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Boeing

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AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Boeing

#357735

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » November 18th, 2020, 1:20 pm

Boeing's 737 Max cleared to fly in the US after crashes
Existing aircraft will need to be modified before going back into service, with changes to their design.

Safety regulator, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), said the clearance would not allow the plane to "return immediately" to the skies.


AiY

richfool
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Re: Boeing

#357744

Postby richfool » November 18th, 2020, 1:37 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:Boeing's 737 Max cleared to fly in the US after crashes
Existing aircraft will need to be modified before going back into service, with changes to their design.

Safety regulator, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), said the clearance would not allow the plane to "return immediately" to the skies.


AiY

Perhaps they will use the plane to shuttle redundant flight crews back to their own countries!

Though, if they fit them out with deep freezers, might there be some work for these planes (and crews) transporting all these millions of doses of Covid vaccinations around the world?

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Re: Boeing

#357829

Postby dspp » November 18th, 2020, 4:39 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:Boeing's 737 Max cleared to fly in the US after crashes
Existing aircraft will need to be modified before going back into service, with changes to their design.

Safety regulator, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), said the clearance would not allow the plane to "return immediately" to the skies.


AiY


But not yet the Canadians, or EASA, or UK or Chinese or .......

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/s ... 46585.html

""Transport Canada safety experts continue their independent validation process to determine whether to approve the proposed changes to the aircraft. We expect this process to conclude very soon. However, there will be differences between what the FAA has approved today, and what Canada will require for its operators. These differences will include additional procedures on the flight deck and pre-flight, as well as differences in training.

"The commercial flight restrictions for the operation of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft in Canadian airspace remain in effect and will not be lifted until the department is fully satisfied that all its safety concerns have been addressed, and that enhanced flight crew procedures and training are in place in Canada.""


- dspp

dspp
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Re: Boeing

#359874

Postby dspp » November 25th, 2020, 10:38 am

""The EASA Proposed Airworthiness Directive requires the same changes to the aircraft as the FAA, meaning that there will be no software or technical differences between the aircraft operated by the United States operators and by the EASA member states operators"

"However, EASA’s requirements differ from the FAA in two main respects. EASA explicitly allows flight crews to intervene to stop a stick shaker from continuing to vibrate once it has been erroneously activated by the system, to prevent this distracting the crew. EASA also, for the time being, mandates that the aircraft’s autopilot should not be used for certain types of high-precision landings. The latter is expected to be a short-term restriction."

"EASA has also agreed with Boeing that the manufacturer will work to even further increase the resilience of the aircraft systems to AoA sensor failures so as to further enhance the safety of the aircraft. Boeing will also conduct a complementary Human Factor assessment of its crew alerting systems within the next 12 months, with the aim of potentially upgrading these to a more modern design approach.""


https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and ... ng-737-max

FWIW, "with the aim of potentially upgrading these to a more modern design approach." = Boeing need to start designing like Airbus :)

- dspp

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Boeing

#359886

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » November 25th, 2020, 11:12 am

Boeing's 737 Max is not out of the woods yet then.

It is going to be interesting to follow the vehicles return to service and see how many step on board.

AiY

Lootman
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Re: Boeing

#360085

Postby Lootman » November 25th, 2020, 8:23 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Ryan Air are going to fly them as soon as they can. They have said that you will not know as a passenger what aircraft you will be flying on in advance.

Airlines switch equipment around all the time. But if you put your flight number into flightaware.com you can see what plane type was used on that routing today and every day going back. If you pay for the premium version you can see the exact plane used from the tail number. That is a fairly decent way of estimating what plane you will be on.

Also swapping plane types at short notice can cause problems with crew, what gates can be used, and may lead to vacant seats or over-booked planes. So I think they may be bluffing to a large degree.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Boeing

#360116

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » November 25th, 2020, 11:31 pm

A Quick Crash Course on How to Recognise a Boeing 737 Max - Pun intended :twisted:

Image

  1. The flight crew will have broad smiles a mile wide and offer you something very strong as you walk on the vehicle :o
  2. The wing tips will have a double "winglet" - see sketch
  3. The rear engine cowling will be serrated
  4. The rear of the vehicle will not be rounded but more or an angular shape
AiY

dspp
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Re: Boeing

#360172

Postby dspp » November 26th, 2020, 9:27 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:A Quick Crash Course on How to Recognise a Boeing 737 Max - Pun intended :twisted:

  1. The flight crew will have broad smiles a mile wide and offer you something very strong as you walk on the vehicle :o
  2. The wing tips will have a double "winglet" - see sketch
  3. The rear engine cowling will be serrated
  4. The rear of the vehicle will not be rounded but more or an angular shape
AiY


Image

Which serration, by the way, was done primarily for marketing-to-passengers reasons as the fuel gains that are obtainable on the larger engines by this feature are apparently immaterial on this smaller engine.
regards, dspp

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Boeing

#362652

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » December 3rd, 2020, 5:06 pm

Boeing 737 Max sees first firm order since crashes
Ryanair has placed an order for 75 more Boeing 737 Max aircraft ...
Neither side disclosed the exact price that Ryanair will pay for the planes, but the airline will benefit from what the firms described as a "modest" discount on the cost.
...
according to Mr O'Leary. The plane was brilliant, and whatever you called it, passengers would want to fly on it


You couldn't pay me to fly on it.

