase, notwithstanding the ups and downs of income month by month.

Personally I like to track income monthly just to compare it with the previous year. I put little or no new money into my portfolio so I am getting a direct comparison of one year or one month against another. For the first eight months of the current year, I am up each and every month except for August and that only because I had a biggish special from Caledonia last year which was not repeated. Overall though, even including that special, I am ahead on the year to date figure, not by inflation alas, but about 6%.

That was the point of my original comment, the fact that Phoenix Holdings has pushed its interim forward by one month will muck up the September figure and as it can be expected to be over £1000 for me it is significant. Never mind. I do not live month to month so it is not that significant.

Dod

[TUK020]

IAAG,

I can understand that you would want to remove the y axis scale, but without the zero line identified, this chart is completely meaningless

It can't be that meaningless, because the income-related y-axis doesn't contain a zero line even on the original chart!

Joking aside, my chart was posted in relation to a discussion around the potential lumpiness of month-to-month payments, and showing that distinct per-month figures, for me at least, were of less importance than the general year-on-year trend, both in terms of stability and broad growth, both of which, as someone who intends to rely on this dividend income once I stop work, are very important for me to track over the long-term.

On that basis, I think the chart helps to show the sort of long-term stability and growth that I'm hoping for, and where potential month-to-month dividends shifts, of which there are quite a few, don't really matter too much over the long-term so long as you've got an adequate cash-flow strategy in place to adequately cope with them...

I agree that it might be a more interesting chart if the y-axis were detailed, but in the context of the above specific considerations, I hope the removal of those details for valid privacy reasons might still provide an interesting additional data-point to that discussion.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

The vertical lines do not stop at the bottom horizontal line, which is the usual convention for displaying a 'false zero' bottom horizontal line. The point I was trying to make is that I don't know the 'y' axis graduations represent the range 0-2000 (lumpy but increasing fast) or 1700-1720 (very smooth, but pretty much static). Numbers chosen at random. Without any sense of where the 0 point is, it doesn't convey any information about lumpiness. Not trying to be pedantic, but just saying I genuinely cannot make any sense from the chart

[Itsallaguess]

The vertical lines [of the chart] do not stop at the bottom horizontal line, which is the usual convention for displaying a 'false zero' bottom horizontal line.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't know the 'y' axis graduations represent the range 0-2000 (lumpy but increasing fast) or 1700-1720 (very smooth, but pretty much static). Numbers chosen at random.

Without any sense of where the 0 point is, it doesn't convey any information about lumpiness. Not trying to be pedantic, but just saying I genuinely cannot make any sense from the chart

Of course, I fully accept that if the graduations were denoting a 1700-1720 shift, then the chart might be taken to be relatively meaningless, and given that we both agree on that, I'd perhaps like to think that I'd not have presented the chart into the conversation if that were the case, and credit for that might have been accepted as already given, rather than me having to ask for it...

In the absence of the granular private data that would satisfy you, I hope it might suffice to say that the graduation marks denote more significance than that...

Either way - specific amounts were not the topic of the conversation when the chart was introduced. It was that over long periods, prior-year monthly-income comparisons are quite often lower than previous years, but generally, steady upward trends in rolling 12-month income can still be experienced, and I believe the chart as presented, even absent of the private data that you're discussing, can show that to be the case...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[monabri]

The vertical lines [of the chart] do not stop at the bottom horizontal line, which is the usual convention for displaying a 'false zero' bottom horizontal line.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't know the 'y' axis graduations represent the range 0-2000 (lumpy but increasing fast) or 1700-1720 (very smooth, but pretty much static). Numbers chosen at random.

Without any sense of where the 0 point is, it doesn't convey any information about lumpiness. Not trying to be pedantic, but just saying I genuinely cannot make any sense from the chart

Of course, I fully accept that if the graduations were denoting a 1700-1720 shift, then the chart might be taken to be relatively meaningless, and given that we both agree on that, I'd perhaps like to think that I'd not have presented the chart into the conversation if that were the case, and credit for that might have been accepted as already given, rather than me having to ask for it...

In the absence of the granular private data that would satisfy you, I hope it might suffice to say that the graduation marks denote more significance than that...

Either way - specific amounts were not the topic of the conversation when the chart was introduced. It was that over long periods, prior-year monthly-income comparisons are quite often lower than previous years, but generally, steady upward trends in rolling 12-month income can still be experienced, and I believe the chart as presented, even absent of the private data that you're discussing, can show that to be the case...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I share TUK020's viewpoint for the simple reason you state you are still building your income portfolio. So, more money added should ( hopefully) give rise to a bigger income, otherwise, why bother? Of course, the data might be unitised ..?

Sorry to be negative!

[ayshfm1]

I noticed the absence as well so went looking for why, it appears there is some new accounting standard they have to adhere to and it's hard.

Why is it hard?
Why do they need extra time?

Call me suspicious but I don't like it one bit, be very interested in the results when they come out.

[Dod101]

I noticed the absence as well so went looking for why, it appears there is some new accounting standard they have to adhere to and it's hard.

Why is it hard?
Why do they need extra time?

Call me suspicious but I don't like it one bit, be very interested in the results when they come out.

I agree with that. I have never been entirely happy with Phoenix Holdings. They are an amalgam of a large number of second rate UK insurers and have added a few more complications like Standard Life since then. The new accounting standard is IFRS 17 which other insurers have managed to report so why not Phoenix?

Results due on 18 September I think.

Dod