Respirators (i.e. intensive care ventilators)

[geoff1309]

Is this good time to invest on respirators , but can't find a company in the uk listed on the FTSE in put would be welcome

[dspp]

Is this good time to invest on respirators , but can't find a company in the uk listed on the FTSE in put would be welcome

In approximately 9-months time the world will have a 20x oversupply of these, being put into storage (hopefully never to be used again). In the meantime the plans are being distributed to every contract manufacturer governments can reach in every country. Why on earth put money into this ?

regards, dspp

[monabri]

Of course, these companies will all be ISO approved suppliers manufacturing critical equipment and they will have undergone full training in assembly and QA matters....?

[Howard]

Of course, these companies will all be ISO approved suppliers manufacturing critical equipment and they will have undergone full training in assembly and QA matters....?

Surely we don't have to go through a bureaucratic approach. Be like the Chinese who can build a hospital in a week.

Creative thinking is required. There must be a basic design which the government is supplying manufacturers. So long as the manufactured products meet the spec this is fine. In WW2 we didn't insist on six month testing before a new Spitfire was approved.

If I have to go to an ICU I'd rather be on a basic new ventilator that wait six months for boxes to be ticked !

regards

Howard

[dspp]

Of course, these companies will all be ISO approved suppliers manufacturing critical equipment and they will have undergone full training in assembly and QA matters....?

Surely we don't have to go through a bureaucratic approach. Be like the Chinese who can build a hospital in a week.

Creative thinking is required. There must be a basic design which the government is supplying manufacturers. So long as the manufactured products meet the spec this is fine. In WW2 we didn't insist on six month testing before a new Spitfire was approved.

If I have to go to an ICU I'd rather be on a basic new ventilator that wait six months for boxes to be ticked !

regards

Howard

It took over two years for the first Spitfires to be introduced. We likely do not have that luxury of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire

I am sure folk are working hard, and carefully.

regards, dspp

[Howard]

Of course, these companies will all be ISO approved suppliers manufacturing critical equipment and they will have undergone full training in assembly and QA matters....?

Surely we don't have to go through a bureaucratic approach. Be like the Chinese who can build a hospital in a week.

Creative thinking is required. There must be a basic design which the government is supplying manufacturers. So long as the manufactured products meet the spec this is fine. In WW2 we didn't insist on six month testing before a new Spitfire was approved.

If I have to go to an ICU I'd rather be on a basic new ventilator that wait six months for boxes to be ticked !

regards

Howard

It took over two years for the first Spitfires to be introduced. We likely do not have that luxury of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire

I am sure folk are working hard, and carefully.

regards, dspp

Perhaps I should have said we didn't have to wait six months before each new version of the Spitfire was produced. The Spitfire went through many modifications and each was produced very rapidly.

I earned my generous pension by motivating teams to re-engineer both manufacturing processes and more recently service processes to demanding standards. It is amazing how quickly something can be achieved to very high standards if the will is there.

regards

Howard

[Howard]

By the way,dspp, if you do the research, you will see that the UK pioneered the transfer of technology from the motor industry to the aeronautical industry to build Spitfires in a similar way to the respirator technology transfer being suggested now.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_shadow_factories

regards

Howard

[dspp]

By the way,dspp, if you do the research, you will see that the UK pioneered the transfer of technology from the motor industry to the aeronautical industry to build Spitfires in a similar way to the respirator technology transfer being suggested now.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_shadow_factories

regards

Howard

I know exactly how it was done. I knew someone who started life moving the bits between factories, before going on to fly the things (and other types) during the war.

As I said I have no doubt people are working very hard to figure out a way of making them quickly. The trickiest bit will be sourcing components for those elements of the supply chain that have pretty much vanished from the UK. A few politicians are in for a fact-based surprise about how Reality works in my opinion.

regards, dspp

[Howard]

By the way,dspp, if you do the research, you will see that the UK pioneered the transfer of technology from the motor industry to the aeronautical industry to build Spitfires in a similar way to the respirator technology transfer being suggested now.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_shadow_factories

regards

Howard

As I said I have no doubt people are working very hard to figure out a way of making them quickly. The trickiest bit will be sourcing components for those elements of the supply chain that have pretty much vanished from the UK. A few politicians are in for a fact-based surprise about how Reality works in my opinion.

regards, dspp

Yes, I think I share your view. I asked one of my offspring how difficult it would be to make respirators in volume in the current situation and they thought it would be “relatively easy” using their in-house capabilities and current subcontractors and their own electronic experts to tweak circuits to deliver the controls required.