AiY

richfool
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Re: Boeing

#362662

Postby richfool » December 3rd, 2020, 5:27 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:Boeing 737 Max sees first firm order since crashes
Ryanair has placed an order for 75 more Boeing 737 Max aircraft ...
Neither side disclosed the exact price that Ryanair will pay for the planes, but the airline will benefit from what the firms described as a "modest" discount on the cost.
...
according to Mr O'Leary. The plane was brilliant, and whatever you called it, passengers would want to fly on it


You couldn't pay me to fly on it.

AiY

I would guess O'Leary got a fantastic deal on it!!

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Re: Boeing

#362683

Postby richfool » December 3rd, 2020, 6:26 pm

dspp wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:A Quick Crash Course on How to Recognise a Boeing 737 Max - Pun intended :twisted:

  1. The flight crew will have broad smiles a mile wide and offer you something very strong as you walk on the vehicle :o
  2. The wing tips will have a double "winglet" - see sketch
  3. The rear engine cowling will be serrated
  4. The rear of the vehicle will not be rounded but more or an angular shape
AiY


Image

Which serration, by the way, was done primarily for marketing-to-passengers reasons as the fuel gains that are obtainable on the larger engines by this feature are apparently immaterial on this smaller engine.
regards, dspp

So the one to avoid is the Max 8 with the serrated engine cowling and the double winglet?

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Re: Boeing

#362685

Postby Lootman » December 3rd, 2020, 6:39 pm

richfool wrote:So the one to avoid is the Max 8 with the serrated engine cowling and the double winglet?

To be safe you really need to avoid any airline that operates one, since you could always suffer a last-minute equipment swap from a non-Max 737 to a Max. Or even from an A320 to a Max if your airline operates a dual fleet. It will be interesting to see if airlines waive all change fees if you decide at the last minute you don't want to board in a situation like that.

If you are worried then choose EasyJet over RyanAir, JetBlue over SouthWest or Alaskan, Delta over American, and so on.

richfool
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Re: Boeing

#362690

Postby richfool » December 3rd, 2020, 6:55 pm

Lootman wrote:
richfool wrote:So the one to avoid is the Max 8 with the serrated engine cowling and the double winglet?

To be safe you really need to avoid any airline that operates one, since you could always suffer a last-minute equipment swap from a non-Max 737 to a Max. Or even from an A320 to a Max if your airline operates a dual fleet. It will be interesting to see if airlines waive all change fees if you decide at the last minute you don't want to board in a situation like that.

If you are worried then choose EasyJet over RyanAir, JetBlue over SouthWest or Alaskan, Delta over American, and so on.

The Airlines I might have to watch, if I ever get out to the Far East again, will be: Thai Smile, Thai Air Asia, NOK Air and maybe Thai Air.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Boeing

#362691

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » December 3rd, 2020, 7:00 pm

richfool wrote:
dspp wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:A Quick Crash Course on How to Recognise a Boeing 737 Max - Pun intended :twisted:

  1. The flight crew will have broad smiles a mile wide and offer you something very strong as you walk on the vehicle :o
  2. The wing tips will have a double "winglet" - see sketch
  3. The rear engine cowling will be serrated
  4. The rear of the vehicle will not be rounded but more or an angular shape
AiY


Image

Which serration, by the way, was done primarily for marketing-to-passengers reasons as the fuel gains that are obtainable on the larger engines by this feature are apparently immaterial on this smaller engine.
regards, dspp

So the one to avoid is the Max 8 with the serrated engine cowling and the double winglet?

Yes. The 737 Max is vehicle 1 in the diagram.

AiY

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Re: Boeing

#362729

Postby dspp » December 3rd, 2020, 10:16 pm

Lootman wrote:
richfool wrote:So the one to avoid is the Max 8 with the serrated engine cowling and the double winglet?

To be safe you really need to avoid any airline that operates one, since you could always suffer a last-minute equipment swap from a non-Max 737 to a Max. Or even from an A320 to a Max if your airline operates a dual fleet. It will be interesting to see if airlines waive all change fees if you decide at the last minute you don't want to board in a situation like that.

If you are worried then choose EasyJet over RyanAir, JetBlue over SouthWest or Alaskan, Delta over American, and so on.


Correct.