They are in a senior management position in a high tech engineering company ...... but it is owned and based in Switzerland .

If UK firms do have a problem, perhaps that will confirm the point you are making?

Regards

Howard

[flyer61]

Have any of you guys worn a respirator? Tried to work in one? It a'int going to happen. Better face masks but not respirators.

Are the halcyon days of the AR5.....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAD

[Howard]

Have any of you guys worn a respirator? Tried to work in one? It a'int going to happen. Better face masks but not respirators.

Are the halcyon days of the AR5.....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAD

I think they are more like these:

https://hackaday.com/2020/03/12/ultimat ... entilator/

regards

Howard

[dspp]

Have any of you guys worn a respirator? Tried to work in one? It a'int going to happen. Better face masks but not respirators.

Are the halcyon days of the AR5.....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAD

I know exactly what you mean, as I have done my fair share of time working in a respirator, and other related things that are just as much a PITA.

That was why I intercepted the original post by geoff, and retitled it from "Respirators" to "Respirators (i.e. intensive care ventilators)" to get the terminology correct. Well, I tried to, but was being a bit of an admin vortex at the time and didn't retitle the whole thread just some of the posts. I have now fixed it, apologies for allowing that error to proliferate.

regards, dspp

[flyer61]

Argh...I see said the blind man!

[UncleEbenezer]

If I have to go to an ICU I'd rather be on a basic new ventilator that wait six months for boxes to be ticked !

Howard

Yes, but that's not really how the NHS works. NHS is ruled by lawyers and bureaucrats, and if your non-compliant ventilator saves just 99% of patients (surely a better success rate than the NHS), that 1% is still a big scandal with lawsuits and senior jobs at risk.

Now someone selling them unregulated direct to the public might be interesting. I wonder what searching online for a ventilator might turn up?

[Howard]

If I have to go to an ICU I'd rather be on a basic new ventilator that wait six months for boxes to be ticked !

Howard

Yes, but that's not really how the NHS works. NHS is ruled by lawyers and bureaucrats, and if your non-compliant ventilator saves just 99% of patients (surely a better success rate than the NHS), that 1% is still a big scandal with lawsuits and senior jobs at risk.

In a crisis like this, you have to change the NHS rules. But obviously not take risks with safety.

I have been involved in an analogous situation in the last two days. Obviously the example I am going to give is very simple compared with the NHS problem but hopefully it shows how it is possible to react quickly.

I belong to a lunch club for retired people with a lot of members, many older with health problems. We were due to meet at the local golf club for the monthly lunch on Monday. We canceled this (and future lunches) last week.

This and other cancelations reduced the golf club caterers’ business to virtually zero in a week! A couple of us on the committee felt very concerned at destroying a family run business. So yesterday we asked the owner/chef if he would consider preparing lunches which could be delivered to members who would rather not go to crowded supermarkets. And offer a fresh food delivery service.

The caterer was incredibly nimble and we quickly produced flyers offering this service to all our members and, of course, at our suggestion, to all the golf club members (more than 500 people). The catering operation meets all the food hygiene requirements for the delivery service.

The project launched this evening. The first (of hopefully many) orders has been received and will be delivered on Friday. And judging by a sample reaction, the turnover and profitability of the new operation may match the old!

Yes, this looks easy, changing the direction of a small business in two days. But in my career I met lots of managers who would still be arguing that you can’t change the status quo. They have to be challenged - unless they are running a competitor!

I hope those running the NHS impress us with the speed that they address the coronavirus threat. And producing, testing, staffing and commissioning ventilators safely and quickly can’t be that difficult.

regards

Howard

[gryffron]

It is amazing how quickly something can be achieved to very high standards if the will is there.

And money. If the money is there.

That hasn't gone away. Look at some of the stuff that was produced at lightning speed for the Falklands war. Blank cheque = Lightning fast results.

As we engineers always say: You can have it quickly, cheaply, or working reliably. Pick any two.

Gryff