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Re: Boeing

#362767

Postby torata » December 4th, 2020, 12:47 am

Lootman wrote:If you are worried then choose EasyJet over RyanAir, JetBlue over SouthWest or Alaskan, Delta over American, and so on.


There I was thinking "do I have the chutzpah to ask Lootman to cover the airlines that I might fly ;) ?" and lo! and behold...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_and_deliveries

Wikipedia never ceases to amaze me.

torata

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Boeing

#362872

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » December 4th, 2020, 11:32 am

Lootman wrote:
richfool wrote:So the one to avoid is the Max 8 with the serrated engine cowling and the double winglet?

To be safe you really need to avoid any airline that operates one, since you could always suffer a last-minute equipment swap from a non-Max 737 to a Max. Or even from an A320 to a Max if your airline operates a dual fleet. It will be interesting to see if airlines waive all change fees if you decide at the last minute you don't want to board in a situation like that.

If you are worried then choose EasyJet over RyanAir, JetBlue over SouthWest or Alaskan, Delta over American, and so on.

I think many will have to. I think that newsflow in the modern world of the internet and the often negative press it can convey will make some airlines nervous about this. I am not convinced RyanAir's decision to purchase additional Max vehicles is a game changer for Boeing. RyanAir is a budget airline and its very existence is down to price. It operates a single supplier fleet to keep maintenance and training costs minimised. That's as much a risk to RyanAir as it is a benefit to Boeing.

AiY

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Boeing

#367046

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » December 17th, 2020, 2:22 pm

Boeing hires its own pilots to smooth return of 737
Aerospace giant Boeing is reportedly hiring 160 pilots to be embedded at airlines in a bid to help the 737 Max return to smooth service.

...

The strategy also includes 24/7 surveillance of 737 Max flights globally and talking points for flight attendants to reassure passengers.

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Re: Boeing

#367251

Postby Heinous » December 18th, 2020, 8:58 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:I am not convinced RyanAir's decision to purchase additional Max vehicles is a game changer for Boeing. RyanAir is a budget airline and its very existence is down to price. It operates a single supplier fleet to keep maintenance and training costs minimised. That's as much a risk to RyanAir as it is a benefit to Boeing.


The nature of Ryanair's business - even the quality of it - is immaterial. The issue here is about confidence in Boeing's 737 Max. And the appearance of confidence.

Emotion and snobbery aside, Ryanair is the biggest European customer for the 737, and in the top ten worldwide. Their order, doubtless at 'Mate's rates', was timed to assist Boeing. The favour will be returned. But don't underestimate the significance of a post-covid purchase of 75 planes marked 737-820. Remember that we don't know the terms of the deal, but you can bet that Boeing have shouldered much - if not all - of the risks. They understand PR and know it has to be paid for.

Incidentally, virtually all narrow-body-plane users have single-manufacturer fleets, the only exceptions being airlines who buy whatever's cheapest (they won't be buying MAX for a while), and some legacy flag-bearers who don't care about the costs of a dual fleet because their customers don't care what they pay, brand is all. And even among them, the trend is towards single type fleets, as the cost savings of fleet management (and pilot management) are so high. You can always get up-to-the-minute fleet info on airlines' Wikipedia pages.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Boeing

#367346

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » December 18th, 2020, 11:58 am

Heinous wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:I am not convinced RyanAir's decision to purchase additional Max vehicles is a game changer for Boeing. RyanAir is a budget airline and its very existence is down to price. It operates a single supplier fleet to keep maintenance and training costs minimised. That's as much a risk to RyanAir as it is a benefit to Boeing.


The nature of Ryanair's business - even the quality of it - is immaterial. The issue here is about confidence in Boeing's 737 Max. And the appearance of confidence.

Emotion and snobbery aside, Ryanair is the biggest European customer for the 737, and in the top ten worldwide. Their order, doubtless at 'Mate's rates', was timed to assist Boeing. The favour will be returned. But don't underestimate the significance of a post-covid purchase of 75 planes marked 737-820. Remember that we don't know the terms of the deal, but you can bet that Boeing have shouldered much - if not all - of the risks. They understand PR and know it has to be paid for.

Incidentally, virtually all narrow-body-plane users have single-manufacturer fleets, the only exceptions being airlines who buy whatever's cheapest (they won't be buying MAX for a while), and some legacy flag-bearers who don't care about the costs of a dual fleet because their customers don't care what they pay, brand is all. And even among them, the trend is towards single type fleets, as the cost savings of fleet management (and pilot management) are so high. You can always get up-to-the-minute fleet info on airlines' Wikipedia pages.

Welcome to TLF. Thank you for your dismissal of my immaterial description of Ryanair. I shall of course ensure I do not use any language which could be misconstrued as emotional or indeed snob like in future posts.

Regrettably I stand by my comment that the purchase of 75 aircraft does not indicate any sort of game changer for Boeing.

AiY


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